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Everyone I talk to says yes. 720 points invested in wraithknights is allot, some say to much. I feel like it is worth it, as 3 wraithknights applying pressure can put the hurt onto allot of armies. So would it be better to have 3 or to only have 2 and then fill up the points with other things?
List would have looked like this

Mantleseer 160

5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 rangers 60
5 rangers 60
wraithknight 240
wraithknight 240
wraithknight 240

I dunno, I feel that you'd be happier with Two, and spend the points elsewhere...like on some Warp Spiders say....

I guess I say "Give it a go, and then decide"

I know my crons would have a really hard time dealing with 3. I rely on wraiths to tie them up and widdle them down and I only take 2 full squads of wraiths. I faced 2 wraithknights in the last tourney here first game and I did terrible. He went first and was able to nearly annihilate my wraiths with focused firing and I spent the remainder on my heels.

I cant imagine if there was 3, it would have been even worse.

Naturally some armies wont care as much, like DE, will just poison them down like they were nothing.

But luckily vs dark eldar i have 4 wave serpents, which cut there transports open like the wet carboard they are

I think it's kind of one of those rock/paper/scissors things. You'll put some serious pressure on a lot of armies, but run into anything with the instant death rule and it's going to be an uphill battle for you. Other eldar armies with wraith guard, grey knights, Nurgle Prince with a Bale Sword (granted he's not as common these days), Be'Lakor would probably win out against one. You probably wouldn't want to run into a khorne herald either. That or lists with fast units that can tie you up (hormagaunts, gargoyles, khorne dogs, scarabs too maybe?) Don't know if you have many in your meta, but the advent of Imperial Knights could spell trouble for 3 wraithknights, what with that S: D cc weapon and all.

So basically my gut instinct says yes, it's a bit overkill, but hell give it a shot.

I wouldn't play against an army with three because as it is my armies would have no chance against them. I'd certainly play against one. Two if I tailored my list a bit but three? Not a chance for me.

It's an all eggs in one basket type strategy, so the guys you're going to beat, you're going to beat handily. The armies you won't beat will probably beat you just as handily.

Thats one of the most obvious lists for Eldar to face, I wrote a very simular one when they first come out except 4 WS's and 5 jetbikes for the farseer to go in. Its a pretty boring list to play IMO (I just cannot do gunlines anymore) but thats horses for courses tbh.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Everyone I talk to says yes. 720 points invested in wraithknights is allot, some say to much. I feel like it is worth it, as 3 wraithknights applying pressure can put the hurt onto allot of armies. So would it be better to have 3 or to only have 2 and then fill up the points with other things?
List would have looked like this

Mantleseer 160

5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 rangers 60
5 rangers 60
wraithknight 240
wraithknight 240
wraithknight 240

My Ig list has 13 LasCannons. Twin linked against Monsters and vehicles. And then a pair of PCS with 4 meltas in each. So its possible that you might have zero Wraithknights by round two.

Would that affect your decision at all? or your strategy?

I also take two Hydras in the current version of my list which ignores cover saves (which includes Jinks). So I would feel like this game would not be as fun for you

240 points will buy a lot of stuff. Like two more Wave Serpents?

For friendly games yes, for tournies, no. I would say the same thing about riptides and knight titans too. Plus spam lists are never fun to play against.

I'd drop the rangers for 2 Windrider squads and use the 18 points left on runes for the seer.

In my tournament list I have been running 3 wraith knights for a few months now and I love it. For the first few events I was running all three with only the heavy wraith cannons, but after Templecon I decided to upgrade one to have the suncannon/shield/scatter laser combo... and he has been dreamy.

I find that in a lot of the seriously competitive tournaments I have been to that 1 wraith knight will just get torched off the table, and with two you can hope to get one into a good position for your battle plan, but now with three I find it is exceptionally hard for the enemy to get rid of all three before they can influence the battle. In other words, if I have the bottom of the turn against some high end Space Marine, Eldar or Tau lists... I expect there to be a dead wraith knight before I can move.

Tactically this gives me one WK to target troops and weak units with (the suncannon), and two to hunt big targets like LR or other armour. WK will go down easy to instant death Demons and such, so having three does take a bit of care, but I have been thoroughly enjoying it. Lots of fun.

Here is the list I have been running at 1850 and have had some great success:

HQ - 70
Spirit Seer

Troops - 867
10 Guardians
Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser
3 Jetbikes
3 Jetbikes

Fast Attack - 133
7 Warp Spiders

Heavy - 780
Wraithknight
Wraithknight
Wraithknight - Suncannon, Shield, Scatter Laser

You used the word dreamy in a sentence involving a garishly ugly WraithKnight model.

My hat sir, is tipped in your direction.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Everyone I talk to says yes. 720 points invested in wraithknights is allot, some say to much. I feel like it is worth it, as 3 wraithknights applying pressure can put the hurt onto allot of armies. So would it be better to have 3 or to only have 2 and then fill up the points with other things?
List would have looked like this

Mantleseer 160

5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 dire avengers in serpent 210
5 rangers 60
5 rangers 60
wraithknight 240
wraithknight 240
wraithknight 240

My Ig list has 13 LasCannons. Twin linked against Monsters and vehicles. And then a pair of PCS with 4 meltas in each. So its possible that you might have zero Wraithknights by round two.

Would that affect your decision at all? or your strategy?

I also take two Hydras in the current version of my list which ignores cover saves (which includes Jinks). So I would feel like this game would not be as fun for you

240 points will buy a lot of stuff. Like two more Wave Serpents?

13 Lascannons, even twinlinked doesn't sound very scary....especially with cover. Neither do the PCS' if they even make it in range.

 Zande4 wrote:
I'd drop the rangers for 2 Windrider squads and use the 18 points left on runes for the seer.

Keeping at least one unit of Rangers isn't a terrible idea actually because otherwise this list just auto loses to White Scars - they are up in your face turn 1, Grav kills the Wraithknights and the Serpents fold to assault (which you can't stop because the Wraithknight are either dead or can't block because the Bikes can Hit and Run out). Alternatively find 31pts for an Inquisitor.

@Jancoran. 13 Lascannons isn't overly threatening - you average ~10 hits (BS3), ~7 wounds which won't even kill a single Wraithknight a turn when it has its toe in cover. Similarly 4 Meltas will put a dent in a Wraithknight but even both units together aren't getting a guaranteed kill. 2 Hydras are going to annoy the Serpent but they aren't a major threat, they can be neutralised as soon as the Eldar player gets a shooting phase. Serpents are 145pts with proper loadout, but you have to allow another 65-90pts for the squad inside. In general when you are building lists Wraithknights and Serpents are basically a one for one swap.

Anyway, to answer the original question. 3 Wraithknights is definitely not something you should bring to a friendly game without checking with your opponent, many armies just have no answer to that much T8 aggressively controlling the board (particularly when combined with 4+ Serpents shooting them off the board). In a tournament game they definitely aren't too much, the question at that point is more whether 3 is significantly better than 2. I have found that the third WK is very situational, running 3 means that the rest of your list is often pretty thin (i.e at 1750pts you get 3 WK, 5 Serpents, 3 Jetbikes and a Spiritseer with no room for any flexibility) and its much harder to buff all 3. I have been very happy running 2 + a MantleSeer, he can easily buff them both and make them much more effective without having to babysit them like the Spiritseer (who doesn't buff them anywhere near as much). The couple of times I have run 3 I didn't think the extra one was making that much of a difference, but YMMV.

You know, I should say the list was planning to being for a GT. Not friendly play.

Powerguy wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
I'd drop the rangers for 2 Windrider squads and use the 18 points left on runes for the seer.

Keeping at least one unit of Rangers isn't a terrible idea actually because otherwise this list just auto loses to White Scars - they are up in your face turn 1, Grav kills the Wraithknights and the Serpents fold to assault (which you can't stop because the Wraithknight are either dead or can't block because the Bikes can Hit and Run out). Alternatively find 31pts for an Inquisitor.

@Jancoran. 13 Lascannons isn't overly threatening - you average ~10 hits (BS3), ~7 wounds which won't even kill a single Wraithknight a turn when it has its toe in cover. Similarly 4 Meltas will put a dent in a Wraithknight but even both units together aren't getting a guaranteed kill. 2 Hydras are going to annoy the Serpent but they aren't a major threat, they can be neutralised as soon as the Eldar player gets a shooting phase. Serpents are 145pts with proper loadout, but you have to allow another 65-90pts for the squad inside. In general when you are building lists Wraithknights and Serpents are basically a one for one swap.

Anyway, to answer the original question. 3 Wraithknights is definitely not something you should bring to a friendly game without checking with your opponent, many armies just have no answer to that much T8 aggressively controlling the board (particularly when combined with 4+ Serpents shooting them off the board). In a tournament game they definitely aren't too much, the question at that point is more whether 3 is significantly better than 2. I have found that the third WK is very situational, running 3 means that the rest of your list is often pretty thin (i.e at 1750pts you get 3 WK, 5 Serpents, 3 Jetbikes and a Spiritseer with no room for any flexibility) and its much harder to buff all 3. I have been very happy running 2 + a MantleSeer, he can easily buff them both and make them much more effective without having to babysit them like the Spiritseer (who doesn't buff them anywhere near as much). The couple of times I have run 3 I didn't think the extra one was making that much of a difference, but YMMV.

Famous last words my friends.

But I am find with you staying totally away from me and firing your weapon at spread out Guardsman. Do that. We'll wait. and with this list, not that it is actually a bad one (it isn't) but it essentially would turn into a gun line that is outranged. the damage output at say 37 inches is like negligible. Those silly Serpents are gonna have to come forward if they want to stop the grenade launchers, Lascannons, hydras and Manticores from ruining their day. So all I'm saying is, three becomes two rapidly, becomes one rapidly and as each one dies, I would be moving the Guardsman up up up afterwards to take advantage of our girth until we can cut those silly Serpents off and ultimately charge them. 108 models as it turns out does actually cover a lot of space.

So my suggestion was to HELP him. I think three is just too many. "toe in terrain" isn't going to work forever and its not going to stop prescienced overwatches. The army needs one less WraithKnight, Thats all Im suggesting, based on the army I currently play, with no mods. and its worth remembering that Coteaz can get a power that deletes that cover problem. He is in my unmodified current list also.

The original poster has choices to make but its something he should calculate in.

Providing list advice by saying "Yeah, but my army list can do X is not exactly helpful"

To the OP. I'd recommend taking the suncannon and ++ on one of the knights. Make that one your warlord. It'll free up your mantleseer to be a bit more aggressive.

Swapping one or both of the ranger squads to jetbikes will help you out in taking objectives. Unless you're worried about infiltate/scout move shenanigans.

A guy in my local scene was running 3 knights for a few tournaments. He did pretty well with them most of the time. But the list, as mentioned, does struggle with "bad matchup syndrome".

Oh my list isn't why he should take only two. Its just a prime example. I agree that "my list is better" isn't helpful but what I am trying to convey is that the tourney lists reaaly can chop those trees down to size and fast. The THREAT of 2 of them does perhaps more than the reality of 3.

I say it's not enough. See if you can abuse the Ally system to get more.

It'll work sometimes. And then it will fail terribly sometimes. No middleground.

Yeah, it would fail often against some lists.

But I really don't think gunline guard is one of those lists. Best case scenario, you can take down a Wraithknight/turn, and a serpent/turn if you're not getting shot back at.

Personally, I'd only take the two wraithknights due to the hard-counters they face. Swapping the Rangers to jetbikes, and using the points from the 3rd wraithknight for a couple of squads of swooping hawks. I like swooping hawks, and they murder IG gunlines

Well I've had the chance to fight two wraithknights with mechspam. I don't think a third would have made any diff.

I guess what's the upside of taking a chance you don't have to?

Col. Dash wrote:
For friendly games yes, for tournies, no. I would say the same thing about riptides and knight titans too. Plus spam lists are never fun to play against.

Friendly games with serpent and wk spam? I'd not like to have such "friendly games" at all.

3 wraithknights look awesome on the table. Big, scary and a really fantastic looking model. Pretty imposing to deal with 18 T8 wounds, even if you have the tools to deal with them.

I was planning on doing a little write-up on threats to them, and while I only have one, and have only ever fielded one, he's a lil summary of how he's been taken down. Opponents tend to want to shoot him, despite him not being a huge threat. It's 'big scary model syndrome'.

The main threats to the wraithknight are not high str weapons, it's weapons that ignore toughness that do it. Poison is the obvious one. The quickest way i've had my knight taken down was to some Ymgarl Stealers in the last codex. 2x5 of them popped out of a nearby building, and proceeded to use their extra attack bonus, and get a bunch of rends on him. Gone in a single combat round.

I lost him against a guard player, not to mass lascannons as you'd expect, but to a psyker battle squad. A little known, and highly effective trick where a psyker battle squad weakens resolve to take leadership down, then an allied farseer psychic shrieked him for a whole bunch of wounds. Lesson learned. Other threads to watch out for against guard players are Vendettas. They can be tough for Eldar to handle, and you best believe they will drop a plasma squad ontop of you.

The psychic shriek trick can work for Eldar players too. Seer council can potentially drop leadership, and i've used psychic shriek against a tyrannofex for the same result. That's not even taking into account the fleshbane on the council too. I've used my council against a wraithknight to great effect. Multicharging a serpent to make sure you stay in combat for extra points. Other wraithknights are a threat too. Rolling that 6 to wound makes them disappear pretty quickly. Stay the hell away from wraithguard too. Warp spiders are a threat, along with anything with bladestorm. Which is pretty much everything.

Grey Knights are another bad matchup for the knight. Psycannons will cause problems, and anything with psybolt will be able to wound him. No longer immune to bolters. Not to mention there's force weapons everywhere, and hammerhand means everything will be able to wound you.

I had a game against a IG/DA/Inq force at a tournament recently. My knight got rolled by his black knights. Rad grenades? (whatever the -T grenades are) took him down a bit, the bolter did a couple of wounds, then I was very unlucky when his libby force weaponed the knight with a 6 to wound.

You don't have much to worry about against Necrons. My knight usually goes to town against them. Stay away from scarabs and wraiths. I lost a bunch of wounds to lightning once, and a c'tan made all the terrain dangerous, which got the final wound on him. That was a freak game though, consider your positioning in this one.

Grav bikers will do a number on him too. Get yourself a cover save, and be thankful he's not shooting your serpents instead. Charge in when you can, against this list, you need him to be smashing things in CC.

Against Orks, just stay the hell away from powerclaws. They will tie you down in combat, and powerclaws will eat the knights VERY quickly.


This turned into quite the essay...

 koooaei wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
For friendly games yes, for tournies, no. I would say the same thing about riptides and knight titans too. Plus spam lists are never fun to play against.

Friendly games with serpent and wk spam? I'd not like to have such "friendly games" at all.

Thats why I love highlander-list-setups... no spamming anymore... less balance issues...

In my opinion spam lists like the one of the OP are boring to play (with and against), look boring on the field and dont need any kind of skill.

Regards

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
For friendly games yes, for tournies, no. I would say the same thing about riptides and knight titans too. Plus spam lists are never fun to play against.

Friendly games with serpent and wk spam? I'd not like to have such "friendly games" at all.

Thats why I love highlander-list-setups... no spamming anymore... less balance issues...

In my opinion spam lists like the one of the OP are boring to play (with and against), look boring on the field and dont need any kind of skill.

Regards

what's highlander-list setups?

 koooaei wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
For friendly games yes, for tournies, no. I would say the same thing about riptides and knight titans too. Plus spam lists are never fun to play against.

Friendly games with serpent and wk spam? I'd not like to have such "friendly games" at all.

This was answering the original question by the OP, so he is saying that 3 WKs isn't something you should bring to a friendly.

Correct Powerguy. Plus what I said at the end regarding spam lists.

 koooaei wrote:

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
For friendly games yes, for tournies, no. I would say the same thing about riptides and knight titans too. Plus spam lists are never fun to play against.

Friendly games with serpent and wk spam? I'd not like to have such "friendly games" at all.

Thats why I love highlander-list-setups... no spamming anymore... less balance issues...

In my opinion spam lists like the one of the OP are boring to play (with and against), look boring on the field and dont need any kind of skill.

Regards

what's highlander-list setups?

Just 1 of every unit type. Troops and dedicated transports wont be limited usually, but I recommand limiting them to... 0-3 for troops ans 0-2 for transports to avoid serpent spam.

Remember that you can still have more than 2 transports but just not more than 2 of the same type.

Such a setup doesnt fix all the balance probems, but without spam lists games are much more entertaining and less rock-paper-scissor than normal games.