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At the LGS I recently started going to, there's a guy who helps run all the 40k league stuff. He's also apparently really good, to the point where you get bonus points in the league if you beat him. (It's more complicated than that, but I don't feel like explaining the details. He's really good.) After playing games, he traditionally gives pointers on how his opponent could have not lost as badly.
It was doubles night for the 40k league, two 1k teams. We both brought SoB, and ended up playing against him on his own. (This was voluntary, we were given the option to play against a normal team but wanted the challenge.) He brought Rhino/Nurgle Marines, my ally brought a bunch of Exorcists and Battle Sisters. I brought minimal troops, Celestine, and allied in a 700 point Inquisition deathstar with Coteaz, Priests, a Xenos Grenade-spam Inquisitor, Death Cultists, and Crusaders in a LRC with Psybolts and a Multi-Melta.

Long story short, we won. I caught him with his pants down, he had never played against an Inquisiton-Star before, assumed it was a big scary distraction beatstick, and I killed something like 20+ Nurgle Marines, a Predator, two Nurgle Lords, and a Hellbrute once I got to the meat of his army. (The Hellbrute and one Lord were technically alive when he surrendered at the end of turn 4, but with one Hull Point on the Brute, and I was in position to easily finish off the second Lord.)

And then he started giving bad advice. He's a nice guy, he wasn't being rude or anything, but it seemed a little odd that he was warning me against killing units he had bought as distractions or tarpits... When he literally had nothing left on the board to shoot at. If it had been a 6 turn game, I can garuntee he would have been wiped. He also said that 2 Tri-Las Predators were not something we should have worried about killing, and that we should have played to the mission more. (It was the 2-objective mission. We had all our Battle Sisters in a defensive formation around our objective, and my scoring Inquisitorial Squad had dug out an enormous chunk in his army, ending up right next to his objective by the end. (Admittedly, I only had 2 Priests left as far as scoring models go, but he had nothing left.)
He also said that if he had gotten better dice it would have gone differently... Though the main reason I hadn't finished him off sooner was a single failed Look Out, Sir! from the only S8AP2 weapon he had fired at my Inquisitory squad ended up killing Coteaz.

Long story short, I don't know how I should deal with this. He had some good advice, but all of it was related to psyching out your opponent. His actual tactics were mediocre, and not helpful in the slightest. Should I just tell him I don't want advice? I'm new to the group and I don't want to seem arrogant... It was also a closer game than I usually play, which was exciting, so I don't want to avoid playing him in general. Should I just grin and ignore it?

Advice is just that, advice. Be pleasant, offer advice of your own, listen to his, use what you want and disregard the rest.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Should I just grin and ignore it?

Yes

 Zande4 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Should I just grin and ignore it?

Yes

Yep. Seen this before. Just ignore it.

Yeah, doesn't sound as much like advice is needed as a discussion/debrief.
Just steer the discussion your way and learn more about the game and teach each other.
If he gives bad advice then tell him why it wouldn't work and brainstorm a better way to do things together.
Sounds like you've found an opponent of similar skill level so just get on with it and play a few more games.

Listen to his opinion, and then offer your own. Sounds like the start of an interesting conversation.

Opinions on tactics are subjective but don't assume because you won your tactics were flawless and don't need to be tightened up and his advice was automatically bad. Your Deathstar caught him on the hop but it is not that durable, it wouldn't have taken much for it to be dropped before it got through half those targets at which point which targets you engaged first can really matter.

If he'd already damaged/disabled the Exorcists the Las Preds would have had very little in the way of targets. Sustained fire might take out the Raider but once it had delivered your Deathstar it's not that important, add in the fact that Plague Marines often have Melta Guns and that's not really their job.. They don't have the rate of fire to kill Sisters and with Crusaders you are getting 3++ saves against them, Plague Marines rapid firing are much more of a threat to that unit. In an ideal world you want to kill all the enemy but killing them in the best order is a different kettle of fish.

If he is scoring wins with such regularity as to be considered the player to beat it's always worth hearing them out, whether you choose to take it or leave it.

Providing advice such as "don't forget the mission" is good advice for new players who get focused on killing the scary stuff or seeking revenge for the loss of their favorite unit.

To him, you are new to the group and therefore new to the game. Once he starts seeing more "star" units showing up he will up the ante and stop offering advice.

Then your 40k rivalry will be born!!!

Oh the horror of someone small talking and offering advice almost like he tried to socialize and break the ice.

His advice was downplaying your win. It is sore loser syndrome. He needs to take it like a man. Remember, you're only a victim if you cry.

Frankly, he wan't TRYING to give bad advice. He's been playing for ever and has won tournaments.

Before trashing his talk, give him a couple more games. He's able to beat the one dude's Eldar with the Wave Serpent spam and WKs. All with that same mostly fluffy Nurgle list.

He's well intentioned so just be polite if you disagree. He's also a hard ass, so I would stay away from openly disrespecting him.

 Smokeydubbs wrote:
Frankly, he wan't TRYING to give bad advice. He's been playing for ever and has won tournaments.

Before trashing his talk, give him a couple more games. He's able to beat the one dude's Eldar with the Wave Serpent spam and WKs. All with that same mostly fluffy Nurgle list.

He's well intentioned so just be polite if you disagree. He's also a hard ass, so I would stay away from openly disrespecting him.

He doesn't just play Nurgle Marines, he has like 4 armies. (CSM were just what he had brought that night.) I don't have a clue how often he brings it.

Maybe he thought that your win was just lucky and that you shouldn't expect to win like that every game?

Or maybe he was just frustrated in his loss?

Either way we're all most likely human and mistakes happen in interaction. Especially when emotions are high strung during or after a game.

I wouldn't be too quick to come to judgment on someone. Just keep being civil and listening to his advice, then just take it all with a grain of salt, so to speak.

Waaaghpower wrote:
At the LGS I recently started going to, there's a guy who helps run all the 40k league stuff. He's also apparently really good, to the point where you get bonus points in the league if you beat him. (It's more complicated than that, but I don't feel like explaining the details. He's really good.) After playing games, he traditionally gives pointers on how his opponent could have not lost as badly.
It was doubles night for the 40k league, two 1k teams. We both brought SoB, and ended up playing against him on his own. (This was voluntary, we were given the option to play against a normal team but wanted the challenge.) He brought Rhino/Nurgle Marines, my ally brought a bunch of Exorcists and Battle Sisters. I brought minimal troops, Celestine, and allied in a 700 point Inquisition deathstar with Coteaz, Priests, a Xenos Grenade-spam Inquisitor, Death Cultists, and Crusaders in a LRC with Psybolts and a Multi-Melta.

Long story short, we won. I caught him with his pants down, he had never played against an Inquisiton-Star before, assumed it was a big scary distraction beatstick, and I killed something like 20+ Nurgle Marines, a Predator, two Nurgle Lords, and a Hellbrute once I got to the meat of his army. (The Hellbrute and one Lord were technically alive when he surrendered at the end of turn 4, but with one Hull Point on the Brute, and I was in position to easily finish off the second Lord.)

And then he started giving bad advice. He's a nice guy, he wasn't being rude or anything, but it seemed a little odd that he was warning me against killing units he had bought as distractions or tarpits... When he literally had nothing left on the board to shoot at. If it had been a 6 turn game, I can garuntee he would have been wiped. He also said that 2 Tri-Las Predators were not something we should have worried about killing, and that we should have played to the mission more. (It was the 2-objective mission. We had all our Battle Sisters in a defensive formation around our objective, and my scoring Inquisitorial Squad had dug out an enormous chunk in his army, ending up right next to his objective by the end. (Admittedly, I only had 2 Priests left as far as scoring models go, but he had nothing left.)
He also said that if he had gotten better dice it would have gone differently... Though the main reason I hadn't finished him off sooner was a single failed Look Out, Sir! from the only S8AP2 weapon he had fired at my Inquisitory squad ended up killing Coteaz.

Long story short, I don't know how I should deal with this. He had some good advice, but all of it was related to psyching out your opponent. His actual tactics were mediocre, and not helpful in the slightest. Should I just tell him I don't want advice? I'm new to the group and I don't want to seem arrogant... It was also a closer game than I usually play, which was exciting, so I don't want to avoid playing him in general. Should I just grin and ignore it?

that's hilarious. play him again, if you win offer him some advice of your own.

I'll take another spin on if. The guy in question rarely loses, knows he's a solid player, and wants to both show that he's a good sport and model for all the younger guys how to lose graciously, even if it was a bit if a mouse trap (no offense, but if you're beating someone with a list that they've never really dealt with before, it's less of a tactical genius moment, and more of a rules ambush).

How can he take the high-road? post game analysis and discussion was his route. I think we should be applauding his "no excuses" attitude on it and trying to engage in a meaningful conversation, instead of being either "yeah, suck it!" or "how dare losers give advice".

I've not lost a club match since Aug of '11. When it happens (and it will), I hope I handle it with grace poise and maturity, but I know it will be a little tough to see a streak end (even if it is just toy solders)... if I walk away from a trap match having only given bad post game advice, I think I'll feel good about that.

I'd feel more sympathy for the Rules Ambush if he had actually let me explain the rules. When I was going over my list, I started to explain the Inquisitor and he waved his hand saying that it was fine, we'd get to it when we got to it.

Then all his Nurgle Marines were at -1 T and I1, my Priest ID'ed one of his Lords, everyone was rerolling everything, and we had to go over all of the rules anyways.


I definitely want to play against him again. Even with the surprisingly unhelpful advice at the end, it was still one of the more challenging games I've played in a while. I'll see how it goes when I bring my more 'traditional' (And, in my opinion, powerful) army list against him.

Good on you for giving this ego jockey a beating. Next time be sure to politely extend all your advice to him, such as "you might have actually won, had you not interrupted me when I was politely explaining my list to make this game go smoother for everybody".

 SHUPPET wrote:
Good on you for giving this ego jockey a beating. Next time be sure to politely extend all your advice to him, such as "you might have actually won, had you not interrupted me when I was politely explaining my list to make this game go smoother for everybody".

I disagree. Out nice them. Being a jerk to a jerk doesn't prove or improve anything.

 Lobukia wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Good on you for giving this ego jockey a beating. Next time be sure to politely extend all your advice to him, such as "you might have actually won, had you not interrupted me when I was politely explaining my list to make this game go smoother for everybody".

I disagree. Out nice them. Being a jerk to a jerk doesn't prove or improve anything.

Agreed. "Kill them with kindness."

He really wasn't rude, or even arrogant, I think the idea of losing was just so foreign to him that he didn't think it was possible. He acts like sort of a patron adviser of new or up-and-coming players, and he actually did give me some useful tips a few weeks ago.
As an interesting note: His giving advice to me, and assuming that I would follow it, was a major part of his downfall. A lot of his advice revolves around scare tactics and drawing enemy fire onto scary bur non-threatening targets. He thought my Deathstar was supposed to be one of those scary magnets, (and even commented near the start of the game 'So it's a big, scary threat?' or something like that.)
This let me move closer without him doing a thing to react. It also helped that he didn't think anyone was capable of killing 14 Nurgle Marines and a Lord in one turn...

Waaaghpower wrote:
He really wasn't rude, or even arrogant, I think the idea of losing was just so foreign to him that he didn't think it was possible. He acts like sort of a patron adviser of new or up-and-coming players, and he actually did give me some useful tips a few weeks ago.
As an interesting note: His giving advice to me, and assuming that I would follow it, was a major part of his downfall. A lot of his advice revolves around scare tactics and drawing enemy fire onto scary bur non-threatening targets. He thought my Deathstar was supposed to be one of those scary magnets, (and even commented near the start of the game 'So it's a big, scary threat?' or something like that.)
This let me move closer without him doing a thing to react. It also helped that he didn't think anyone was capable of killing 14 Nurgle Marines and a Lord in one turn...

Yeah, I've both benefited and been burnt by unfounded assumptions about the powerlevel and threat of enemy units. Now, I quiz people about each unit as it comes into play (like you said earlier, I'll learn the rules when it hits, might as well get them before hand). I also do a "tour of my list" with every opponent and pointedly ask them if there's any special rules they need to know or want to see out of a book before the dice start rolling.

I think he was trying to be nice guy. Maybe his advise isn't your style.. Cool, but it is his. Listen to it, be polite like you would want him to be and do what you want to with it later.

As for the list thing. I always run down my list with my opponent. Including pointing to models as I go. Makes for less of a hassle later

Ever thought that maybe both of you playing sob made him not bring his best army ? Stuff like tri las preds are rather bad units and it doesn't seem like he had enough helldrakes , he also took fluffy troop choices instead of the normal cultists. He took a hellbrute for Christs sake , it doesn't get any more casual then that. Did he at least play Crimson Slaughter for the uber lord and divination ?

I'll clarify it some more.

Yes he has more than one army. He has a DE/Eldar list that is good in it's own right. But his main army is Death Guard. He doesn't min/max and still wins most of the time. I should also like to point out the skill of your teammate as well. So it was him vs. you two. Two good players, that is.

Anyway, none of this is a big deal and I'm confused at the point of the thread. He gave advise after a loss that wasn't egotistical. I would hope most people were like that in this hobby. Just play with him some more or watch some of his games and you'll see why he has so much respect in that place.

Edit:
If anyone wants to know his tournament list that he does win with occasionally. It's a straight Death Guard list. Multiple units of plague marines in Rhinos. Tri-Las Preds. No Heldrakes. It's an example of skill over list when he beats the min/max lists at tournaments.

Makumba wrote:
Ever thought that maybe both of you playing sob made him not bring his best army ? Stuff like tri las preds are rather bad units and it doesn't seem like he had enough helldrakes , he also took fluffy troop choices instead of the normal cultists. He took a hellbrute for Christs sake , it doesn't get any more casual then that. Did he at least play Crimson Slaughter for the uber lord and divination ?

He didn't know I was bringing SoB. He knew I had Space Wolves, Marines, SoB, and Inquisition with me. I had said that I couldn't decide which to bring. (Which was true, I didn't know what my Ally had in terms of SoB, so I didn't want to double up on something he could already do.)
He didn't bring Crimson Slaughter, no. (And the way he talked, I believe he thought that the Hellbrute was a pretty major threat once it gets into the backfield.) Of course, he was bringing Lords of Nurgle and had no Psykers, so I don't think Crimson Slaughter would have been that useful for him.
Another thing he seemed to think was that Nurgle Marines are the best troop choice. (Or at least a really good one.) The way he talked, it seemed like he considered them to be somewhere around indestructible. As for Tri-Las Preds, he said after the game that he was using them (To some success, apparently?) as a distraction unit to tie up our firepower. To be fair, he Preds did do a really good job of tanking like two turns of firepower. From my Land Raider Crusader, which had no other good targets to fire at. And an Exorcist, which also had no other good targets to fire at on turn 1.

He did go on record (so to speak) as saying he wasn't fond of Helldrakes on account of fluff, so there was at least a certain amount of toning down to his list. On the other hand, though, an Inquisition-Star is not the most powerful list I could have brought. Not by a long shot. It is fun to use and has some neat tricks, but it's so painfully easy to counter it. If he had just stayed out of assault range for one turn and then blown up my Land Raider, followed by everything inside (Something he likely could have done without much trouble and without taking much damage, none of the Sisters of Battle were causing any real hurt at range,) I would have been completely screwed, and he would have utterly vaporized my army. (And then, without my Deathstar killing two thirds of his army, we would have lost our backfield objective too.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smokeydubbs wrote:
I'll clarify it some more.

Yes he has more than one army. He has a DE/Eldar list that is good in it's own right. But his main army is Death Guard. He doesn't min/max and still wins most of the time. I should also like to point out the skill of your teammate as well. So it was him vs. you two. Two good players, that is.

Anyway, none of this is a big deal and I'm confused at the point of the thread. He gave advise after a loss that wasn't egotistical. I would hope most people were like that in this hobby. Just play with him some more or watch some of his games and you'll see why he has so much respect in that place.

Edit:
If anyone wants to know his tournament list that he does win with occasionally. It's a straight Death Guard list. Multiple units of plague marines in Rhinos. Tri-Las Preds. No Heldrakes. It's an example of skill over list when he beats the min/max lists at tournaments.

I'm not that great at social interaction, and I just wanted some opinions on how to deal with bad advice. (Hence the original questions, 'Should I just ignore it, tell him I don't want advice,' etc.) He is a pretty friendly guy, I certainly have respect for him, I just was surprised that most of his suggestions weren't really helpful and I wanted tips on how to go into this without coming off like a jerk. So that's the point of the thread, I guess.

(And, as a side-note, it was my Teammate's first game with Sisters of Battle in this edition, or with their new codex. He took a fairly mediocre list with several over-costed choices. (Such as a 200-ish point Canoness.) With his movement, he also set himself up for some pretty devestating Flamer hits, arranging his 10-man units to take 7-8 hits per flamer. I don't really know how good of a player he is normally, but his use of a brand new army wasn't stellar.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, Smokeydubbs: I plan on talking to him about this if it comes up again, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring this up to him. (The whole, "I'd rather he hear it from me first' thing. Out of the horse's mouth and all that.)

Oh course I wont. But your partner of the time is a DA master apparently. Came up with a list that see's a lot of tourney play.