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The question at hand is stated in the title. For example could I have a unit of warp spiders deep strike on the board and then cast guide on them, or is this disallowed because the warp spiders arrived and that counts as movement?

I’m aware of the FAQ on the matter, but that regards reserve rolls and psychic powers, not actual unit placement after reserve rolls and psychic powers.

Now if you are able to do this by the simultaneous occurence of events refrenced in the FAQ, can you go back and forth between casting and reserve rolls? For example could a Farseer cast Scrier's Gaze
to manipulate reserve rolls and then cast a blessing on a unit that comes on from reserve, or does he have to finish casting blessings since he started them?

ianj253 wrote:
The question at hand is stated in the title. For example could I have a unit of warp spiders deep strike on the board and then cast guide on them, or is this disallowed because the warp spiders arrived and that counts as movement?

I’m aware of the FAQ on the matter, but that regards reserve rolls and psychic powers, not actual unit placement after reserve rolls and psychic powers.

The FAQ equates arriving from Reserve with Reserve rolls, so they're simultaneous. Yes, you can deploy a unit and then bless it.

Now if you are able to do this by the simultaneous occurence of events refrenced in the FAQ, can you go back and forth between casting and reserve rolls? For example could a Farseer cast Scrier's Gaze
to manipulate reserve rolls and then cast a blessing on a unit that comes on from reserve, or does he have to finish casting blessings since he started them?

He could cast a blessing, then you roll for all reserves/arrive them all, then he could cast another blessing.
There's no requirement for a Psyker to cast everything at once or simultaneously. As long as you don't Reserve roll, bless, Reserve roll you'll be fine.

rigeld2 wrote:

ianj253 wrote:
The question at hand is stated in the title. For example could I have a unit of warp spiders deep strike on the board and then cast guide on them, or is this disallowed because the warp spiders arrived and that counts as movement?

I’m aware of the FAQ on the matter, but that regards reserve rolls and psychic powers, not actual unit placement after reserve rolls and psychic powers.

The FAQ equates arriving from Reserve with Reserve rolls, so they're simultaneous. Yes, you can deploy a unit and then bless it.

Its not quite that simple.

The FAQ does not directly equate arriving with reserve rolls. The FAQ does equate reserve rolls and Bless/Maled and Outflank rolls.
Arriving from Outflank is defined as being immediately after Outflank rolls. So it would seem that arriving via Outflank is 'simultaneous' with reserve rolls. And since arriving from regular or DS reserves can happen before or after arriving by Outflank.... there is an indirect 'proof' that arriving from any reserves is 'simultaneous' with casting.

Unlike Outflank, there is nothing stating that arriving from reserves happens at the same time as rolling for reserves.

coredump wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

ianj253 wrote:
The question at hand is stated in the title. For example could I have a unit of warp spiders deep strike on the board and then cast guide on them, or is this disallowed because the warp spiders arrived and that counts as movement?

I’m aware of the FAQ on the matter, but that regards reserve rolls and psychic powers, not actual unit placement after reserve rolls and psychic powers.

The FAQ equates arriving from Reserve with Reserve rolls, so they're simultaneous. Yes, you can deploy a unit and then bless it.

Its not quite that simple.

The FAQ does not directly equate arriving with reserve rolls. The FAQ does equate reserve rolls and Bless/Maled and Outflank rolls.
Arriving from Outflank is defined as being immediately after Outflank rolls. So it would seem that arriving via Outflank is 'simultaneous' with reserve rolls. And since arriving from regular or DS reserves can happen before or after arriving by Outflank.... there is an indirect 'proof' that arriving from any reserves is 'simultaneous' with casting.

Unlike Outflank, there is nothing stating that arriving from reserves happens at the same time as rolling for reserves.

We know that Reserve rolls and Outflank rolls are simultaneous.
We know that when an Outflankers arrives from Reserves he makes an Outflank roll.
We know that when Reserve units arrive the player "picks any one and deploys it". There's no rules difference in timing between an Outflanking unit and a normal unit.
Therefore we know that Outflanking units and normal Reserves arrive at the same time.
Since we know that Outflank rolls are simultaneous with Reserve rolls, and we know that there's no rules difference in timing between Outflanking units and normal Reserve units, we know that normal Reserve units arrive simultaneously with Outflank and Reserve rolls.

You move on from the board edge, do you not?

I believe blessings occur before movement, do they not?

Manifesting blessings and maledictions occurs at the start of the turn.
Arriving from reserves occurs at the start of the turn.
Per the FAQ, the turn player decides the order of simultaneous events.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Manifesting blessings and maledictions occurs at the start of the turn.
Arriving from reserves occurs at the start of the turn.
Per the FAQ, the turn player decides the order of simultaneous events.

I think I misunderstood the argument strain here. The Caster is on the field and the person being cast on is arriving from reserves. Which the rules would allow. Okay

rigeld2 wrote:

coredump wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

ianj253 wrote:
The question at hand is stated in the title. For example could I have a unit of warp spiders deep strike on the board and then cast guide on them, or is this disallowed because the warp spiders arrived and that counts as movement?

I’m aware of the FAQ on the matter, but that regards reserve rolls and psychic powers, not actual unit placement after reserve rolls and psychic powers.

The FAQ equates arriving from Reserve with Reserve rolls, so they're simultaneous. Yes, you can deploy a unit and then bless it.

Its not quite that simple.

The FAQ does not directly equate arriving with reserve rolls. The FAQ does equate reserve rolls and Bless/Maled and Outflank rolls.
Arriving from Outflank is defined as being immediately after Outflank rolls. So it would seem that arriving via Outflank is 'simultaneous' with reserve rolls. And since arriving from regular or DS reserves can happen before or after arriving by Outflank.... there is an indirect 'proof' that arriving from any reserves is 'simultaneous' with casting.

Unlike Outflank, there is nothing stating that arriving from reserves happens at the same time as rolling for reserves.

We know that Reserve rolls and Outflank rolls are simultaneous.
We know that when an Outflankers arrives from Reserves he makes an Outflank roll.
We know that when Reserve units arrive the player "picks any one and deploys it". There's no rules difference in timing between an Outflanking unit and a normal unit.
Therefore we know that Outflanking units and normal Reserves arrive at the same time.
Since we know that Outflank rolls are simultaneous with Reserve rolls, and we know that there's no rules difference in timing between Outflanking units and normal Reserve units, we know that normal Reserve units arrive simultaneously with Outflank and Reserve rolls.

Yep. Thats just what I wrote above. My only point was that the answer was "not as simple" as the FAQ saying reserve rolls and arriving were simultaneous. It is the result you get to, after a several step process of deduction.

Rigeld, while there is no requirement for a psyker to cast his blessings in one go I do think it is bad sportsmanship to use something like tigerius to bless one unit and then see if the other psykers in the army can use their buffs before returning to tigerius as a second chance to buff a unit.

Just my opinion.

Back on topic...
This is why we need those FAQs back up.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Rigeld, while there is no requirement for a psyker to cast his blessings in one go I do think it is bad sportsmanship to use something like tigerius to bless one unit and then see if the other psykers in the army can use their buffs before returning to tigerius as a second chance to buff a unit.

Why would that be bad sportsmanship? If you have a lot of Presecience in your army (for example) it makes sense to spread it around as much as possible.

If I get Catalyst on both Flyrants and fail on the first one, is it bad sportsmanship to cast it from the second one (so both get FNP) and then go back to the first Flyrant to cast Horror?

Tactical thinking = bad sportsmanship, apparently.

I would love to be able to cast blessings on units that arrive from reserve (and that's how I play it), but I don't think the rules allow it.

There are two things that can happen at the start of the turn. Blessings/maledictions and reserve rolls. The moving of reserves happen after both of those things. The reason why you would choose cast blessings first (and why it was FAQed) is so you can cast that divination power that works on reserve rolls.

If you chose to do reserve rolls first, you would make all your reserve roles, then cast blessings, then move your reserve units on (with the outflanking units being resolved one at a time)

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I would love to be able to cast blessings on units that arrive from reserve (and that's how I play it), but I don't think the rules allow it.

There are two things that can happen at the start of the turn. Blessings/maledictions and reserve rolls. The moving of reserves happen after both of those things. The reason why you would choose cast blessings first (and why it was FAQed) is so you can cast that divination power that works on reserve rolls.

If you chose to do reserve rolls first, you would make all your reserve roles, then cast blessings, then move your reserve units on (with the outflanking units being resolved one at a time)

This is incorrect. The FAQ makes arriving from Reserves (moving on the board) simultaneous with Reserve rolls and casting blessings. I've addressed it in this thread.

Raven, stuff it.

Rigeld my view is that every other aspect of interaction with a unit is all in one go. Movement, shooting, charging and then CC all done at once.
It isn't a rule but atm I cant think of a single thing you can come back to a unit after moving on.

rigeld2 wrote:
We know that Reserve rolls and Outflank rolls are simultaneous.

This is false.

You make the outflank roll when the outflanking unit arrives from reserve.
To know if the unit arrives from reserve, you have to make it's reserve roll first.
The two can't be simultaneous (you need one before another).

This is also why reserve rolls are not simultaneous with the movement of the unit arriving from reserve (who are not simultaneous with each other either).

They can be simultaneous from the rule's point of view.
We know this is true because the rules tell us that certain rules can kick off at the same time and an FAQ has stated that these rolls are simultaneous.

The FaQ only stated that Reserve Rolls and Blessings&co occurs at the same time.

They never stated that the movement of units arriving from reserve is simultaneous with all that. In fact, the rulebook is pretty clear : units arriving from reserve move one by one, not simultaneously with each other.

So you can't prove that reserve rolls and moves from unit arriving from reserve are simultaneous.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
They never stated that the movement of units arriving from reserve is simultaneous with all that. In fact, the rulebook is pretty clear : units arriving from reserve move one by one, not simultaneously with each other.

And yet by the rules they are considered to occur simultaneously, or do you have proof that you have multiple beginnings of the turn/Movement phase? Just because they're done concurrently does not mean that the rules can't consider them to all happen simultaneously.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
The FaQ only stated that Reserve Rolls and Blessings&co occurs at the same time.

And that Outflank rolls are done at this time as well.
When are Outflank rolls made?

p40 wrote:When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves

So when an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, an Outflank roll is made. We know, per the FAQ, that Outflank rolls and Reserve Rolls are simultaneous.
As I said before, there's no rules distinction between when an Outflanking unit arrives and when a normal unit arrives from Reserves.
So we know that there's no distinction between when a normal unit arrives from Reserve and when an Outflank roll is made.
So it's all simultaneous.

And yet by the rules they are considered to occur simultaneously, or do you have proof that you have multiple beginnings of the turn/Movement phase?

That's not what i was trying to say. There is only one beginning of the turn/movement phase.
But for me, movement of units coming from reserve are not made at the start of the turn.

rigeld2 wrote:
We know, per the FAQ, that Outflank rolls and Reserve Rolls are simultaneous.

My bad, I thought that the FaQ only stated the fact that Reserve Rolls and Blessings are simultaneous, but Outflank Rolls are mentioned in here as well, you're right.

So we know that there's no distinction between when a normal unit arrives from Reserve and when an Outflank roll is made.

In the end, this FaQ solve some problem (the timing of the blessings) and create a lot more by making outflank rolls simultaneous with reserve rolls. Because if outflank rolls are simultaneous with reserve rolls and the movement of units coming from reserves, then i can choose the order in which i want to do all of that (as per FaQ and p9 of rulebook).

So technically I can decide to do the movement of all my units in reserve even before rolling reserve for them. Nice !

You still need to have permission to move the units onto the board by *SHOCKER* rolling for reserves before you move them on or roll for outflank.
The FAQ merely allows you to cast a blessing to effect those rolls or cast blessings on those units after they have arrived.


Basically, that the rules kick off "simultaneously" doesn't negate requirements for those rules and you still have to pick their order.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Raven, stuff it.

Rigeld my view is that every other aspect of interaction with a unit is all in one go. Movement, shooting, charging and then CC all done at once.
It isn't a rule but atm I cant think of a single thing you can come back to a unit after moving on.

That isn't a very nice thing to say .

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Basically, that the rules kick off "simultaneously" doesn't negate requirements for those rules and you still have to pick their order.

This is what i find stupid about this rule/FaQ : if reserve rolls, outflank rolls and movement of units arriving from reserve have to happen in a given order, why tell that they're simultaneous ?

 RabbitMaster wrote:

And yet by the rules they are considered to occur simultaneously, or do you have proof that you have multiple beginnings of the turn/Movement phase?

That's not what i was trying to say. There is only one beginning of the turn/movement phase.
But for me, movement of units coming from reserve are not made at the start of the turn.

Except the movement that reserves use to move onto the board is done at the start of the Movement phase, as it is done before anything else covered in the rules for the Movement phase. Your interpretation would only allow you to bring in a single unit from reserve per turn as once the first unit arrives its no longer the start of the turn.

Ghaz wrote:Your interpretation would only allow you to bring in a single unit from reserve per turn as once the first unit arrives its no longer the start of the turn.

No my interpretation was :

Start of the turn/movement phase (so in whatever order you prefer) :
- roll for reserves
- roll for outflank (a couple minute ago i would have put that right before moving units from reserves)
- cast blessings and similar "start of the turn/movement phase" stuff.

Movement phase :
- first move units arriving from reserves (one by one not simultaneously).
- then move the rest of your army.

Again your interpretation fails because all of your units arriving from reserve must do so at the start of the turn/Movement phase. Your interpretation would only allow one unit to arrive from reserve because once you move that one unit, it would no longer be the start of the turn/Movement phase.

Please read the rules for the Movement phase on pages 10 and 11 of the rulebook. These rules cover voluntary movement. If it occurs before voluntary movement then it is by defintion done at the start of the turn/Movement phase.

 Ghaz wrote:
Please read the rules for the Movement phase on pages 10 and 11 of the rulebook. These rules cover voluntary movement. If it occurs before voluntary movement then it is by defintion done at the start of the turn/Movement phase.

Rules of the movement phase covers any movement made in the game, voluntary or not. Some of these rules are bended by others, but most of them always applies whatever the movement is (run, charge, jetpack move, etc...).

Plus we do have non voluntary moves that happen in the middle of the movement phase. For example, if my unit is out of cohesion, I have to move it (so it's not 100% voluntary) but it doesn't occur at the start of the movement phase. Same goes for a unit fleeing. In this regard, coming from reserve is no different as the only obligation is to move fully onto the table (like every other movement).

Ghaz wrote:Again your interpretation fails because all of your units arriving from reserve must do so at the start of the turn/Movement phase. Your interpretation would only allow one unit to arrive from reserve because once you move that one unit, it would no longer be the start of the turn/Movement phase.

No. In my interpretation only Reserve rolls are made at the start of the turn.
The movement of units arriving from reserve are done non-simultaneously (as the rulebook doesn't say it happens at the start of the turn and goes one by one) before moving the rest of the army.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
No. In my interpretation only Reserve rolls are made at the start of the turn.

Which, just to clarify - you realize you were incorrect on, right?

So what's the point of this tangent?

No. In my interpretation only Reserve rolls are made at the start of the turn.
The movement of units arriving from reserve are done non-simultaneously (as the rulebook doesn't say it happens at the start of the turn and goes one by one) before moving the rest of the army.

Again, where do the rules for the Movement phase cover the movement of reserves onto the board? They don't. The rules for the Movement phase only covers voluntary movement and anything that occurs before the rules presented on pages 10 and 11 by defintion occurs at the start of the turn/Movement phase.

So is the movement of reserves onto the board a part of the rules for the Movement phase or not? If not, then your entire argument falls apart.

rigeld2 wrote:
Which, just to clarify - you realize you were incorrect on, right?

Because of a *probably* involuntary side effect of the FaQ, yes. I already said you were right several message ago (even if I have to admit I'm not entirely convinced, i don't have any RAW argument right now to justify myself).

Let's face it, it's only because the FaQ indirectly says that outflank and reserve rolls are done at the same time (which is not even the primary purpose of this particular FaQ) that we can assess that the term "when the unit arrive from reserve" maybe mean "at the start of the turn where the unit arrive from reserve".
Seems pretty weak argument for me (but again, right now I don't have anything RAW to counter it).

So what's the point of this tangent?

Ghaz said that, whatever the FaQ, my interpretation was flawed, which i didn't agreed and (try to) explain why.

Ghaz wrote:Again, where do the rules for the Movement phase cover the movement of reserves onto the board? They don't.

You use some rules described in pages 10-11 to do the movement of reserves onto the board (coherency, orientation, movement distance for infantry, etc...).
Granted, rules of the movement phase alone don't cover *all* of the movement from reserves. You need those additional rules of the page 124 plus whatever your unit type is / special rules in you codex.

Ghaz wrote:The rules for the Movement phase only covers voluntary movement

As said before, it is not true (fleeing units, coherency problems, etc... are good counter examples).

However, as this leads nowhere for the actual way of playing 40k (I'm just defending a non-RAW point of view afterall) I'll try not to get this going anymore =) Let's all pray for the return of new FaQs instead (this is really something we need !)