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I like the idea of having a unit of vampires, its unfortunate that they can't be on foot but I'm curious on if its worth taking any. The max game size I will likely do is 2500 and Im wondering if their worth their points, I can't help but keep noticing that they only have 1 wound each and it sorta burns the idea of spending 50pts on something that only has a single wound.

Not really, they need a lot of chaff to work, require 2 plus characters and a 75 point banner to function properly and lose heaps of effectiveness if they lose one round of combat, their biggest drawback however, is that taking Blood Knights means you cannot take double terrorgheist or mortis engines.

I did notice that, with a lord, banner, vamp at least 1 extra rank you're looking at 1000pts for 10 wounds and 2 characters. I want to, I reaaaally want to but its hard to justify because a canonball or template drops on them it can easily knock a bunch down, and the 4+ ward will only save so many. Not to mention they are toughness 4 and only haveee a 3+ regular save.

Do the black knight bus instead. Still plenty killy, easier to ressurect, and you don't care as much if you lose them.

No, they are not worth it. 50 points for toughness 4, 1 wound, and you resurrect them one at a time. If you're curious as to how fast they die, look at Black Knights. They're also toughness 4, single-wound models with no ward save, and they die in droves.

To top it all off, taking Blood Knights means you can't take the other extremely strong choices from Rare. Black Knights are Special and half the points.

Blood Knights in the current VC book are the definition of "not worth it." They are, by far, the least efficient unit in the book.

BronzeJon wrote:
Do the black knight bus instead. Still plenty killy, easier to ressurect, and you don't care as much if you lose them.

The problem is with black knight buses, you rely on characters to do the damage. Without them, half the killing potential of the unit is lost.

 Tangent wrote:
No, they are not worth it. 50 points for toughness 4, 1 wound, and you resurrect them one at a time. If you're curious as to how fast they die, look at Black Knights. They're also toughness 4, single-wound models with no ward save, and they die in droves.

To top it all off, taking Blood Knights means you can't take the other extremely strong choices from Rare. Black Knights are Special and half the points.

Blood Knights in the current VC book are the definition of "not worth it." They are, by far, the least efficient unit in the book.

Whilst most of this is true, they are not 'not worth it'.

They're an expensive glass cannon. S7 on the charge, with a 2+ save. The ability to get a 4+ ward vs shooting attacks is expensive, but good.

As a bus, they're brutal, but not as cost efficient as black knights. I'd still say they have a place.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Whilst most of this is true, they are not 'not worth it'.

They're an expensive glass cannon. S7 on the charge, with a 2+ save. The ability to get a 4+ ward vs shooting attacks is expensive, but good.

As a bus, they're brutal, but not as cost efficient as black knights. I'd still say they have a place.

No chance. Black Knights are S6 on the charge, with a 2+ save. They've got an ability to get +1 to hit from a cheaper banner. And they're half the price, and you can take more of them because they're special, and they don't restrict your ability to take TGs or MEs.

Everything has got to be compared to what could be taken in it's place. I'm not really referring to Black Knights here, though the point could be made. I'm referring to the other Rare choices.

What I'm getting at is... what list, in which Black Knights are fitting in their "place," is overall and/or generally stronger than another VC list that includes TGs or MEs? TGs and MEs "have their place" too, and they're more often useful and powerful in a larger number of lists and against a larger number of opponents. I'm just having a trouble thinking of a list that I'd rather have against many different opposing armies that includes Black Knights as a perfect fit to the overall strategy.

 Tangent wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Whilst most of this is true, they are not 'not worth it'.

They're an expensive glass cannon. S7 on the charge, with a 2+ save. The ability to get a 4+ ward vs shooting attacks is expensive, but good.

As a bus, they're brutal, but not as cost efficient as black knights. I'd still say they have a place.

No chance. Black Knights are S6 on the charge, with a 2+ save. They've got an ability to get +1 to hit from a cheaper banner. And they're half the price, and you can take more of them because they're special, and they don't restrict your ability to take TGs or MEs.

Everything has got to be compared to what could be taken in it's place. I'm not really referring to Black Knights here, though the point could be made. I'm referring to the other Rare choices.

What I'm getting at is... what list, in which Black Knights are fitting in their "place," is overall and/or generally stronger than another VC list that includes TGs or MEs? TGs and MEs "have their place" too, and they're more often useful and powerful in a larger number of lists and against a larger number of opponents. I'm just having a trouble thinking of a list that I'd rather have against many different opposing armies that includes Black Knights as a perfect fit to the overall strategy.

Minimum unit for flanking. That's what they're for. And anti armour. To deal with skullcrushers and the like reliably, you have access to the ogre blade vamp lord, the lance/potion vamp lord, or these guys.

Run a black knight bus for the characters, and then blood knights and hex wraiths for support.
12 S7 attacks and 4 S4 attacks is pretty beefy for 200 points.

You just need to run them in an army with bigger threats to take the pressure off them in the magic/shooting phase.
With the full cav build (black/blood knights + hex wraiths) you typically have more cav than your opponent can deal with.

-Matt

5 of them outputs 15 S7 attacks on the charge and 5 S4. For only 250 points that's really not bad. Give them the flaming banner too and now you have something really effective at taking down tough monsters with regen. 15 attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s is nothing to shake a stick at, and neither is WS5 S5 every turn after the first.

However the real benefit of them is that they're vampires, so can march outside of your general's LD bubble. That adds a lot of tactical flexibility.

They're a less "optimal" choice than terrorgheists, but sometimes that's exactly what you're going for. People don't like playing against the netlist, and if you can bring the pain with the "suboptimal" choices many will appreciate that. And played right, I DO think you can use them to really bring the pain.

...just make sure you have lots of dogs to control the deployment phase, and drop them dead-last. Also I wouldn't take bigger units than ~7, or add characters, as then you're creating a really juicy targets that's easy to get points out of. Remember that champions don't count for Look Out Sir!, and they only have to drop you below 5 before your general is catching cannonballs in his teeth.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

However the real benefit of them is that they're vampires, so can march outside of your general's LD bubble. That adds a lot of tactical flexibility.

Pretty sure they're leadership 7 and frenzy.

Ld7 and frenzy is why you take the gleaming pendant.

i think 220 for 4 is alright... its compact enough that warmachines will have a hard time doing significant damage, hard enough that most small arms wont be very reliable, and hits hard enough to do serious damage if an unblemished squad gets to a target.

Think of them as your ranged attack: a fire and forget missile meant to crush ranged units, weaken hard units, or compound combat resolution when you have a decent 'bus' involved as well.

Kiwidru wrote:
i think 220 for 4 is alright... its compact enough that warmachines will have a hard time doing significant damage, hard enough that most small arms wont be very reliable, and hits hard enough to do serious damage if an unblemished squad gets to a target.

Think of them as your ranged attack: a fire and forget missile meant to crush ranged units, weaken hard units, or compound combat resolution when you have a decent 'bus' involved as well.

Yup.
They kill most monsters in the game with ease, and just erase most smaller elite units (like monstrous cav, or enemy cav).
The only real problems I've run into is warriors of chaos, where everyone is packing S5 or more and init 5 or more.
Even then, usually their is a monster, chariot or hell cannon somewhere

-Matt

 Tangent wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

However the real benefit of them is that they're vampires, so can march outside of your general's LD bubble. That adds a lot of tactical flexibility.

Pretty sure they're leadership 7 and frenzy.

Yes, but that's why you need dogs to screen them from things you don't want them charging. Failing that, it's still a 58.3% chance of succeeding on the check (or 82.6% with a reroll, say from gleaming pennant). By then they should be in range of stuff that you WANT them to charge, so you can send them crashing right in. They're not a point-and-click option to be sure; they come with all sorts of pitfalls and downsides. Even still they're a very mean unit that can lay on some SERIOUS hurt.

Just don't spend more on them than you absolutely have to. A 250 point unit that goes careening off on frenzy-mode is an annoying setback. A 400 point unit that does that is extremely troubling. An 800 point unit that does that is the game.

4 or 5 is about all I think should ever be taken. That being said they hit like a truck on the charge so they can more than make back their points.