Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had an issue come up in a game yesterday, was playing Lizardmen vs WoC, and had a challenge between my scar-vet on a carnosaur and the opposing general. The first round of the challenge, my scar-vet got slaughtered and the carnosaur rolled a 4 on the monstrous reaction table, which says it can't move, which isn't currently a problem because it is still in combat. Next round, his general whiffs, and the carnosaur bites him in half, gaining permanent Frenzy. Seeing this, his unit breaks and runs, leading to the rules issue. According to the monstrous reaction result, the carnosaur can't move or pursue, however, according to frenzy, it must pursue and has to charge if able.

So which would take priority?

I would play it as Grr takes presidence as you most not move for the remainder of the game.

Frenzy makes it so that you can not choose to restrain pursuit and must choose pursuit/overrun, but Grr over rides this by removing any selection from the Flee and Pursue sub phase

That's a pretty decent one. I'd say where they don't overlap they are both in effect. Otherwise, the last one that took effect wins. I.e., GRR.

Like if someone casts a spell on your giving you flight, then subsequently someone else casts a spell that says you can't move, you can't move. Because it came after and thus takes precedence as it is newer. If anything cared, you still have the Fly special rule, but you just can't use it (though oddly, something, like heaven spells, would do more dmg to you even though you aren't actually moving, because you technically are Flying).

 DukeRustfield wrote:
That's a pretty decent one. I'd say where they don't overlap they are both in effect. Otherwise, the last one that took effect wins. I.e., GRR.
.

In that case, the frenzy would win, because it took effect the round after the Grr..

If he didn't cause a wound before that I suppose.

in a permissive rule-set, a specific restriction on doing something outweighs a specific permission to do something.

in this case you cannot pursue as you are not permitted to move, and pursuit is most certainly a type of movement.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
in a permissive rule-set, a specific restriction on doing something outweighs a specific permission to do something.

in this case you cannot pursue as you are not permitted to move, and pursuit is most certainly a type of movement.

Must pursue is a specific type of movement. Cannot move is a general restriction. Must pursue is specific.

Must pursue, even if you cannot otherwise move, would be more specific.

grr is a specific restriction though. cannot move under any circumstance is a specific restriction.

it also states it specifically in the GRR result that 'it will not pursue fleeing enemies'.

brb p106

Is that to me? I'm aware it is a specific restriction - i was saying what "must pursue...." would need to state for it to be MORE specific.

In general "cant" trumps "must" in a permissive system

kinda to both of you, the will not pursue is equivalent to cannot in this instance imo, I would find it difficult to believe that frenzy would override this condition based on its wording.

I think that GRR overrides frenzy.

From BRB page 70:

If, during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models COULD declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed...

A unit that includes one or more Frenzied models cannot choose to restrain pursuit...

Note that if the enemy is wiped out in a combat but the Frenzied unit did not charge that turn ... then the Frenzied unit will reform as normal [b]as it has no other choice of action[b]...

It would seem that Frenzy only forces you to CHOOSE to overrun or test to charge. GRRR disallows you from moving altogether, so no choice exists. Therefore I think he just remains in place, frenzy or not.

That's not what it means at all. It's saying if you had a choice you no longer do. Cannot choose doesn't mean choose, it means the exact opposite.

frenzy only removes the option of restraint, that's all it actually does.

it does not say that it must, only that it will.

since we have a specific rule saying will and a specific rule saying cannot, the cannot will win out.

the same would happen with the declaration of charges, a frenzied monster able to charge will not since it is denied movement of any kind.