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I haven't played 40k in years, but with the upcoming release of the "Astra Militarum" Codex and some of the rule changes I heard for 6th ed, my interest has re-kindled. But when I went down to my local gaming store, the price for new IG soldiers and vehicles made my eyes bug out. So I went around online and found much, much, much cheaper miniatures and model vehicles in a scale that's good for 40k games. Now I'm stoked to buy and paint up a brand new IG army.

I went back to my local gaming store and asked what the policy was for non-GW minis. They said they were okay, but I would be barred from tournaments and the league. But pick-up games would be fine. I was okay with this.

Then someone pulled me aside (I'm the newest guy at the local gaming store) and told me as nicely as he could that it's bad form to use non-GW miniatures for even casual pick-up games. Showing up at the store would basically make everyone there think I was trying to be a "special snowflake" with my army, and basically being "That Guy" since my army would look nothing like the rest of the GW-made Imperial Guardsman. I assured him that the only reason I wasn't using official-GW figures was simply a matter of pricing, not because I wanted to rattle any cages or make any waves. I just wanted to show up, play, and socialize. He told me, still trying to be nice about it, that it didn't matter and perception was everything. Nobody would still play with me and my army would be pariahs nobody would want to play with.

So I figured I'd take this to a forum where the most 40k vets can see it and let me know what they think. Please understand the guy who took me aside isn't a jerk, he was just trying to give me a "reality-check" (I think). If it really is bad form to bring non-GW minis to a game store for casual games, please be brutally honest with me and let me know that's just the way things are. If it isn't bad form, I'd still appreciate some advise or an estimate on how many people might not play against my Army (outside of GW-sanctioned leagues and tournaments of course).

If it matters, the miniatures I intended to use would look like the attachments below, but with conversions to make everything look more "sci fi" and fit better into the 40k universe. I had intended to replace the infantry heads with full-headed sci-fi helmets, figure out a way to make their rifles look more lasery (need suggestions on that), and replace the "real" guns on the vehicles with GW-vehicular weapons. I intended to use the M113s as Chimeras, and the M20 armored cars as Tauros Venators.

As long as you don't take them into a GW store, make them the right scale and make them look 40k, you should be fine.
There are quite a few people who tend to use dreamforge stuff for their 40k games, I believe.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
As long as you don't take them into a GW store, make them the right scale and make them look 40k, you should be fine.
There are quite a few people who tend to use dreamforge stuff for their 40k games, I believe.

Oh that's a good point: I forgot to mention that my local game store IS NOT an official GW store. Thanks

Just don't go into the gw store with them. I'd rather play against a painted non-gw army than a unpainted gw one.

It depends on the store. GW stores obviously will throw you out (perhaps not literally). Local game stores it all depends, some are strict on "no third party anything" some don't care as long as it's reasonable, some allow bottlecaps and shoeboxes as proxies.

It seems most are on the as long as its 28mm we don't care train of thought, but it seems like your store might have a lot of pro-GW people that don't want to play against "non GW" armies even if it's something reasonable like using 28mm sci-fi infantry to represent Imperial Guard.

Some people might have a problem playing against non-GW models. You should just not play games with those people in case it would upset them. I wouldn't let their bias affect my choice of figures. Personally I love playing against well done non-GW conversion armies.

It allways hard to judge how people will judge the viability of your models, I would play with you with a army made with those as long as everything was okie visually so could allways see the difernt war gear and such. (So no need to ask where stuff is standing in a unit before movement for shooting and such)

Where I am it's generally ok to do that, I have even used none GW in a tournament. But all appropriate size and done to be unique.

Realy only way is to talk to the people there about it, and if you are not willing to buy GW. Walk away, the store should defenatly notice.

Does the store sell the alternate minis, if not then the players could be sticking up for there local store in such a way itself.
Pay where you play and such

Good in my books.

Just bear in mind that most historical miniatures are "true" 28mm, and third party sci-fi bits tend to be made with 40k's 28mm "heroic" scale in mind. Those Pig Iron helmets you posted already look big on guardsmen, so imagine how they'll look on those weedy soviets

If you can make the conversions look good, I say go for it. If your army looks cool and the other guy has a problem, he's not the kind of player you want to play against anyway.

Rule of cool applies here. Well, and WYSIWYG; make it easy for your opponent to figure what everything is.

I'd try and 'grim dark' up the models you plan on getting; rivets, a few aquilas, appropriate bitz scattered about.

 Signal wrote:


Then someone pulled me aside (I'm the newest guy at the local gaming store) and told me as nicely as he could that it's bad form to use non-GW miniatures for even casual pick-up games. Showing up at the store would basically make everyone there think I was trying to be a "special snowflake" with my army, and basically being "That Guy" since my army would look nothing like the rest of the GW-made Imperial Guardsman.

Doesn't seem anything like "That Guy" behavior to me - if anything, it fits Guard fluff perfectly. So what if a huge chunk of them use Cadian equipment and doctrines, they're still countless soldiers raised from countless worlds. Of course they're going to look different. It's only within the context of the regiment that they're all faceless mooks!

For what it's worth, I certainly wouldn't have a problem, provided you spent some time making them look 40k-ish (which it sounds like you plan on, so good on you!) I'm not the one you have to convince, though. Probably would be best if you talked it out tactfully with other people who frequent the store to try and gauge whether it really is store culture or GW is slipping the guy who pulled you aside a few free bitz

 Signal wrote:
I haven't played 40k in years, but with the upcoming release of the "Astra Militarum" Codex and some of the rule changes I heard for 6th ed, my interest has re-kindled. But when I went down to my local gaming store, the price for new IG soldiers and vehicles made my eyes bug out. So I went around online and found much, much, much cheaper miniatures and model vehicles in a scale that's good for 40k games. Now I'm stoked to buy and paint up a brand new IG army.

I went back to my local gaming store and asked what the policy was for non-GW minis. They said they were okay, but I would be barred from tournaments and the league. But pick-up games would be fine. I was okay with this.

I suspect this is the heart of the matter.

No reasonable person has an issue with well done "counts as" models.

A lot more people are likely to have a problem, and arguably justifiably, with people not laying where they play.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Signal wrote:
I haven't played 40k in years, but with the upcoming release of the "Astra Militarum" Codex and some of the rule changes I heard for 6th ed, my interest has re-kindled. But when I went down to my local gaming store, the price for new IG soldiers and vehicles made my eyes bug out. So I went around online and found much, much, much cheaper miniatures and model vehicles in a scale that's good for 40k games. Now I'm stoked to buy and paint up a brand new IG army.

I went back to my local gaming store and asked what the policy was for non-GW minis. They said they were okay, but I would be barred from tournaments and the league. But pick-up games would be fine. I was okay with this.

I suspect this is the heart of the matter.

No reasonable person has an issue with well done "counts as" models.

A lot more people are likely to have a problem, and arguably justifiably, with people not laying where they play.

Of course it also depends on what your LGS stocks. Mine barely stocks anything, so even if I wanted to pay retail there I couldn't without placing a special order.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Signal wrote:
I haven't played 40k in years, but with the upcoming release of the "Astra Militarum" Codex and some of the rule changes I heard for 6th ed, my interest has re-kindled. But when I went down to my local gaming store, the price for new IG soldiers and vehicles made my eyes bug out. So I went around online and found much, much, much cheaper miniatures and model vehicles in a scale that's good for 40k games. Now I'm stoked to buy and paint up a brand new IG army.

I went back to my local gaming store and asked what the policy was for non-GW minis. They said they were okay, but I would be barred from tournaments and the league. But pick-up games would be fine. I was okay with this.

I suspect this is the heart of the matter.

No reasonable person has an issue with well done "counts as" models.

A lot more people are likely to have a problem, and arguably justifiably, with people not laying where they play.

I would have no problem special-ordering everything I could from the gaming store I go to, rather than ordering it online.

I'm trying not to ruffle any feathers here, I'm just trying to play the game on the cheap.

Depends on where you are, as some said. At my store nobody would care and may even compliment you. That guy sounds like a douche so don't pay much mind to him. Unless most people at your store is like that.

Not a lot to add to what's been said other than that my IG army has precisely 1 GW model in it (a Russ). The rest is a combination of Mantic, Wargames Factory and Warzone, and I've never been criticised for it, and often complimented.

Put the effort into making them look 40k, and no one should reasonably have an issue with it. I myself would relish the chance to see more non-GW stuff on the field.

 Signal wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Signal wrote:
I haven't played 40k in years, but with the upcoming release of the "Astra Militarum" Codex and some of the rule changes I heard for 6th ed, my interest has re-kindled. But when I went down to my local gaming store, the price for new IG soldiers and vehicles made my eyes bug out. So I went around online and found much, much, much cheaper miniatures and model vehicles in a scale that's good for 40k games. Now I'm stoked to buy and paint up a brand new IG army.

I went back to my local gaming store and asked what the policy was for non-GW minis. They said they were okay, but I would be barred from tournaments and the league. But pick-up games would be fine. I was okay with this.

I suspect this is the heart of the matter.

No reasonable person has an issue with well done "counts as" models.

A lot more people are likely to have a problem, and arguably justifiably, with people not laying where they play.

I would have no problem special-ordering everything I could from the gaming store I go to, rather than ordering it online.

I'm trying not to ruffle any feathers here, I'm just trying to play the game on the cheap.

Oh, no feather ruffling or judgment here, I just spotted something in your post which would explain the guy's reaction better than just you turning up with a neat counts as army and him getting arsey over it.

 Signal wrote:

I would have no problem special-ordering everything I could from the gaming store I go to, rather than ordering it online.

I'm trying not to ruffle any feathers here, I'm just trying to play the game on the cheap.

Doing it that way ensures the support of the owner/operator if nothing else. You've got one person's opinion from your store, maybe take a look around and see if you see anyone else following the same train of thought or just ask other people what they thought. Personally, I wouldn't mind as long as I can tell what everything is and you've actually put some care and thought into it.

From the pics you posted above, I think I would be okay with the infantry and the APC as a Chimera. I don't think you're going to find a suitable substitute for a Leman Russ, however. (Feel free to prove me wrong)

All in all, I think I would have to see an army like that on the table before I knew if I wanted to play against it or not. I like to be able to look and know what units are what, and what weapons they have. If I can look at a squad and say, "that guy has a flamer, those guys have a missile launcher" than okay.

Personally, if you want to get in on it on the cheap, I would start at eBay.

Well, there's not way to please everybody. For the most part, stores just want you buying stuff, they dont' care if its GW or not.

Some people will object. Its their way. It turns out that real world tough guys are less common than internet tough guys though, so paint your army and you'll no doubt get plenty of use.

It sounds like the store Signal will be playing at has a very specific "culture" among the 40k players and proxies are just out.

Signal, do you know if the fellow who pulled you aside to talk about proxy armies was a major personality at your LGS? If he is heavily involved with the 40k scene at that shop this may have been his way of cluing you in to how things are done there. If that is the case it sounds like your proposed army won't go over well as the other players at the shop have already formed their opinions on proxied armies. Which would leave you very much ostracized by the other players and would make playing there not much fun at all. Are there other local shops that you could check out or is this one the only geographically desirable game shop in your area?

 Signal wrote:
I'm just trying to play the game on the cheap.

Then you should forget about third-party bits entirely. In my experience, a set of custom heads and guns costs as much as a set of suitably scifi-ish miniatures like Mantic's Corporation Troopers or Dreamforge's Eisenkerns. Third-party bits are sought after by dedicated modellers and collectors, and are not quite suited for gaming on a budget. If you want to go with a certain style or customize the looks of your force and costs are not an issue, give it a go. If not, I'd suggest alternate minis or ebay.

UPDATE - I JUST CAME BACK FROM MY LOCAL GAMING STORE:

It seems I have been grossly misinformed on my local gaming store culture, and even the rules for the local league. After reading and being encouraged by what you guys had to say, I went back to ask a few more people and the store owner. The store owner wasn't there but his wife was, and she informed me that store owner is the guy who MADE and POSTED the league rules up on the wall. Nobody pointed those rules out to me before, but she did and lead me over to them. There it was in black and white: "Non-GW models will be approved on a case-by-case basis."

She told me he'll be back tomorrow so I'm going to go back in, show him pictures of what I intended to build, ask him if they would be approved for league play, and special-order everything I possibly can from him if he gives me the thumbs-up.

Awesome to hear!

I never have a rule with counts-as as long as it is completely clear. Just beware of making IG players jealous.

Talk to some more of the players and gauge their reaction. That one guy may be the "weird one" that wouldn't play against you and everyone else may be fine. On the flip side, he could be telling the truth. You won't know anything for sure until you talk to more people. We have no way of knowing what your store is like.

More than likely, they've seen some terrible proxies and are just worried that's what you will do.. Nothing gets players more upset than seeing an IG player fielding unpainted proxies with no attempt to make them fit in to the aesthetic.

To overcome this kind of stigma, you'll have to do some serious work on converting your minis, use actual GW special weapons where possible, and most importantly, PAINT THEM. Well painted minis will go a long way towards getting them to play against you.

It may also be worthwhile being very clear and up front about your intention to source as much as you possibly can from the store.

Call me crazy, but if suspect that'll give your odds of gaining approval a huge boost.

I'm a GW purist and don't want to play 40k with other company's models myself (well, making an exception for Victoria Lamb's stuff). However, if other folks use non-GW models, so long as they look good and some modicum of effort was put into them to make them look setting-appropriate, I'll happily play against them. So long as it's clear what's what, I'm happy to play.

 Brother SRM wrote:
making an exception for Victoria Lamb's stuff

Pretty much the best thing since sliced bread.

I need her Matilda tank. I need it bad.

 Signal wrote:
I haven't played 40k in years, but with the upcoming release of the "Astra Militarum" Codex and some of the rule changes I heard for 6th ed, my interest has re-kindled. But when I went down to my local gaming store, the price for new IG soldiers and vehicles made my eyes bug out. So I went around online and found much, much, much cheaper miniatures and model vehicles in a scale that's good for 40k games. Now I'm stoked to buy and paint up a brand new IG army.

I went back to my local gaming store and asked what the policy was for non-GW minis. They said they were okay, but I would be barred from tournaments and the league. But pick-up games would be fine. I was okay with this.

Then someone pulled me aside (I'm the newest guy at the local gaming store) and told me as nicely as he could that it's bad form to use non-GW miniatures for even casual pick-up games. Showing up at the store would basically make everyone there think I was trying to be a "special snowflake" with my army, and basically being "That Guy" since my army would look nothing like the rest of the GW-made Imperial Guardsman. I assured him that the only reason I wasn't using official-GW figures was simply a matter of pricing, not because I wanted to rattle any cages or make any waves. I just wanted to show up, play, and socialize. He told me, still trying to be nice about it, that it didn't matter and perception was everything. Nobody would still play with me and my army would be pariahs nobody would want to play with.

So I figured I'd take this to a forum where the most 40k vets can see it and let me know what they think. Please understand the guy who took me aside isn't a jerk, he was just trying to give me a "reality-check" (I think). If it really is bad form to bring non-GW minis to a game store for casual games, please be brutally honest with me and let me know that's just the way things are. If it isn't bad form, I'd still appreciate some advise or an estimate on how many people might not play against my Army (outside of GW-sanctioned leagues and tournaments of course).


If it matters, the miniatures I intended to use would look like the attachments below, but with conversions to make everything look more "sci fi" and fit better into the 40k universe. I had intended to replace the infantry heads with full-headed sci-fi helmets, figure out a way to make their rifles look more lasery (need suggestions on that), and replace the "real" guns on the vehicles with GW-vehicular weapons. I intended to use the M113s as Chimeras, and the M20 armored cars as Tauros Venators.

I'd play ya, most the guys I know would to. You would even beable to enter leagues. The only catch is the minitures your using need to be as close to scale as what there representing as possible. Its the conversions gamers do that make this game soooo much fun. GW or 3rd party, who cares. It's all good!

Jeez, I honestly can't even comprehend the mindset that would take issue with well done, non-GW miniatures.