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Hi had a battle on Wednesday that went awfully - and what I mean by that is it's made me sad and started making me feel less in love with the game.

it was a 1000pt friendly. except it wasn't.

I brought 1000 pt the other guy brought what I later worked out to be over 1300 pts of chaos nurgle.

I brought
1 spiritseer +5 wraithguard in ws with SL SC and HS
10 Guardians with SC in ws with SL SC and HS
3 Jet Bikes
2 Fire Prisms

he brought
5 Nurge Havocs with missile launchers
5 Nurge havocs with las canon
1 dreadnaught with twin las canon and missile
1 Nurge terminator chaos lord 5 Nurge terminator marines (1 lightning claws, 5 with power weapons and 1 flamer)
10 Nurge chaos marines (missile plus melta)
10 Nurge chaos marines (missile plus plasma)

I was new there and not played 6th edition much (but know the rules well) what is worse is there were about 20 tables at the gaming club mostly empty - he placed us on a table "way over there" (6 tables away) with 3 buildings all on "his" side and then casually said "shall I just stay on this table edge" it was a friendly so I was like "sure" I was like "missions?" he was "no". "objectives?" "no" so my jet bikes were a waste of points really, and so was taking 3 troop choices to a 1000 pt game. that was how the game went. he proxied an unpainted army. I painted mine. it was hard for me to prioritise whne everything was something else. I was easy about it. Sure, he was smiling. but doing everything wrong with it. I wasn't allowed to this, I wasn't allowed to that - I had to show him Eldar are BS4, I had my book open 4 times a go, but I never asked him to do the same. not once. he had the only buildings. he took his casualties off from the back even though it was not allowed saying "they are all in a line" he said 2mm of ankle cover was hard cover. he said that I couldn't psychic this, nor can I show him where it says I can fire the ws shield etc etc it was one long session of I can't do that nor could I move my tanks flat out properly, yet all the while he stood unmoving (and I had no cover) and shot basically 13 hw a turn into my tanks. he never rolled a fear test even though I reduced 1 havoc squad and one 10 man squads to about 4 tests in total - and they were on the back line board edge -. I lost the will to live but stayed friendly but every single rule he re-wrote another rule to his favour - frowned and double questioned everything that I said, bringing over friends towards the end (who also joined in lying about the rules to the point where I just gave up trying - I hate arguing) anyway I went home feeling bad and thinking something as wrong - checked the chaos codex and then felt MUCH worse

sure I was tabled . I was actually a little unlucky but with no LOS blocking cover and no use for my jet bikes I was basically in trouble from turn 1

even later (when you take mandatory HQ and troops aside 1000 pts gives very little room to play with an army build) what I later realised is that had I dropped the jet bikes I could have taken my 20 warp spiders - and then it would have been "even". twenty. more elites. that was the gap

Sorry to hear of your bad experience.

Was this guy considerably older than you? From what you've explained at multiple points during that game I'd of asked him to knock it off or jacked the game. The guy sounds a total dick.

It is most surely him not you. Don't hang yourself up on this guy and think everyone is like that. He will run out of willing opponents quickly. Nobcheese

well for me it's important to stay friendly, I don't mind loosing (I actually prefer if it makes me think harder) we were about the same ages (in our thirties) thing is I (personally) like painting more and I only play one game every now and then. I wanted to try me newly painted items hence organised a game. he's fairly well known there I think (by the way everyone chatted to him) it's my second game there (at the club) and - come to think of it - the other game there (different person) was a high degree of questioning of the rules / calling a unknown-to-me passer by club member to arbitrate some rule rather than look it up. oh well.

You brought a strong list against a terrible person, who brought a cheating list. This person, and their friends are just bad people. You can find them in any game system, and basically anywhere on earth unfortunately. Wildboar is right, just outright refuse to play against these types of people and they will go away or change. It might be the club, unfortunately...in which case your kinda screwed.

Im going to have to take a more aggressive stance on this bud...

I can tell by your typing that you are the kind of person that doesnt like conflict, but you need to stand up for yourself. Im not saying fight the guy, but call him out on stuff. Sure its just a game but there is nothing wrong with keeping someone honest, while at the same time playing a game you love. I've called people out loads of times and even had them acuse me of bending the rules, but I stood my ground and told them politely how it is and if they have a problem, that we could pack up our minis and call it a day.

Obviously this guy and his friends are not worth your time so you shouldnt feel compeled to play them again. Even more-so, I would have pulled the manager aside and explained the situation saying that you felt alienated and abused. If he or she cares about their business, they will take care of the situation... chances are this wasnt the first time the person has done this...

The problem here is with both your opponent and you. He is cheating, whether purposefully or out of ignorance. At the same time, you are letting him get away with it. You are continually letting him victimize you. You need to stand up for yourself and plant your foot down. I'm not talking about being a donkey-cave about it. I'm talking about being polite and yet at the same time, remaining firm. The problem is that he is going to continue playing it wrong/cheating until people start calling him out on it. Don't let him take advantage of you (and of others).

J is right, and Its always a pain to have to call someone out, but they only tend to do it that once... if they know your paying attention they don't want to be caught.

Knowing the rules is huge, if you can't.. find a way to get even just the base costs in your head. I use battlescribe on the fly, on my phone, if I don't own that dex. I'll plug their list in while set up is going on.

If your 300 points over... I always say something like, oh.. I thought we were just playing 1000 see you brought 1300... let me get some more models... if they bark at that... I show them the list.. or ask them to had me the dex... If they get defensive... I say oh, well this could be wrong.. show me so I know for the future....

There are always ways around it.. if they rage at you.. just say thanks but no thanks and don't play them.

I had a game with a guy at our LGS who was acting the same way, sadly for him, and his riptide which he placed ON TOP of the 4 corners of ruins at the very top and said "its legal, how mad"....

Well as he walked by I gave him a soft bump and he knocked his Riptide off and it fell to the ground, smashed into pieces.

I laughed at him and said "Karma is a bitch"

He's on Dakka too which makes this all that much better.

Stormbreed wrote:
I had a game with a guy at our LGS who was acting the same way, sadly for him, and his riptide which he placed ON TOP of the 4 corners of ruins at the very top and said "its legal, how mad"....

Well as he walked by I gave him a soft bump and he knocked his Riptide off and it fell to the ground, smashed into pieces.

I laughed at him and said "Karma is a bitch"

He's on Dakka too which makes this all that much better.

Uh....ok.

That was funny as hell....but to the readers, I don't recommend you do anything like that ever to your opponent. Don't do anything to others that you wouldn't want have done to you as well. Karma can come back and bite you in the ass.

Jy2 is a competitive player, and you are not. But I agree with his tough love.

I do have to say that the friendly games I've lost (and there are alot), when I've seen cheating, I just let it go unless it's egregious and seemingly puposeful.

For example:

You fire into his line of troops and his sgt is in the first wound pool containing 3 minis. He rolls 3 saves and fails 2. He keeps his Sgt. He didn't randomize or say which was which. That's really not that big of a deal. On purpose, but understandable and kinda fluffy.

Claiming better cover than I think is appropriate... not a big deal either. But once there is disagreement, I go through the whole table to clarify right then and there.

Telling me what my codex can and can't do. Frak that. You are mistaken, my friend. My Shok Attack Gun certainly did just turn Epidemus into a squig without a save. Sorry bro... If it causes a problem... "good game" <shake> move on. I've never ever ever ever had to quit like that, but I'd like to think I would.

Now I have seen JY2 play online and in person, he's friendly but firm. He knows the rules and would let similar stuff to me slide in a friendly game, but he's right. You can't let douches be douches. If you don't call them on it, you'll lose a player from your pool. If you educate them, they become a better player and maybe a recurrent opponent that you can trust. If they don't... well douches will be douches.

Soon jy2... soon you will feel the wrath of the northstate Waaagh! Then you'll table me by T2.

Stormbreed wrote:
I had a game with a guy at our LGS who was acting the same way, sadly for him, and his riptide which he placed ON TOP of the 4 corners of ruins at the very top and said "its legal, how mad"....

Well as he walked by I gave him a soft bump and he knocked his Riptide off and it fell to the ground, smashed into pieces.

I laughed at him and said "Karma is a bitch"

He's on Dakka too which makes this all that much better.

And I thought Canadians were such lovely people

Sorry to hear about your bad experience, hopefully it's only one or two people and not the whole area.

Next time see if you can bring a seriously OP list. That will cancel out his 300 pt advantage. And just ask lots of questions, they can't get angry if you're "learning" and maybe they can learn a thing or two about manners and playing fair.

Stormbreed wrote:
I had a game with a guy at our LGS who was acting the same way, sadly for him, and his riptide which he placed ON TOP of the 4 corners of ruins at the very top and said "its legal, how mad"....

Well as he walked by I gave him a soft bump and he knocked his Riptide off and it fell to the ground, smashed into pieces.

I laughed at him and said "Karma is a bitch"

He's on Dakka too which makes this all that much better.

Do these sorts of things at your own risk... I have watched some unfortunate "psychical" altercations over damaged models...

Maybe Stormbreed is a big, imposing dude and the other guy is a small, skinny dude.

 doktor_g wrote:
Jy2 is a competitive player, and you are not. But I agree with his tough love.

I do have to say that the friendly games I've lost (and there are alot), when I've seen cheating, I just let it go unless it's egregious and seemingly puposeful.

For example:

You fire into his line of troops and his sgt is in the first wound pool containing 3 minis. He rolls 3 saves and fails 2. He keeps his Sgt. He didn't randomize or say which was which. That's really not that big of a deal. On purpose, but understandable and kinda fluffy.

Claiming better cover than I think is appropriate... not a big deal either. But once there is disagreement, I go through the whole table to clarify right then and there.

Telling me what my codex can and can't do. Frak that. You are mistaken, my friend. My Shok Attack Gun certainly did just turn Epidemus into a squig without a save. Sorry bro... If it causes a problem... "good game" <shake> move on. I've never ever ever ever had to quit like that, but I'd like to think I would.

Now I have seen JY2 play online and in person, he's friendly but firm. He knows the rules and would let similar stuff to me slide in a friendly game, but he's right. You can't let douches be douches. If you don't call them on it, you'll lose a player from your pool. If you educate them, they become a better player and maybe a recurrent opponent that you can trust. If they don't... well douches will be douches.

Soon jy2... soon you will feel the wrath of the northstate Waaagh! Then you'll table me by T2.

Lol.

BTW, did we happen to play against each other at the Contest of Champions 2250 last year? I was the guy who brought the scary looking Necron army with a lot of wraiths.

No... I'm pure orkishness. Did see you at LVO. Didn't introduce myself. I am easily intimidated by celebraties!!!!

 Roci wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
I had a game with a guy at our LGS who was acting the same way, sadly for him, and his riptide which he placed ON TOP of the 4 corners of ruins at the very top and said "its legal, how mad"....

Well as he walked by I gave him a soft bump and he knocked his Riptide off and it fell to the ground, smashed into pieces.

I laughed at him and said "Karma is a bitch"

He's on Dakka too which makes this all that much better.

Do these sorts of things at your own risk... I have watched some unfortunate "psychical" altercations over damaged models...

He had "pushed" by me multiple times while measuring ect, this time I just stood my ground. I play as much as most highly competitive people, and play in large tournaments. However, this guy was just trying to make a point with his idiocy, I actually didn't intend for his model to fall but I'd have been a filthy lier if I didn't let him know why it happened.

As for most tuff situations. Try and remember its a game. Sometimes it's okay to take your toys and go home.

OP- Don't feel bad. He had to cheat to beat you. The worst kind of player. Never agree to play him again.

Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself. That is to say... Every time. Every single time, with no exceptions.

ConanMan wrote:
well for me it's important to stay friendly, I don't mind loosing (I actually prefer if it makes me think harder) we were about the same ages (in our thirties) thing is I (personally) like painting more and I only play one game every now and then. I wanted to try me newly painted items hence organised a game. he's fairly well known there I think (by the way everyone chatted to him) it's my second game there (at the club) and - come to think of it - the other game there (different person) was a high degree of questioning of the rules / calling a unknown-to-me passer by club member to arbitrate some rule rather than look it up. oh well.

I play competitive tournaments, with no comp and the like, but I still feel buggered by certain armies. It's not armies that counter me for valid reasons that I mind - I know I'm boned if I Don't have an R'varna and have to play against Daemons. That's cool because that's what I Signed up for playing tau. What really gets to me is the kind of army that doesn't let you have any fun or do anything. I Don't mind getting beaten because your army counters my army, or you outplayed me. But when your army refuses to let me do anything on a rules level, it's not fun. For example, playing GK with daemons is a hard matchup, but one they can win or lose with pride. Daemons against 6 scythes + 3 drakes is unfun and I don't get to roll any dice. I just have to wait for him to pick me apart and that's never enjoyable. Your opponent just sounds like a gakker, not letting you play the game

To me it sounds like an issue with the club. the club has its "own way" of doing things and that's never gonna end well. Consider finding a new club if things don't look up.

I may be wrong here, but the OP is probably quite new to the game.

Knowledge and being firm on that knowledge is something that comes with time. As a newer player, you may be hesitant to pull your opponent up the on rules, thinking "he's experienced, he probably knows". Over time, with practise and knowledge, you'll be doing that as part of your games. I know I forget things like pinning tests and stuff, and my opponent will remind me. I thank them for reminding me, the game is too complex and large to know and remember everything when you're moving so fast during the game.

If he's doing it on purpose, pull your rulebook out, find the rule and show it to him. If he still wants to be an ass, roll off for it. Unless it's a tournament or something, then get an expert.

I don't mind playing some rules wrongly if my opponent is interpreting them wrong. I'll play him on his level and beat him with my tactics. But moreover, i'll have a fun time because I don't care about the result anymore. If my opponents cheating, I can't lose the game, i've already won!

Always roll for table-sides, missions and objectives. Or create your own. Smashing armies for 5 turns is never as enjoyable, and never makes for a tactical game.

As for the points differential, i'd look at it this way. You were playing a pretty solid eldar list, against a themey, ill-constructed chaos marine list. I think it's well within reach to overcome a 30% difference, why not take that challenge?

Us Australians have an expression "We're not playing for sheep stations!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_for_sheep_stations. 40k is meant to be a fun, social game. Do what you can to make it so, taking what you can when you have a game against a douche. If having a good time involves not playing this douche again, then that's you're option. But i'd be looking forward to the chance to play him again when you've got more knowledge, experience, and are willing to even things out.

ConanMan wrote:
Hi had a battle on Wednesday that went awfully - and what I mean by that is it's made me sad and started making me feel less in love with the game.

It's not the problem with a game. It's the problem with the opponent. I'd just quit playing at first sighn of such douchebaggery.

Sometimes it's perfectly fine to alter the rules or close the eyes on some 'cheating' if both players agree on the matter. For example, i alwayz discuss the alteration on MC and FMC cover saves from area terrain. I think that it's dumb that they get cover from having a toe in a crater so i try to persuade my opponent to use the same rules as vehicles do - if 25% obscured than they have cover, if not - no cover. But if the opponent doesn't agree on that and wants to stick to raw, i accept cause my army are orkses and we have no mc and i understand that even being logical, this rule alteration is profitable for me and damaging for the opponent. Sometimes i allow failed charges to reach me like when the model's 1' away cause i know that pain - i play orkses since 5 ed Besides, we don't generally check the movement distance with a microscope. Sometimes models move further, sometimes less far so this inaccuracies stack over game. Besides, i love mellee, no matter if i charge or get charged

The other thing is when one of the players claims obviously wrong stuff to be true like the time when an eldar player measured los from the end of the barrel of a platform that was not facing my model - it was rotated presicely 90 degrees - perpendecular - so that he could barely see the side of a warbuggies wheel! Sure thing i asked him to rotate his platform so that it was actually facing the thing he was gona shoot. But he decided not to do so. As a result i had to end the game emidiately no matter that i was pretty sure he'd get tabled cause of how many deployment errors he made.

It's just a tabletop game! And i see no point in playing a game that's 100% won't gona be fun and friendly.

Other player sounds like an ass.

 koooaei wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Hi had a battle on Wednesday that went awfully - and what I mean by that is it's made me sad and started making me feel less in love with the game.

It's not the problem with a game. It's the problem with the opponent. I'd just quit playing at first sighn of such douchebaggery.

Sometimes it's perfectly fine to alter the rules or close the eyes on some 'cheating' if both players agree on the matter. For example, i alwayz discuss the alteration on MC and FMC cover saves from area terrain. I think that it's dumb that they get cover from having a toe in a crater so i try to persuade my opponent to use the same rules as vehicles do - if 25% obscured than they have cover, if not - no cover. But if the opponent doesn't agree on that and wants to stick to raw, i accept cause my army are orkses and we have no mc and i understand that even being logical, this rule alteration is profitable for me and damaging for the opponent. Sometimes i allow failed charges to reach me like when the model's 1' away cause i know that pain - i play orkses since 5 ed Besides, we don't generally check the movement distance with a microscope. Sometimes models move further, sometimes less far so this inaccuracies stack over game. Besides, i love mellee, no matter if i charge or get charged

The other thing is when one of the players claims obviously wrong stuff to be true like the time when an eldar player measured los from the end of the barrel of a platform that was not facing my model - it was rotated presicely 90 degrees - perpendecular - so that he could barely see the side of a warbuggies wheel! Sure thing i asked him to rotate his platform so that it was actually facing the thing he was gona shoot. But he decided not to do so. As a result i had to end the game emidiately no matter that i was pretty sure he'd get tabled cause of how many deployment errors he made.

It's just a tabletop game! And i see no point in playing a game that's 100% won't gona be fun and friendly.

Pretty much what this guy said!

I play a weekly friendly with Marines against Tau, I am still quite new to 6th ed as is he other player so we use it to learn and work though the new rules (we are both still a bit stuck in 4th ed rules in our heads!)

Friendlies should be just that, try to keep the terrain equal, allow for silly mistakes from time to time and have some fun.

I totally forgot that my termies had a 5+ inv save the other week and had lost a VP because we where playing purge the alien, my opponent agreed to wipe it off the score (he still won regardless) and I think thats what these kind of games should be.

Why play if your going to let some cheat? Don't be mean just be firm. Would play Monopoly letting the guy start w/ a set of 3 properties?

Rules are needed or might as well set up and then let him roll some dice and kill your stuff while you just move models around as targets. Wait nm that is what happened.

My very 1st game was vs someone like that.. He said and I quote, "I am you elder and your better the rules are how I say they are." I called over the store owner showed him the rule and asked him to clear up the dispute. After 4 times the guy stopped trying to cheat. He now doesn't even show at this store.

Belly wrote:


Us Australians have an expression "We're not playing for sheep stations!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_for_sheep_stations. 40k is meant to be a fun, social game. Do what you can to make it so, taking what you can when you have a game against a douche. If having a good time involves not playing this douche again, then that's you're option. But i'd be looking forward to the chance to play him again when you've got more knowledge, experience, and are willing to even things out.

I have never heard that expression. Also, 40k is for WAAC master race players only.

1. scipio gets points for not playing a jet council.
2. what store is this (p.m if you want)?

One of the benefits to miniature wargaming is that it provides a real social experience. Unfortunately, this brings with it all the pitfalls of doing stuff with real people.

Some people are just crazy jerks, in 40k as in the real world. You've unfortunately stumbled on one of them (though thankfully not in the form of him being an angry customer, crazy landlord, etc.). In the real world, you're sometimes forced to deal with horrid people, but in 40k, thankfully, you're not.

In this case, just never play with this person again. There are tons of excuses if you don't want to be up-front about why you won't, but at least you'll be spared this kind of experience in the future. Eventually as more and more people quietly refuse to play a person, they'll probably very slowly stop showing up, and your problem will be solved for everyone.

Stormbreed wrote:
I had a game with a guy at our LGS who was acting the same way, sadly for him, and his riptide which he placed ON TOP of the 4 corners of ruins at the very top and said "its legal, how mad"....

Well as he walked by I gave him a soft bump and he knocked his Riptide off and it fell to the ground, smashed into pieces.

I laughed at him and said "Karma is a bitch"

He's on Dakka too which makes this all that much better.

So let me get this straight... This guy had been egging you on in a game of toy soldiers, had done a beardy but legal move, teased you again, and so you broke his model. You sound like an even bigger douche canoe than the guy the OP was talking about. This is about as childish as losing a game of shoots and ladders and flipping the whole table over it. I hope that one day some one does this to you and says the exact same line "Karma is a bitch" while stomping all over the pieces of your favorite model. You disgust me.

If some one is a cheat, suspected of cheating, or is ignorant of the rules. Call it out! You don't even have to be mean about it. If you're new -- even better. You simply ask your opponent to show you the rules, the codex, the supplement, etc that is allowing them to do what they're attempting. If they can prove what they are doing is legal, by all means let them go for it, if it's not legal you've just made them catch themselves. Another good practice is to ask your opponent to provide you with a written or printed army list before the game so that you can see how the points are spent and not run into situations where your opponent has 300 more points of models than you. Also, as has already been suggested, play missions! a mindless meat-grinder of models is never fun.

Now that that's out of the way. Lets talk about passive aggression and how it's a horrible and stupid thing for people with no backbone! I understand that no one likes a belligerent person, but that doesn't mean you can't be assertive. You don't need to call a person an outright cheat or quietly ostracize them from a group to get them to conform to the actual rules of the game. I'll play the devils advocate here and say you should play the guy again! When you do you should also check him on every single thing you find suspect. You don't have to be loud about it, draw attention to your games, or cause a big scene, but make your opponent know you're aware of his bs. If the guy (or store) is just ignorant of the actual rules of the game, you could be the guy who whips them into shape and gets them playing the way the rules are written.


In closing just remember to not be a complete tool shed like the quoted poster. Don't ever stoop to the level of breaking someone's toys out of frustration.

Edit: My word of the day is canoe. Required addition integral to quality of post.

ConanMan wrote:
Hi had a battle on Wednesday that went awfully - and what I mean by that is it's made me sad and started making me feel less in love with the game....

Oh mate, sorry to hear that. Some comfort could be that its not fault of game, but the guy...which means that people are gak...its not much comforting, is it?
And I completely understand you, I rather bite my tongue then go full argument in friendly game. But this, this is over the top. He is clearly idiot and honestly, I cant understand what he gets by playing like that. Its not even tournament, he knows he is cheating and being dickish...

Probably half of people playing Warhammer went thru such experience, I guess... as many said before me, WH is game with social interaction and unfortunately, sometimes its interaction with scum.

OP, just turn the situation politely against the guy next time. If you end up having to play him and he picks a table with an unfair terrain setup, ask him if he thinks the terrain is fair. If he says yes, simply declare that you're taking the better side then by default since he set it up in what he thought was a fair manner. I had a guy do that in a convention OGRE game (my first ever). He took the minis from the side he was on and cherry picked the ones he wanted to play (visually the biggest ogres with the most bells and whistles judging from the rules sheets). I asked him (since it was a 2v2 game) if he thought the split was a fair one and he said yes... so I declared that I was taking the ones he set aside for himself. All of a sudden, it wasn't fair...