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I have a 2500pt game coming up with my ogres against dwarfs and was wondering which lore to go with on the slaughtermaster?

I was thinking heavens to hopefully mess up his shooting a bit and help with combat and saves with harmonic convergance but am open to opinions!

Maw, Death, Beasts, or Heavens?

Death. The fact that you can instakill his war machines AND gain dice back to snipe out his important characters is an advantage,

Plus against Ogres, dwarves hate soulblight,

Purple Sun is a game ender against dwarfs. One good purple sun is all it takes to cripple his army.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Purple Sun is a game ender against dwarfs. One good purple sun is all it takes to cripple his army.

But don't rely on it to win the game for you. Even a basic Dwarf army at this points level will have two dispel scrolls, and one or both might even have the 4+ roll removes the spell from the game effect.

Dwarves dispel very well so don't play into that by trying to attack his units with magic. I would go beasts or maw to buff your troops and win in cc

I would advise you pick a lore that YOU enjoying playing with and working for you, tailoring lists IMO is just as bad as cheating, because your taking exclusively the tools to beat your enemy, its not very talented. So look at the pros and cons of each lore, play them out and pick one you like

UNLESS your both building lists exclusively for each other, then death... because you can kill his characters dead and with Sun you can melt face

I would go defensive with magic. so Gutmagic and either Heavens or Beasts.

Gutmagic still has the Maw if you MUST have an offensive nuke to take advantage of low Initiative. Although I advise against any Initiative based spell ever because we also have crap for Initiative.

therealsuperman wrote:
I would advise you pick a lore that YOU enjoying playing with and working for you, tailoring lists IMO is just as bad as cheating, because your taking exclusively the tools to beat your enemy, its not very talented. So look at the pros and cons of each lore, play them out and pick one you like.

Umm, what? This is a very strange and contradictory post...

I would 2nd Death. Your going to be getting close to try and get into combat, so the short range which is the shortcoming of the Lore isnt as huge issue. Plus the fact that death-snipes can generate more power dice can be crucial against Dwarves.

alex87 wrote:

therealsuperman wrote:
I would advise you pick a lore that YOU enjoying playing with and working for you, tailoring lists IMO is just as bad as cheating, because your taking exclusively the tools to beat your enemy, its not very talented. So look at the pros and cons of each lore, play them out and pick one you like.

Umm, what? This is a very strange and contradictory post...

I would 2nd Death. Your going to be getting close to try and get into combat, so the short range which is the shortcoming of the Lore isnt as huge issue. Plus the fact that death-snipes can generate more power dice can be crucial against Dwarves.

Don't forget the sun!

I hate Death Magic on ogres. I don't know why people insist on trying it.

We have low leadership values to use for Spirit leech, Aspect of the Dreadknight is pointless, Caress and Bjuna are ok, Doom are Soulblight is good, and Purple Sun is downright suicidal.

Only 2 actual good spells and only 2 adequate spells, plus 3 useless/you must be insane to try spells. All amounts to a Lore that's not worth rolling on.

If spells weren't random, I'd definitely consider it.

Heavens on a Lv4, Beasts or Maw on a Lv2.

I just really like the Lore of Heavens on most armies, but it could help vs. Dwarf shooting and could force his lines to adjust if you drop a comet in the back field (or in the middle of the board early one vs. a vanguard-ing dwarf list)

Beasts and Maw help with buffing your units for combat/ weathering the storm of bullets.

As stated, Dorfs are really good at dispelling. If you want to be sneaky, you might just buy a bunch of extra troops (ironblasters, mournfang, whatever) and hope he took runepriests and dispels. So he would basically be wasting points and you'd have extra combat fatness.

Compared to other races you got really the most expensive, suckiest, casters. You're not going to get any extra PD or spiffy bonuses or tricks like HE/DE/Liz/VC/etc. And you're going up against by far the best anti-magic race.

What do you think the likelihood is of you getting off some game-changing spells is? And what will you have paid for those spells in points? And would those points have been better in more troops?

Honestly Ogres can take casters at a lesser disadvantage than other races as Slaughter Masters and Butchers are still perfectly capable of fighting (or at least surviving) in combat.

Ogres also have T4 and 3W's per model, which means some of the miscasts aren't nearly as deadly when compared to other armies.

Both points can lead to you arming your caster up with defensive gear and then just 6-dicing "must have" spells each round.

Dwarfs are good at dispelling, for sure, but they can't stop an IF spell.

...Dwarfs have access to multiple Dispel Scrolls. Two seems to be the most common.
They also might have a +4 to Dispel, if their BSB or their Hammerers takes a banner with that Rune (which means no 4+ Ward on the BSB and no Stubborn Bubble) Otherwise, they have a constant +2.

...really not scary. They are, more or less, on-par with other races in terms of anti-magic. Or worse off.

If they have an anvil they get +1DD.

If they take balance they can remove a PD 50% of the time.

They can dispel and remove the spell 50% of the time, which a few other races have, but not many.

And the banner.

And they can channel on what is essentially a cheap combat-y hero. Adding AP and MR I say makes Runepriests extremely undercosted--a razor standard + MR1 costs 60...and they cost 60, and also happen to be characters.

So no, they are better than other races at anti-magic and if they really want to shut down Ogre magic they can.

When I last played dwarfs using the old army book they shut down my magic for most of the game, so should I go magic light in this one (with maybe just one or two lvl 2 wizards) and go for wrecking face instead with a tyrant?

If so what should the level 2's take? Maw on one obviously, but death, beasts or heavens on the other?

Dwarfs are not as good anti-magic wise as they were, but they're still good at it
So you either bring big magic to overhwlem their defences, or none to make them waste points
But I don't like list tailoring, so I usually take my regular all-comers list

 DukeRustfield wrote:
If they have an anvil they get +1DD.

And the Anvil is garbage.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
If they take balance they can remove a PD 50% of the time.

Fair point.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
They can dispel and remove the spell 50% of the time, which a few other races have, but not many.

True. And they have to pay for it, and obey the Rule of Three. So, while a Dwarf general could go Runepriest + Spellbreaking X2 + Furnace, Runepriest + Spellbreaking X2, Runepriest + Spellbreaking + Furnace, Runepriest + Spellbreaking...no one does. 380pts for 4 Dispel Scrolls and two 4+'s to eat a spell isn't a bad deal. But they need to spend points on actually doing stuff too.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
And the banner.

Like I've said. You want to deny your BSB any kind of protection? Be my guest. Other than that, you can take Hammerers and give it to them. Which is not a bad choice, by any means. But those're your two options. And one of them sucks.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
And they can channel on what is essentially a cheap combat-y hero. Adding AP and MR I say makes Runepriests extremely undercosted--a razor standard + MR1 costs 60...and they cost 60, and also happen to be characters.

Why does everyone say, "oh, well, Dwarfs are great at anti-magic, just look at Runepriests, they give AP!" I'm not saying these guys aren't good. They are. But MR1 is laughable, and a channel attempt even more so. They're nice little bonuses on a character who hands out AP and carries a Dispel Scroll. That's it.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
So no, they are better than other races at anti-magic and if they really want to shut down Ogre magic they can.

Heh. "So, no" Like it's so definitive. Like it's obvious. Classic.
Dwarfs have access to 3 spells that can't join units and have no bonus to cast for a higher cost than most players pay for a lvl4. So, really, they have no magic. Which should mean that they are definitely and indisputably better at shutting down magic. But a lvl4 + Dispel Scroll is looking pretty close to what Dwarf players bring, and, you know, does all that other stuff.

I'm not saying they're bad at it. Just that, really, their magic defense is not all that fearsome or complete.

Anvil is fine. It's just most people feel the points are better elsewhere. You get +2W, Unbreakable (which is one of the huge reasons people don't like single/small units because they can lose so easy because of ranks), ward, +2 attacks. The spells can be cast by throwing all your dice at them with no real concern. +1 armor is pretty darn spiffy. the 2D6 S4 is also spiffy. The ITP isn't. And of course the +1DD is very nice. The cost of the anvil is high is a concern, but you can stick the thing just about anywhere. The augment is battlefield-wide. And the range on the attack is 24" and it's a DD. It's not like a sucky war machine you can just lol over and go kill, they've got pretty solid stats and defense, even without runic items.

MR is MR. In this case it is basically free. So no, it's not laughable, because it's free. Paying 15pts for it would be laughable. But you're getting a combat hero who is at LEAST worth 24pts from his base stats. (2 Longbeards and he is +1 armor). He's a character, obviously. Can AP. Can channel. Gives the entire unit MR. They are stupidly cheap. In every book if you try and buy abilities from characters they cost more than the sum of the abilities themselves, because it's from your Hero/Lord pool. I.e., 20 wounds from Lords costs a LOT more than 20 wounds from Core. Same with attacks. Or just about anything else. Runepriests are about the only thing I know that turn that model on its head.

It is obvious. They don't need "bonus to cast" they are casting bound spells that cost 3, 4 and 5 and can't fail to reach power and don't do jack if they miscast (well, they don't blow up). They need 3.5 PD on average to cast those spells. 1 of which they get for free. So 2.5 dice on 2D6. Basically, the only way to not cast them is to have them be dispelled. So yes, they have magic. And I really like 2/3rds of their spells.

It's just 290+shield isn't worth the pwnerage they can get out of those points buying combat troops. It's not in any way a poor reflection on the anvil, it just shows the other stuff is really good. 3 vanguarding Gyrocopters beat the snot out of of a Runedork on an anvil.

Runesmiths are indeed awesome, but I'd still run the Slaughtermaster, geared to fight, with lore of death.
I like, Sword of Might, Armor of Destiny, Power Stone, Rock Eye.

If you don't get a spell off all game, odds are he spend a lot more points stopping you from casting than you spent casting. And you still have a S5 T5 W5 A4 guy with 4+ armor and 4+ ward.

The big advantage of death magic is making more dice.
You get a little lucky once and the phase can snowball in your favor.
Just don't take the signature spell. People seem to freak about the risk of a misfire on purple sun, and then seem to forget that your wizard does get a look out against it (if enough rank and file are around).

I wouldn't bank on purple sun, but soul blight, doom and darkness, and both direct damage spells are very brutal. Soul Blight Especially; that's one me more games than any other spell.

-Matt

Death is useful for singling out Characters. The BSB is going to have a meaty runic banner that you are going to want to destroy. With that advantage and the Purple Sun doing well because of Dwarf's low I2; I think that Death is one of the better choices.

I agree a fighty Slaughtermaster is a good choice, but I think the fairly standard Glittering Scales and Fencers Blades (with a ward of some kind) would be better. Dwarf Characters have high WS, and so do many of the elite units, I would rather be hit less and take fewer saves, than have a higher save and risk failing them.