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As an older player I have an idea that 40k games used to be smaller than the games today. It appears that point creep and new models are taking games to a grander scale. These games have less appeal to me due to the increased investment, greater time between turns, and increase game time. Do you think GW will come out with a smaller game format similar to killzone or dare i say necromunda? Or does the idea of a smaller game format have potential to siphon sales away from the main game, leading to less models sold.

What do you think dakka?

I doubt it. 40k *was* the skirmish game, and they've now turned it into 28mm Epic and encourages higher and higher points to sell more and push their new philosophy of "If you buy it, you should be able to use it in a game". They cancelled Necromunda because they saw it as competition with 40k (i.e. you would buy for Necromunda gang and not buy to use in 40k) so it'd be against their crazy world view to do the same thing.

I could see the producing a 28mm Skirmish game with Superheavies

Adeptus Titianicus 2nd ed............

 Mr Morden wrote:
I could see the producing a 28mm Skirmish game with Superheavies

Adeptus Titianicus 2nd ed............

Give it a year or so and 40k will probably be that.

They already do, its called Killteam.

End thread ↑

I would release it in a box and call it Space Hulk

As already said, Kill Teams and Space Hulk.

The way I see it 40K is not a skirmish game. There are lots of skirmish games on the market like Warmachine and Infinity, so GW have no need to enter that market anymore. It's surely why 40K has such a big following, there are very few large scale sci-fi wargames on the market.

 Ugavine wrote:
As already said, Kill Teams and Space Hulk.

The way I see it 40K is not a skirmish game. There are lots of skirmish games on the market like Warmachine and Infinity, so GW have no need to enter that market anymore. It's surely why 40K has such a big following, there are very few large scale sci-fi wargames on the market.

Uhh... 40k was a skirmish level (well, company/platoon level) game for most of its existence. It's only recently (past 5 years or so? I don't know when Apocalypse first came out) that it's moved to allowing things that were previously permission only and intended only for major all day battles to the normal game.

The 40k I remember playing was basically a larger skirmish game, maybe 30-50 guys a side (horde armies excluded if that's how you wanted to play).

It is true that there is spacehulk and kill teams. Both of these are fantastic games that I play. It is unfortunate that these games dont have full support of GW anymore.

Ugavine makes an excellent point that this is the only "large scale" game on the market anymore, and if it entered the "skirmish" department it would have to compete with well established games.

Its just a shame as I dont have the time or means to play the newer 40k format.

GW wont ever produce another skirmish game unless there are some drastic changes at HQ because the current line of thinking is that selling you a $100 army for a skirmish game is stupid when we the customer are just as likely to by a $500 40k army instead.

Rogue Trader was a skirmish game. That and 2nd edition broke down at the bigger game sizes, leading to "Well, all you fans want to use all of your miniatures in your games, so we're going to streamline the mechanics so that you can."

Since then, every "skirmish game smaller than 40k" version of 40k has been a half-hearted introductory level version of 40k. Because there's no point in spending money to sell people on a smaller game size.

Maybe play different games but with 40k minis if you're just trying to get the 40k flavor in skirmish format. I figure GW wouldn't make as good a skirmish game as others out there anyway.

Skirmish games don't sell mini's (for GW) that is why they killed all the older skirmish games, next 40k edition will be all apocalypse style, more bigger mini's!

GW has a weird process where they make a juryrigged skirmish thing, then get rid of it every two years or so.

Skirmish games don't sell big numbers of miniatures initially. But when your core game's base level of play requires a crazy amount of cash to play at the intended point values, you need a game to bridge the gap.

And let's face it, anyone who stays in the skirmish game probably wasn't going to buy into the larger game, or your larger game is crap.

 Vertrucio wrote:
And let's face it, anyone who stays in the skirmish game probably wasn't going to buy into the larger game, or your larger game is crap.

GW Logic: Cancel the skirmish game and people will HAVE to go to the larger game, because it's not like GW has any competition at all...

 Twoshoesvans wrote:
As an older player I have an idea that 40k games used to be smaller than the games today. It appears that point creep and new models are taking games to a grander scale. These games have less appeal to me due to the increased investment, greater time between turns, and increase game time. Do you think GW will come out with a smaller game format similar to killzone or dare i say necromunda? Or does the idea of a smaller game format have potential to siphon sales away from the main game, leading to less models sold.

What do you think dakka?

I agree with you about the game size inflation. It is a deliberate policy by GW to sell more models.

I doubt they will produce something to reverse that policy, however you can easily play 40K at lower point ranges. I think the 1,000 to 1,500 point range is very good.

If they wanted skirmish 40k they could revamp and re-release Necromunda, but this is not the way they think

It was interesting that last year there was such a buzz about GW possibly releasing a limited edition 28mm Inquisitor warband game. A lot of people would have bougt into that.

However, that would be it a limited copy run, with very little WD support.

GW only has one thought on the direction of 40k, to crank out more ways to keep people spending big on 40k. So heavier model counts and expensive "must have" unit/vehicles

It'd be nice to see, but as folks have mentioned, GW's way seems to be to push 3 big products and nothing else.

However, as to folks saying that the warband size skirmish market is crowded (infinity, malifaux, etc), the warband skirmish market has always been crowded, yet GW still did well with Necromunda and Mordheim. A GW skirmish game would likely sell well, but I don't think that the resources that it would require would give a proportional return in terms of sales.

Put another way, it would probably be successful, but the % of profit wouldn't be as high. Even a big company like GW might not have the leway to be able to focus their creative and production resources anywhere but direction of the most profit.

That's the problem with seeing only numbers, and not the bigger picture.

Profit margin on a 40k skirmish using the same miniatures would be less. However, its usefulness as a stepping stone game up to the giant battles cannot be understated.

Anyone who would only stay with the skirmish version would probably have never bought into the larger game, but even those people might eventually amass enough miniatures over the years to jump into the larger version, assuming you make both games good enough.

The apparent impression of GW is that skirmish games compete with their big games despite being very different products. A lot of people don't want to play 40k but like necromunda. Restricting products to 40k won't force them to buy it and also means that someone's first GW game has to be a big one like 40k or Fantasy. So many of us older gamers got into GW through Space Hulk, Heroquest or Necromunda. But GW today simply don't wish to bother. It's worth noting that their greatest period of expansion was during the 90s when their company was at its healthiest and making all these other games.

The only new game they've made in 10 years is Dreadfleet, which specifically tried to be totally incompatible with anything else within or outside GW, and then made it a limited edition with no support. Which seems to show they like the money but don't want anything 'competing' with their big games so make it completely alien, unlike necromunda that gave you a handle on 40k rules. Also it was terrible design, which makes me question their competency in game design, something essential if they were to release a variety of games again. The codecies for 40k lurch around in quality and power level. It just seems they can write stuff but don't have much grasp on good game design, maybe the result of letting so much of the more experienced studio go.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Twoshoesvans wrote:
As an older player I have an idea that 40k games used to be smaller than the games today. It appears that point creep and new models are taking games to a grander scale. These games have less appeal to me due to the increased investment, greater time between turns, and increase game time. Do you think GW will come out with a smaller game format similar to killzone or dare i say necromunda? Or does the idea of a smaller game format have potential to siphon sales away from the main game, leading to less models sold.

What do you think dakka?

I agree with you about the game size inflation. It is a deliberate policy by GW to sell more models.

I doubt they will produce something to reverse that policy, however you can easily play 40K at lower point ranges. I think the 1,000 to 1,500 point range is very good.

I agree, but this is still too much time for me and my group. I always preferred 500-750 point games, with a minimum FOC of 1 HQ and 1 Troop choice. I keep mentioning killzone because it turned out to be perfect for some of my friends and me. It captures all the variety and charm of the larger games, but in a 30 min format. Kill teams is an excellent format that is closer to my needs, but I felt it excludes some models that really belong in a smaller size game. I would love to see GW take the killzone style game play to the next level. But if I am being honest with myself, I do not see it happening.

I guess its just hope that GW will make a game that panders to me, so I dont have to punish myself and my friends by attempting to learn a new game, only to give it up and sell the models on the swap shop (see my trade thread for my failed attempt at getting into FOW).

I think it would be fairly easy to "homebrew" a decent skirmish game out of 40K by adapting the Kill Team rules.

Alternatively, games such as Space Hulk and MERCS offer a good small scale skirmish experience without complex and expensive rules and armies.

It's a real shame that the Inquisition game that was so rumoured cake to nothing. People were more excited about that than a lot of real things. GW won't listen though, and won't licence out their IP in case someone can do a competent skirmish 40k game.

It is possible to play 40K at Skirmish level - the old 40K in 40 minutes (500 points) rules sort of work - although when you compare them to other games 40K just isn't that good anymore.

if you want to play small games of 40K no one will stop you - but there is no way GW will release a platoon level 40K - how would they make everyone by stupid oversized tanks!???

Just play Infinity!!!!

Another option for skirmish level 40k is to play 2nd edition 40k with just a few small squads or just individual troopers and characters.

I went back and tried 2nd edition a year or so ago and while it felt pretty clunky as anything bigger than single-platoon-level (or bigger) I got the feeling that the level of detail is just right for a very small skirmish game.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2011/11/vintage-warhammer-40k-2nd-edition.html

Of course there's also the "Inquisimunda" homebrew rules that were quite well received a few years ago, expanding Necromunda into the rest of the 40k universe. You can still get them and the warband lists here:
http://empireofghosts.blogspot.com/p/inquisimunda-resources.html

For the "Kill Team is dead" crowd, it just got a new ruleset in December 2013: http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Kill-Team.html

I already play.

Its called- play platoon/ Squad level, and use each figure as his own unit. you have a bit more work for the game, but damn is it interesting, especially when you have interactive terrain, goals, replacements, and a battle roster to upgrade your squad/ platoon with. add in an officer and some enemies, and all your dreams and nightmares come true.

Rules- You use the same rules, but each figure or 2 to 3 man weapons team is its own unit. Grenades are ala 2d edition, additionally you can interrelate mordhiem/ necromunda rules in there for mechanics.

Vehicles, maybe one or two for the fights, and they aren't very safe if you know what to do.


... wonder if I should write this stuff down and throw it out there for others....

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For the "Kill Team is dead" crowd, it just got a new ruleset in December 2013: http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Kill-Team.html

So amend "Kill Team is dead" to "Kill Team is dead as City Fight or Storm of Magic (Because No One Plays That)"?

The Inquisimunda and Kill Team homebrew people have put more work into their unofficial products than the Black Library is likely to put into an e-book supplement.

 ntdars wrote:
They already do, its called Killteam.

kill team sucks. There is a huge lack of rules making several armies completely invalid. For instance, IG can not issue orders to their squad, only to an individual model. Unless my friend was being a dick and denying me that rule. Anyways, there is just so much that is in a gray obscurity for the game that was made basically just for space marines.