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Can Zandrekh give a unit in reserves stealth or such?

I was wondering if I'd be able to stealth a night scythe / doom scythe before it comes on. The rule doesn't specify line of sight or that the unit must be on the board, only that Zandrekh must be on the board.

Why before?

The rule is used at the start of your turn. Reserves arrive at the start of your turn. You have 2 events that happen at the same time. As such the player who's turn it is gets to decide the order of events.

So bring your unit on, use the rule, then carry on with the rest of the turn.

I only ask because in a game today someone argued that as soon as I brought my doomscythe in from reserve that I couldn't use stealth on it because it was no longer the "start of my turn".

I hadn't began moving anything, but he was convinced that it was my movement phase because my doomscythe had moved onto the board. After reading the reserves rules, I've concluded that there's nothing to indicate that I begin my movement phase after moving my units onto the board from reserves so I should be able to use it.

Reserves, some Psychic powers, some Special Rules.
They all must occur at the Start of the Movement Phase.
As long as you do these before you start moving, you're still at the start.

 grendel083 wrote:
Reserves, some Psychic powers, some Special Rules.
They all must occur at the Start of the Movement Phase.
As long as you do these before you start moving, you're still at the start.

Just for clarity's sake; the rulebook reserves rule states "at the start of your turn x".

The rule, adaptive tactics, states "at the start of your turn".

So, it's before movement as I interpret it. But a flyer moving onto the board from reserves doesn't count as movement and so can come in from reserves, have stealth put on it and then you start your movement.

Start of your Turn and Start of the Movement Phase are the same thing.
There's nothing before the Movement Phase.

There's also an FAQ very much linking reserve rolls and moving on from reserve as being at the same time.

Edit: here it is:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Also note that the rulebook states that reserves move before 'normal' movement. It's this 'normal' movement that is the start of the Movement phase.

Your opponent was partially correct after a fashion, moving units in from reserves is done at the start of your movement phase and if you had nothing else to do at the start of your turn, finishing that action would also be the 'end' of the start of your movement phase. However they were mistaken about the interaction between that and Zahndrekh's special ability.

If you have multiple abilities all set to apply at the same timeframe (in this case the start of your movement phase and turn) then the active player decides what order they apply in. So simply have the deathscythe enter play prior to putting stealth on it, and you are fine. Doing it the other way around doesn't work since abilities cannot be used on models that haven't entered play unless explicitly indicated.

 Neorealist wrote:
LOS cannot be drawn to the flier until it has entered play.

Your statement was correct overall, but this specific thing is irrelevant.
Adaptive Tactics doesn't require LoS - the ability that removes a rule does though.

Indeed, that is correct which is why I edited my post to include another reason why you'd be unable to select a unit in reserves for the ability.

On what page is it stated that a model has to be 'in play' before Special Rules can be applied to them?

 Ghaz wrote:
Also note that the rulebook states that reserves move before 'normal' movement. It's this 'normal' movement that is the start of the Movement phase.

Can you point that out to me in the rule book?

JinxDragon wrote:
On what page is it stated that a model has to be 'in play' before Special Rules can be applied to them?

It's implied by the many special rules which explicitly indicate they effect things in reserves (verbiage which Zahndrekhs' ability notably lacks) which would otherwise have redundant verbiage if everything effected units there.

That said, it's not specifically written anywhere.

Quote added to clarify which post I was referring to.

Then the rulebook does not state that where the above poster claims it does explicity stated it.

There are no RAW rules to say there are TWO movement phases, as reserve movement is movement which isstated in the rules for reserves, nor is there a before start of turn before the movment phase.

Out of interest, which rules are you referring to, that indicate they effect things in reserve?.

In case you were unaware (though I am confused as to how you could be, by this point) amongst many others the Deepstrike, Infiltrate, and Interceptor USRs specifically reference how they interact with reserves.

As for one that would be redundant were it not for the difference between being in reserves and in play, the bolded part from the Independent Character rules: "...An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined..." would serve no useful purpose were there not a distinction between the two locations gameplay-wise.

Neorealist,
There is a difference between a Rule containing instructions to do X and a Rule containing permission to overcome restriction Y.

The rules you mentioned do not contain any informing us that a restriction is in play, or even hint that they are overcoming such a restrictions. Instead every single one of them where required to tell us how to go about doing action X or Y, not because of a general restriction that could be in play but simply because we needed to be told how to actually do so. Afterall, they contain nothing more then additional instructions that modify or change the normal sequence of events for a reason. It just happens the Special Rules you name all just happen involve Reserves, which is why they are addressed, in order to inform us what we are doing differently with the reserves in question.

Lets take that Independent character one for an example:
Independent Characters join other units at start of the game by being placed into coherency with them during deployment
Units in reserve can not be measured to, making it impossible for another unit to be in coherency with them
Therefore an independent character could not join a unit without additional instructions informing us how they interact with reserves

Not because they needed permission to overcome a restriction, but because it would literally be impossible to join a unit in reserve without instructions telling is how to do so.

JinxDragon wrote:
Lets take that Independent character one for an example:
Independent Characters join other units at start of the game by being placed into coherency with them during deployment
Units in reserve can not be measured to, making it impossible for another unit to be in coherency with them
Therefore an independent character could not join a unit without additional instructions informing us how they interact with reserves

Not because they needed permission to overcome a restriction, but because it would literally be impossible to join a unit in reserve without instructions telling is how to do so.

Is there some sort substantive difference in the context of this argument between needing specific permission to add an IC to a unit in reserves rather than following the coherency rules, and needing specific permission to do anything 'else' to a unit in reserves as distinct to a unit in play?

The rules don't directly indicate how we can interact with a unit in reserves apart from clear-cut cases such as reserves rules themselves and any rules which directly interact directly with same similarly to the USRs I mentioned previously. However there 'are' rules with no rules-specific way to resolve their effects if they 'happen' (so to speak) to units or models which aren't in play despite not being ruled out explicitly anywhere.

I find it therefore compelling evidence that the restriction is one that is inferred, but never stated within 40k.

Neorealist,
So while it is very true that many elements in play make it impossible for the majority of Special Rules to influence units that are in Reserves, this fact does not create a restriction where one is not written.

There is huge differences between actions that can not be taken due to internal requirements not currently being met and actions that are illegal to carry out due to restrictions. It is hard to explain this difference and why they matter because we are analog thinkers. When we look at something that looks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck we will conclude that it must be a duck even without something telling us 'this is a duck.' While this ability helps us greatly in day to day events, it does make it possible for us to draw connections where one does not exist, simply because we feel something should be there. It is why Rule Writers have to take great care to state what they intend for a rule to do, instead of just implying something then telling us to sort it all out.

This case is a perfect example:
Nearly all Special Rules Rules contain elements that make it impossible to apply them to Reserves: Measurement, line of sight requirements, being shot at... all are triggers that can not be met by units in Reserve
Because Special Rules can not normally effect something in Reserves, we conclude that there must be a Rule preventing them from doing so
We then encounter a Special Rule which can trigger because it does not have these same elements

We conclude the rule is doing something illegal anyway....

MarkyMark wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Also note that the rulebook states that reserves move before 'normal' movement. It's this 'normal' movement that is the start of the Movement phase.

Can you point that out to me in the rule book?

From page 124 of the BRB:

When reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

The rules for the Movement phase start at this 'normal' movement. Therefore anything that happens before this is by its very nature at the start of the Movement phase. This is supported by the FAQ that grendel083 quoted.

So Ghaz, are you saying units coming on from reserve is not movement? or is a special type of movement seeing as it is, according to you, not done in the 'normal' movement phase.

The Faq refers to reserve rolls, not movement, you can infer from that what you will, the same as you are assuming things from the BRB, which is not RAW, as nothing is written about 2 movement phases...

He is saying it is "unusual", aka "not normal", movement. IT is stil part of the movement phase - Ghaz never said otherwise, that I can see.

ITs the same difference, whether its unusual movment or not, it is all taken place in the movement phase doiny any of these movements therefore makes it no longer the start of the movement phase.

MarkyMark wrote:
ITs the same difference, whether its unusual movment or not, it is all taken place in the movement phase doiny any of these movements therefore makes it no longer the start of the movement phase.

That FAQ disagrees with you.
Outflank rolls are done when a unit moves onto the battlefield. Not before. Since the FAQ marks those as simultaneous with Reserve rolls and we know that Reserve rolls are before movement, we know, factually, that moving on from Reserves happens before the rest of your movement - and simultaneous with things like Zandreks ability.

Which is true if you ignore the fact that movement from reserves, including outflank is movement, therefore you arent at the start of something if you are already doing it. You argue that there is no permission for a break in the outflank set of rules, the FAQ says there is a break, otherwise as above you will be breaking the start of turn rules.

MarkyMark wrote:
Which is true if you ignore the fact that movement from reserves, including outflank is movement, therefore you arent at the start of something if you are already doing it. You argue that there is no permission for a break in the outflank set of rules, the FAQ says there is a break, otherwise as above you will be breaking the start of turn rules.

No, moving on is explicitly part of resolving Reserves rolls. It's not after the start of your turn.
Unless you're saying that psychic powers cannot be used if Reserves arrive - which has literally no rules basis.

Yes it is, but your arguement is that they have to be done exactly one after the other (reserve roll outflank roll then movement), the FAQ allows for reserve rolls and outflank rolls to be done at the same time as other start of movement abilites rules, this is permission to grant a gap inbetween rolling for reserves then outflank, break to do other start of turn, then movement.

Or are you saying that movement on from reserve is not movement?, or saying that if you are doing something you are still at the start of something? (replace something with movement).

He is saying that per the quoted faq reserve rolls and moving a unit onto the battlefield are simultaneous. Since two things that are simultaneous are happening at the same time both are happening at the start of your movement phase. Since i am able to decide in which order "start of movement/turn"-abiities can be resolved i can absolutely roll for reserves than bring on the unit and afterwards cast something on them that has to be cast at the start of movement. Otherwise you are disregarding the faq and not treating them as being simultaneous.

Mywik, if that was the case why does the FAQ mention reserve and outflank rolls, why not just say reserves and outflank?. I am not the one disregarding the FAQ (I dont think either of us are disregading it in our reading of it).

In response to your second part, I will ask this again

Or are you saying that movement on from reserve is not movement?, or saying that if you are doing something you are still at the start of something? (replace something with movement).


You are either saying it isnt movement therefore it is done before movement or you are saying that is is movement and ignoring the fact you are now no longer start of the movement phase.

MarkyMark wrote:
Mywik, if that was the case why does the FAQ mention reserve and outflank rolls, why not just say reserves and outflank?. I am not the one disregarding the FAQ (I dont think either of us are disregading it in our reading of it).

If what you are saying was true it would be impossible to bring on more than one unit from reserves per turn. Since you have to bring on reserves simultaneously to rolling for reserves. Therefore if moving in from reserves constitutes the end of the start of your turn you cant bring on another unit after bringing on your first.

Or am i misunderstanding what you are arguing?

Never said that nor implied it. As per the FAQ you will have to roll for your reserves and outflank and other psyhic powers, then bring the models on. Simple.