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Can you prevent a monstrous creature from gaining strength 10 attacks with Enfeeble, regardless of the MC's strength? For example, an Enfeebled Hive Tyrant is Strength 5. If he smashes, would his unmodified strength 6 be doubled to 10...then lowered back to 9?

No. It's a single equation - 6x2-1 capped at 10.

An enfeebled Tervigon you could

Fragile wrote:An enfeebled Tervigon you could

Siphen wrote:Can you prevent a monstrous creature from gaining strength 10 attacks with Enfeeble, regardless of the MC's strength? For example, an Enfeebled Hive Tyrant is Strength 5. If he smashes, would his unmodified strength 6 be doubled to 10...then lowered back to 9?

Underlined the important part of the post for you Fragile. Since you seem to have missed it.

I did not miss it. I was pointing out a MC that you could Enfeeble and be less than 10, since you already wrote out the equation.

Enfeeble reduces the MCs str by 1. Smash doubles it's current str. So a base of 6 is reduced to 5. When you smash, you look at the current characteristic value and double it, in this case to 10.

 Leonus wrote:
Enfeeble reduces the MCs str by 1. Smash doubles it's current str. So a base of 6 is reduced to 5. When you smash, you look at the current characteristic value and double it, in this case to 10.

Multiple Modifiers - multiply then add.

Your equation is incorrect, in other words. However, you still cannot reduce the smash to a 9 via Enfeeble.


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Am I missing something that says that, Happyjew?

 Leonus wrote:
Enfeeble reduces the MCs str by 1. Smash doubles it's current str. So a base of 6 is reduced to 5. When you smash, you look at the current characteristic value and double it, in this case to 10.

Not according to either Math or the Rules. Multiplication/Division before Addition/Subtraction. Not that it would matter because you don't round calculations in the middle, so wouldn't cap the Strength at 10 until you finish the calculation.

Oh, I see it now, my bad.

Can anyone give me a page number for that? It seems a little dumb that an Enfeebled Wraithknight (strength 9) would still be strength 9 when smashing.

Page 2. Multiple Modifiers.

You might also want to think a bit harder about that. You can't cap the result until after you know what it is, which means after applying all the multipliers.

Siphen wrote:
Can anyone give me a page number for that? It seems a little dumb that an Enfeebled Wraithknight (strength 9) would still be strength 9 when smashing.

Not how it works. You don't cap it at 10 until you finished all modifiers so you double it first (so would go to S20) then subtract 1 (to 19) then i caps to 10

Siphen wrote:
Can anyone give me a page number for that? It seems a little dumb that an Enfeebled Wraithknight (strength 9) would still be strength 9 when smashing.

It wouldn't, an Enfeeble'd Wraithknight would be Strength 19, capped at 10, when making Smash attacks.

Deathleaper'd

But where does it say that capping stats at 10 happens last?
Couldn't you read it as: the Wraithknight (strength 10) smashes to double its strength (still capped at 10) and then subtracts 1 for Strength 9?

Edit: In fact, the Smash special rule says that it doubles the model's strength to a maximum of 10 (pg 42), so I'm not sure if that strength 19 that you're talking about is correct.

Siphen wrote:
But where does it say that capping stats at 10 happens last?
Couldn't you read it as: the Wraithknight (strength 10) smashes to double its strength (still capped at 10) and then subtracts 1 for Strength 9?

Edit: In fact, the Smash special rule says that it doubles the model's strength to a maximum of 10 (pg 42), so I'm not sure if that strength 19 that you're talking about is correct.

Everything caps at 10 because that's the caps for stats in general. The reason the cap applies afterwards is because all modifiers are done simultaneously (because that's how math works)

Chrysis wrote:You can't cap the result until after you know what it is, which means after applying all the multipliers.

CrownAxe wrote:Not how it works. You don't cap it at 10 until you finished all modifiers so you double it first (so would go to S20) then subtract 1 (to 19) then i caps to 10

PrinceRaven wrote:It wouldn't, an Enfeeble'd Wraithknight would be Strength 19, capped at 10, when making Smash attacks.

Except that there is a cap built into the Smash rule, it's not just a flat x2 like with a power fist.

"A Smash Attack also doubles
the model's Strength (to a maximum
of 10) for the purposes of that Attack."

So throw in order of operations for multiple modifiers and for a S6 model it'd be:
6 x 2 (capped at 10 from the smash rule) = 10
10 - 1 = 9

So unless the MC has another source of bonus strength from their weapon/furious charge/whatever they'd max out at S9 Smashes if they're enfeebled. I'm not saying it makes sense, but according to the rules that's how it looks like it works to me.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
So unless the MC has another source of bonus strength from their weapon/furious charge/whatever they'd max out at S9 Smashes if they're enfeebled. I'm not saying it makes sense, but according to the rules that's how it looks like it works to me.

The cap in the Smash rule is just reminding of the already existing cap - it's not an additional cap.

Here is the problem with your logic;

The two effects are separate formulas calculated at separate times;

Enfeeble (Cast in your opponents shooting phase) will drop your strength by 1 on your profile for ALL purposes, not attacks are made at -1 strength. Therefore your profile is entirely changed until the enfeeble wears off.

Smash (Used in any combat phase) doubles the strength on your profile for the purpose of that attack.

Therefore (MATH);

Opponents movement phase;
S*=S-1

Any combat phase
Sm= S*x2

Not true at all. You should probably read page 2.

S = base strength
S* = strength under enfeeble
Sm = Smash strength

danny1995 wrote:
S = base strength
S* = strength under enfeeble
Sm = Smash strength

I figured that out. You're still failing to read page 2. I suggest you do so.

Page two refers to wargear only for multiple modifiers.


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and the effects of multiple rules the model has

danny1995 wrote:
Page two refers to wargear only for multiple modifiers.
and the effects of multiple rules the model has

So either there's literally no way for multiple psychic powers to interact (How do you resolve Hammerhand and Enfeeble on the same unit?) or you apply Multiple Modifiers whenever there's ... multiple modifiers.
One of those is reasonable, one leads to things breaking dramatically. I'll let you figure out which is which.

My point is the power takes effect when it is cast.

danny1995 wrote:
My point is the power takes effect when it is cast.

Absolutely.

Now, you're also asserting that Multiple Modifiers doesn't apply.
Please, using your interpretation, resolve both Hammerhand and Enfeeble on the same unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
The cap in the Smash rule is just reminding of the already existing cap - it's not an additional cap.

How do you make that determination? To me it certainly looks like an additional cap. I'd agree if it said something along the lines of "keeping in mind that a model's S cannot exceed 10", but the way it's written it definitely looks like something specific to the Smash rule.

Can you remind me of the effects of Hammer hand, I do not generally play against grey knights, and when I do I never end up in CC

+1 STR for the assault phase.


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Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The cap in the Smash rule is just reminding of the already existing cap - it's not an additional cap.

How do you make that determination? To me it certainly looks like an additional cap. I'd agree if it said something along the lines of "keeping in mind that a model's S cannot exceed 10", but the way it's written it definitely looks like something specific to the Smash rule.

Because we know it's not specific to the Smash rule. If it capped at 8, for example, that'd be specific to Smash. If it capped at 12, it'd be specific to Smash.
It caps at the same number the general rule does. Which means it's the same as the general rule.

It's cast in the assault phase, if you are affected by enfeeble the grey knight would be S3 before the power is cast. Then when the power is activated theircurrent profile strength of 3 is boosted to 4 until the end of the assault phase. My point that I'm covering is that unlike weapons that give bonuses, or furious charge, etc. the effects of the power are relevant outside of combat and therefore calculated before combat.