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Canterbury

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26492720



Building three "Great Walls" across Tornado Alley in the US could eliminate the disasters, a physicist says.

The barriers - 300m (980ft) high and up to 100 miles long - would act like hill ranges, softening winds before twisters can form.

They would cost $16bn (£9.6bn) to build but save billions of dollars of damage each year, said Prof Rongjia Tao, of Temple University, Philadelphia.

He unveiled his idea at the American Physical Society meeting in Denver.

However critics say the idea is unworkable, and would create more problems than it solves.

Threat over 'forever'
Every year hundreds of twisters tear through communities in the great north-south corridor between the Rocky and Appalachian Mountain ranges.

The proposed walls would not shelter towns - they would not be strong enough to block a tornado in motion.

Instead, they would soften the clashing streams of hot southern and cold northern air, which form twisters in the first place, Prof Tao said.

"If we build three east-west great walls, one in North Dakota, one along the border between Kansas and Oklahoma, and the third in the south in Texas and Louisiana, we will diminish the threats in Tornado Alley forever," he said.

As evidence, he points to China - where only three tornadoes were recorded last year, compared to 803 in the US.

China too has flat plain valleys running north-south, but the difference is they are broken up by east-west hill ranges.

Although only a few hundred metres high, they are enough to take the sting out of air currents before they clash, Prof Tao believes.

Hotspot
Back in the US, he notes that the flat farmlands of Illinois experience wildly varying risks of twisters.

"Washington County is a tornado hotspot. But just 60 miles (100km) away is Gallatin County, where there is almost no risk," he told BBC News.

"Why? Just look at the map - at Gallatin you have the Shawnee Hills."

These act like a barrier 200-250m (820ft) high, protecting Gallatin, he says.

"We may not have east-west mountain ranges - like the Alps in Europe - we can build walls."

"We've already been doing computer simulations and next we aim to build physical models for testing [in wind tunnels]."

Rather than create an eyesore, the walls could be "attractively" designed, says Prof Tao.

He cites the Comcast skyscraper in Philadelphia - also about 300m high, and built with a reinforced glass exterior.

"Our tornado wall could even be built of glass too. It could be a beautiful landmark," he told BBC News.

"I spoke to some architects and they said it's possible. It would take a few years to finish the walls but we could build them in stages."

Prof Tao has yet to approach government or environmental agencies with his scheme, but the reaction from meteorologists has been highly sceptical.

Harold Brooks, of the National Severe Storms Laboratory, said the great walls "simply wouldn't work".

He told USA Today that tornadoes still occur in parts of Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri despite east-west hill ranges similar in size to Prof Tao's proposed barriers.

'Poorly conceived'

Another leading tornado expert, Prof Joshua Wurman of the Center for Severe Weather Research, was equally dismissive of Prof Tao's proposal.

"Everybody I know is of 100% agreement - this is a poorly conceived idea," he told BBC News.

"From what I can gather his concept of how tornadoes form is fundamentally flawed. Meteorologists cringe when they hear about 'clashing hot and cold air'. It's a lot more complicated than that."

Though much of the blame does lie with warm air rushing north from the Gulf of Mexico, stopping it would be nigh on impossible, Prof Wurman says.

"Perhaps if he built his barrier on the scale of the Alps - 2,000-3,000m (9,800ft) high, it would disrupt it," he says.

"But clearly that would also cause a drastic change in climate."

And there lies the real crux of the problem, says Prof Wurman. Any geoengineering scheme powerful enough to eliminate tornadoes would also by definition have catastrophic side effects.

"The cure could be worse than the disease," he told BBC News.

"So the solution to tornadoes is not trying to get rid of them.

"It's better predictions and warnings so people can get out of way. Better homes. Better shelters."

He added: "Don't get me wrong, I'm open to new ideas. I consider myself an out-of-the-box thinker. But just because an idea is heretical, doesn't mean it's a good one."



well.... it's definitely an idea anyway,......


One suspects that there might be some issues with constructing a glass wall 30M high and 100 miles long.


Be hell of a job to clean as well.

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The Great State of Texas

Pfft. This is America. Defense is for wussy Europeans. I say hit those tornadoes before they can hit us, like good red blooded Americans...HURR!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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MN (Currently in WY)

I can hear the NIMBY cries now.



NIMBY= Not in my backyard.

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Do the projected costs also include the chinese to defend the walls from Mongolians?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
I can hear the NIMBY cries now.



NIMBY= Not in my backyard.

IMMINENT DOMAIN!!!!!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/10 15:12:22


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USA

Do the projected costs also include the chinese to defend the walls from Mongolians?


Yes this also has me interested. How well will the walls perform when subjected to 10th Century seige tactics and will they include a snack bar?

   
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MN (Currently in WY)

The Tornadoes will just learn from the Mongols and bypass the walls.

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Desperado Corp.

You see, if America had had a gun to protect itself from the tornadoes in the first place, this wouldn't be a problem

Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
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Yeah, seems like a brilliant idea...

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
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Across the Great Divide

I think this is great news! Someone is finally THINKING OF THE CHILDREN.



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The Great State of Texas

Exactly. These are just common sense measures. I think you should pass. I think you should pass it now.


(does the wall seem like the giant wall encircling Mega City, or perhaps the wall being built to keep out Kaiju in Pacific Rim. )

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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 FirePainter wrote:
I think this is great news! Someone is finally THINKING OF THE CHILDREN.



Am I doing it right?


Nope, it wasn't an idea from our British Government!

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
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If this was an actual idea that was likely to go ahead I'd be pretty NIMBY about it.

250+ meter high glass walls? That'd capture some amount of heat.

Tornadoes averted, wild fires skyrocket.

Wouldn't it be easier to build houses away from the areas that are the most severely effected by tornadoes?


   
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Across the Great Divide

 Medium of Death wrote:
If this was an actual idea that was likely to go ahead I'd be pretty NIMBY about it.

250+ meter high glass walls? That'd capture some amount of heat.

Tornadoes averted, wild fires skyrocket.

Wouldn't it be easier to build houses away from the areas that are the most severely effected by tornadoes?



This is Murica where we build cites on the coast below sea level. Or homes in the path of previous mudslides. Or on the edge of majestic forests prone to fire.

Murica

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New Orleans, LA

 Medium of Death wrote:
If this was an actual idea that was likely to go ahead I'd be pretty NIMBY about it.

250+ meter high glass walls? That'd capture some amount of heat.

Tornadoes averted, wild fires skyrocket.

Wouldn't it be easier to build houses away from the areas that are the most severely effected by tornadoes?



Tornado Alley contains some excellent farm land, so no.

See also: New Orleans, why the feth did you build a city below sea level?

See also: California, why the feth did you build cities on a fault line?

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IL

If I learned anything from watching Sharknado it's how to defeat Tonadoes. Simply make improvised explosive devices out of couple of 5 gallon propane tanks and flares, use a helicoptor to fly right into the eye of the storm, unleash said IED, pose while there's a manly explosion and consider the tornado problem solved.



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 Medium of Death wrote:
250+ meter high glass walls? That'd capture some amount of heat.

Tornadoes averted, wild fires skyrocket.

Ooh, I didn't think of that. That just makes the idea even more ridiculous!

See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
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The Great State of Texas

 paulson games wrote:
If I learned anything from watching Sharknado it's how to defeat Tonadoes. Simply make improvised explosive devices out of couple of 5 gallon propane tanks and flares, use a helicoptor to fly right into the eye of the storm, unleash said IED, pose while there's a manly explosion and consider the tornado problem solved.




Thread win right there.

This is America. instead of building walls we just strip mine Oklahoma, creating defacto reverse walls. Profitable, and finally, finally, Oklahoma won't be flat.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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 reds8n wrote:

well.... it's definitely an idea anyway,......


One suspects that there might be some issues with constructing a glass wall 30M high and 100 miles long.


Be hell of a job to clean as well.



Well, change the construction to steel rebar reinforced concrete it makes more sense.... This way, we'll also be defended against the imminent Kaiju threat



















Ohh wait... they did just break through it.
   
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The Great State of Texas

Emergency barriers in case the herds of Aussie drop bears climb out of the trees and decide to wim over?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Probably work

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I can hear the NIMBY cries now.



NIMBY= Not in my backyard.

IMMINENT DOMAIN!!!!!!!


For some reason, that typo actually made me bust up out loud.

I had a mental image of land spontaneously forming, and it was funnier than it should have been.

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Upstate, New York

If we build them on the borders, we can keep the immigrants out as well as the tornadoes.

   
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IL

Giant walls will attract Mexicans... big giant walls in the middle of the US will simply draw millions of them like moths to a flame and once they cross that wall their migratory pattern will cause them to flood northwards into Canada. If that happens all our Home Depot lots will be barren and our best fry cooks will be but a distant memory.

Forget the walls what we need to do is stop letting Canada export all their artic air. I bet there's not even so much as a ID check at the border when their cold air comes down here all half cocked to pick fights with our warm American air. I for one won't stand for a Secret Chinese plot that's devised to undermine the US by stealing all our Mexicans, the real blame for Tornadoes (like everything else) is in Canada.




This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/10 21:06:53


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Nobody will make it past the wall. If you get within 100 feet of it you'll be incinerated. So if anything people will be trapped behind the "Glass Curtain" and America will need to split in two.

   
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Darlington

and if it all goes wrong you can always send in Snake Plissken to sort it out at the last moment

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UK

Just the title of this thread had me laughing at the sheer wackiness of the concept before I even clicked on it.

Love it, barmy enough that it just might end up happening.

Of course, glass would be an immensely stupid idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/10 21:00:44


 
   
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UK

I'm reminded of:

http://dryicenetwork.com/science/modifying-hurricanes-with-dry-ice/

So in all likely-hood they could end up just moving the tornadoes somewhere else; or suddenly create new major problems locally or have some huge knock-on-butterfly-wings effect that suddenly causes tsunamis in the Mediterranean on a weekly basis.



Interesting point - computer generated weather models to model weather on a global scale have problems; some of them have a sample rating such as that things like Italy periodically vanish from the models calculations because its too small to sample.

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300' high walls that span for hundreds of miles. I don't even want to take a guess as to how much that would screw up things like pollination, bird migratory habits, etc...

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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Oh, no, no. They would be 300 METERS tall. So a thousand feet high.

We should just launch bombs into tornadoes to "teach 'em a lesson".



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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Oh, no, no. They would be 300 METERS tall. So a thousand feet high.

We should just launch bombs into tornadoes to "teach 'em a lesson".



Have the air national guard on standby to drop thermobaric weapons into funnel clouds as they form. I'm in.

   
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Building a blood in water scent

This is a deeply silly idea. The money could be used to construct tornado resistant homes instead.

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