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so i came upon an interesting situation in yesterdays game, my mate was against orks with de And the stompa was Attacking The archon with a clone field and rolled a 2 the amount of hits the stompa got, are they ignored?

Yes they are ignored.

The clone field isn't a save. It simply removes D3 hits before they even get to the roll for wounds.

Why wouldn't they be? Is there a rule for D weapons that says it ignores Clone Fields? If not, the Clone Field will work normally.

Cool, now to think of a way that the Archon can kill the Stompa any suggestions other than haywire grenades

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
rolled a 2 the amount of hits the stompa got,

Are you talking about the D3 Stomp attacks?

Stompa having 4 basic attacks followed by D3 Stomps.

I don't think an Archon has access to anything that could possibly hurt the Stompa other than haywire.

And even then, it could very well be that the Archon gets snuffed out before hurting it. You'd have better luck with trueborn w/blasters or lots of dark lances.

 grendel083 wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
rolled a 2 the amount of hits the stompa got,

Are you talking about the D3 Stomp attacks?

Stompa having 4 basic attacks followed by D3 Stomps.

Stompa made his 4 basic Attacks, 2 missed archon ignores them. followed by stomp which kills the archon

clively wrote:
Yes they are ignored.

The clone field isn't a save. It simply removes D3 hits before they even get to the roll for wounds.

Not sure I agree. Destroyer straight up says that it ignores special rules in addition to saves (such as FNP or RP).

Some confusion here - stomps aren't StrD, but you don't roll a number of attacks that would be StrD...

OP, clarify?

rigeld2 wrote:
Some confusion here - stomps aren't StrD, but you don't roll a number of attacks that would be StrD...

OP, clarify?

Archon T3 stomp St6 or more i believe

Sure, but that has literally nothing to do with StrD.
StrD would ignore the clone field, but stomps aren't StrD.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sure, but that has literally nothing to do with StrD.
StrD would ignore the clone field, but stomps aren't StrD.

At the time the player with DE won the argument and ignored the Str-D with clonefield as in OP but the stomp killed him anyway
so the question i was raising was: does the clonefield ignore Str-D?

No. Nothing protects against S: D unless it specifically says so.

AWWWWW. but.but.but It'll looks so scenic and stuff
ill have to tell the DE player buy it didnt matter anyway it was the same result

 Happyjew wrote:
No. Nothing protects against S: D unless it specifically says so.

The Clone Field cuts in before you roll to wound, so i don't see how the D weapon's "ignore all saves, and things that look like saves" kicks in since that happens after the roll to wound

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
No. Nothing protects against S: D unless it specifically says so.

The Clone Field cuts in before you roll to wound, so i don't see how the D weapon's "ignore all saves, and things that look like saves" kicks in since that happens after the roll to wound

D weapons don't roll to wound at all.

I see, that since "D weapon attack table" isn't called rolling to Wound, you skip the Clone Field?

Clone Field stops attacks and is rolled for at the beginning of the phase before any attacks are made. While it is not a "to Wound" roll, D-weapons still roll at the same time as a "to Wound" roll. The rule in Clone Field is a rule of timing, not requirement. Furthermore, the D-weapon rules specifically say "No saving throws of any kind are allowed against damage from a Destroyer weapon..." Because of the timing of the Clone Field's effect, the D-weapon never does any damage. Clone Field works.

Clone Field absolutely works against a D weapon, it doesn't matter that the effect is 'destroyer' because clone field doesn't stop the Destroyer effect, it stops the hit.

So the destroyer effect still happens it just hits a clone image so nothing happens to the model.

That said other than 1 haywire grenade an archon could only hope to hurt a knight if it was jacked up on soul traps twice already. So not really a good plan. When I say hope to hurt, I mean it has 0 chance. Not a very good plan to take on a knight. Statistically the Archon will get killed while doing almost nothing to the knight.

Archon with Haywire grenades on average does .55 HP a round.

Average clone field roll is 2.

Knight will probably have its Destroyer weapon attacks stopped by clone field [ consider if the knight rolls slightly above average and gets 2 destroyer hits and the archon has a 33% chance to only stop 1 hit from clone field also], but then will stomp the archon three times, which will have close to a 40% chance to remove the archon from play if they get 3 stomps without any save. Even without rolling any 6s for the stomp effect that your looking at taking on average 2 str 6 wounds a round from stomping, against an archon thats ID if the save is failed.

As above; like Titan holo fields which discount hits,these will work

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above; like Titan holo fields which discount hits,these will work

The Eldar Titan Holo-fields specifically state they work against Destroyer weapons. That is why they work. Destroyer still ignores any saves, special rules, etc. that can "save" the model.

Clone field isn't a save, and is not saving the model from the destroyer hit, the destroyer attack just never hits the model if it hits a clone.

If a knight rolls to hit with its attacks and it misses, is that something that's saving the model its swinging at from a destroyer hit?

blaktoof wrote:
Clone field isn't a save, and is not saving the model from the destroyer hit, the destroyer attack just never hits the model if it hits a clone.

Is the model still there due to rolling a 1 on the Destroyer damage table? If the answer is no, then it was "saved" by the clone field. I use "save" because Destroyer ignores more than just saves. It also ignores things like FNP (which makes sure you know that it is clearly not a save), and RP which happens even later.

all the things you are referencing are things that save you from suffering a wound or effect.

Clone field doesn't go to the wound step, you are discounting hits.

So it is turning a hit into no effect, not saving you from an effect.

If you had rolled on the destroyer table to see an effect, and the item saved you from the roll of that effect, it would be saving you from a destroyer hit.

You do not get to roll on the destroyer table if you hit a clone, because the attack in effect never hit, meaning it missed. So there is no effect generated on the table you are being saved from, because the attack never hit.

Well, then I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree. Unless you disagree to that in which case we would have to agree to disagree to disagree. Or something.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well, then I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree. Unless you disagree to that in which case we would have to agree to disagree to disagree. Or something.

I guess I have to agree to that.

So what's the final verdict?

Contested. Just like some other rules conflicts.

Just another thing you'll have to discuss with your opponent. The Destroyer Weapons don't work at all RaW and their no saves rule is incredibly vague. I'd tend towards the clone field not working as it does not specifically call out destroyer hits like the Titan Holofields. Yet it does not prevent damage as disallows hits just like those very same Titan Holofields...

Although clone field doesn't specifically call out hits from super heavies that have destroyer weapons, in 2010 when the Dark Eldar were published- 40k codexes at that time didn't have apoc items on the radar.