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Never been to these parts of dakka before, so here goes.
Our friend the dreadnought is a real lackluster in most armies.
With some few exeptions they dont shoot enough, dont swing enough attacks and usually dies sooner than the points you pay for it would suggest.

I was thinking about how to make him more usefull and first thought about making him an IC and enable him to hide away in a unit.
Given ld 10 (and perhaps stubborn for a venerable) he would be a devastating unit member.

Second, i thought about making him a "dedicated dreadnought", meaning a unit that may take dedicated transports could instead of a ride take a dreadnought as a unit member, overriding the FOC but forcing the dreadnought to stay with certain units.

A unit obviously benefit from a high AV shooting platform in their ranks, but they would be forced to footslog. And the dreadnought would benefit from the meatwall/added wounds.

What do you think? Would it make a meaningful change to the old relic? Would it be cimematic enough?

The problem is in the fact that you are mixing and matching two unit types. I think it would be easier for me to do an example so let me try here:

We got 10 Marines and 1 Dreadnought in a unit and I fire on it with bolters.

Do I roll to wound? Or armor pen?

I fire a lascannon at the unit, does the Dread get a LOS? If so...how? Why?

Vehicles and walkers cannot break in combat. What happens if their unit does? Does this mean a Dreadnought can be swept?

While in principle it's not a bad idea, it kinda runs into a rough patch on execution. You either have to construct a rather convoluted series of rules to explain it away, or you run some serious risks for exploitation. An example of this would be putting a Dread in front. All of the bolters/lasguns/etc that would hurt the guys just bounce off the Dreadnought, while anti-tank fire is LOSed.

All of the above Is actually very easy to resolve within the rules, use closest model for t or av, or just allow the vehicle to be shot as normal but with a cover save, look out sir is also very easy to resolve by shifting a hit before damage is rolled instead etc

The new Hellbrute formation lets you take a Dreadnought with 2 units of cultists (basic chaos troops). For no additional cost (And no FOC) you get:
-Fearless on the troops
-3+ cover save for the Dreadnought when obscured by the troops
-Hatred on the troops if the dreadnought dies

Every time you pass a cover save you kill a troop instead. I think this is pretty good rules for a dreadnought amidst a throng of troops. IC on a dreadnought would be incredibly overpowered as you can LOS anything that is very dangerous (lascanons, meltaguns etc) and be immune to everything else (bolters etc).

I think the imagery of it is absolutely fantastic, and I like the idea of dedicated walker to implement it.

As Curran says though, the actual execution would require some very careful thinking and probably a lot of exceptions, which is never a good thing.

However, it's an interesting problem, and one I'll be thinking about for a while now.

 Formosa wrote:
All of the above Is actually very easy to resolve within the rules, use closest model for t or av, or just allow the vehicle to be shot as normal but with a cover save, look out sir is also very easy to resolve by shifting a hit before damage is rolled instead etc

Actually, it is not that smooth. While it seems simple, what it means is individually rolling every shot, as the potential for T/AV changes now between model and model. That is not smooth or enjoyable to play as.

To do something along the lines of the helcult formation, maybe have a rule where all heavy weapons fired at the tactical squad must be allocated onto the dreadnought.

This way many of the heavy weapons typically causing marines problems are being allocated onto something more durable, and the dreadnought gets some shielding from the horror that is 6th edition walkers in close combat.

Could do something like choosing targets of X coverage or less, but instead change it to Armor. Thus, if a group of bolters fire into the group, they can shoot at the less armored troops in the group. For everything else, use precision rules? Thus, if you fire a Lascannon into the group, you pick off the closest, unless you roll a 6, in which case you could specifically aim at the dreadnought?

This should also work for any other formations where you put, say MCs into a group (say, hormagaunts + carnifex or termigaunts + tervigon)

Also, what about making the dreadnought a "sergeant" upgrade? Thus, 9 Tac marines led by a dreadnought?

Walkers in Infantry units:
Walkers in Infantry units must maintain squad coherency.
The reassuring nature of the armoured support lends courage to the squad. Units with an attached Walker that is not Immobilised or Wrecked are Stubborn.
The squad may move out of coherency with an Immobilised Walker in exactly the same was a a Vehicle Squadron may abandon squadron-mates.

The close defence of the walker by its squad, with covering fire and constant movement, makes it harder to pick out the Walker from afar.
Whenever firing at an Infantry unit with a Dedicated Walker make an additional roll for each hit after rolling to hit but before rolling to wound.
On the roll of 6+ the shot will strike the Walker in units of ten or more Infantry models.
On the roll of 5+ the shot will strike the Walker in units of nine or fewer Infantry models.

----

Do you think sentinels with guardsmen and war walkers with guardians would make sense too?

I was actually thinking about this when I was building up my Dreadnought recently. Sounds like a great idea and I think your rules sound pretty nice Slaanesh-Devotee.

I immediately thought of the Helcult formation when reading the thread title.

Try those rules out and see how it works out. Should be fun.

Honestly it would just be like Focus Fire, you choose to shoot the Marines and the shots are against them, you choose to shoot the Dreadnought he gets a cover save.

No really additional rules needed, but I agree that he should grant the Stubborn but the whole unit should move at the lowest dice roll when rolling for moving through cover.


So my rules would be

Dreadnought must maintain Coherency with the unit he is leading.
If a Crew Stunned, Immobilization, or Shaken is rolled on the damage chart , the Dreadnought ignores it.
Members of the Squad can make a Look out Sir !! for the Dreadnought
Firing at the unit you may choose to focus fire even if no member of the unit is in cover.
If you choose the squad resolve as normal
If you choose the Dreadnought he is treated as obscured
If the Dreadnought dies, unit gains Hatred

Great input all!
I didnt know the helbrute formation could do that, sounds like a good thing to try out to begin with.
Im not terribly up to date with the whole bying rules for formation to be honest. Perhaps its worth looking in to (especially before proposing new rules, eh )

Here's how I think it should work:

OPTIONS (TACTICAL SQUAD):
- A Tactical Squad that is no less than 10 models strong (excluding Independent Characters) may include a single Dreadnought for the appropriate points cost. This Dreadnought may not be Venerable and cannot replace its power fist for another weapon.

SPECIAL RULES (TACTICAL SQUAD):
Dreadfist Configuration: A Tactical Squad may not include both a Dedicated Transport and a Dreadnought. A Dreadnought treats this Tactical Squad as a Vehicle Squadron he is part of. In addition, after rolling To Hit with ranged weapons you must decide whether the hits land against the Tactical Squad or the Dreadnought. If the Dreadnought is the chosen target, Armour Penetration rolls are made as normal and it gains a 5+ cover save against Glancing and Penetrating Hits. If the Tactical Squad is chosen, they may re-roll failed armour save results of 1 (this including Independent Characters joining the unit). Note that this does not let them take their armour saves against attacks which would ignore them anyways.


Kind of a side note, but I wish 10-man Tactical Squads could get additional benefits like this. I'd love to see 10-Man tactical squads being able to take Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers as their Heavy Weapon.

Just for fun.

Chapter tactics: Blue Bombers

Ancients among us-

All dreadnoughts in the Blue Bombers chapter have IWND.

Every sergeant in a squad of Tactical marines can be upgraded to a Dreadnought for 125pts.

He comes armed with a DCCW/w under slung storm bolter and a Twin-linked assault cannon.

If you upgrade the sergeant you can no longer purchase a dedicated transport.

Every sergeant in a squad of veterans can be upgraded to an Ironclad Dreadnought for 170pts.

He comes armed with a DCCW/w underslung Heavy Flamer and chainfist/w under slung meltagun.

Any chaplain may be upgraded to a chaplain dreadnought for 140pts. He is armed with a Crozius Arcanum and 2 twin-linked heavy bolters. His rites of battle now affects all friendly space marine models within 12" and he becomes a Character instead of an Independent character. He may only attach to a command squad that is purchased for him and cannot unattached from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW having a vehicle mixed into the squad already exists in game.


Ravenwing can purchase a landspeeder with their bike squads instead of an attack bike.

All that sounds good Eihnlazer, and I am thinking about having units of Dreadnoughts. A squadron like the Warwalkers and Sentinels but with Imperial Dreads. Maybe have these be formations of veteran Dreads that come together at dire circumstances, like in the BA codex when the Furioso Dreads banded together to defend Baal.

We acctually have a Dreadnought codex somewhere in this forum if you wanna search for it with some more ideas.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ravenwing can purchase a landspeeder with their bike squads instead of an attack bike.

It is purchased as part of the unit, but it acts as a separate unit during the game. For the previously mentioned reasons having a vehicle in a non-vehicle unit breaks the game.

separate unit?

You can even use it to combat squad the unit. How would it be separate if you are using it to split your bike squad into 2 units?


It makes rolling for wounds broken strictly raw but its not hard to handle in game actually.

You shoot at the unit, determine hits, then look which model is closest. If its the vehicle you roll penetration one at a time till vehicle is gone then swap over to wounding.

So yes you have to use a house rule, but theres nothing weird about that. GW rules are crap.

Eihnlazer wrote:
separate unit?

You can even use it to combat squad the unit. How would it be separate if you are using it to split your bike squad into 2 units?

Seriously, go back and read the rules before posting about them. Page 47, under "Ravenwing combat squad", clearly tells you how they work. The speeder and attack bike are purchased as part of the same FOC slot, but act as separate single-model units during the game.

It makes rolling for wounds broken strictly raw but its not hard to handle in game actually.

It's not just broken strictly RAW, it's broken under any possible interpretation of the rules. You roll to wound/penetrate armor before allocating wounds/damage results. This is about as much of a RAW/RAI issue as my claim that my lasguns are STR 10 AP 1.

So yes you have to use a house rule, but theres nothing weird about that. GW rules are crap.

Just a house rule that completely re-writes the wound allocation rules. This is not a minor change.

All dreadnoughts in the Blue Bombers chapter have IWND.

I think this is under-powered for AV12, because they will likely just explode with a penetrating hit and not have a chance to regenerate. It's a bit hard to tell because I don't have a huge experience fielding my dreads (It might be over-powered for ironclads with AV13).

My idea to fix the squishy dreadnoughts:
- Make them cheaper out of the box (perhaps 90 pts)
- Make their ranged weapon upgrades cheaper.
- Add some optional upgrade to avoid getting blown up on turn 1, like cermite plating, it will not die, iron halo etc.

It would be rather game-breaking. Bolters and the like could be taken on the dreadnought while Lascannons could be LoS'd to the rest of the squad.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
It would be rather game-breaking. Bolters and the like could be taken on the dreadnought while Lascannons could be LoS'd to the rest of the squad.

That's why I randomised hits in my suggestion. Generally better to fire anti troop to clear away the men, but you could risk heavy weapons, although you'd probably only take out some one squishy...

Random allocation is very clunky.

in order to allow this, you'd have to do one of two things: make dreadnoughts into MCs or create a new rule on how to allocate wounds to mixed vehicle/infantry units. the first may not be so bad, the second would.open the floodgates of shenanigans.