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The rules say "A Transcendent C’tan must take two Ascendant Powers (weapons) from the following list", followed by 5 Powers.

Can you take 2 of the same power, or do you have to take 2 unique powers?

Yes,

I'll post the reasoning from the previous thread for my side.

If I purchase 2 Waves of withering, I have paid the cost for two powers. That meets the requirement, for purchasing two powers. I have paid the cost for 2x waves of withering, which is two powers. It is not two separate powers, but that is not stipulated.

Can you show me where in the rules it states it must be two separate powers? You can't, because it doesn't say that. It simply says two powers, and by purchasing two waves of withering, I have paid for two powers. I therefore, meet the requirement for the rule.

I purchase two waves of withering. I have therefore purchased 2 powers, and met the requirements of the rule. It is that simple. Is wave of withering on the list of powers? I purchase it twice, and therefore have purchased 2 powers from the list.

<deleted - removing my opinion>

Yes, it's the same as the Tau Codex rules for Drones and Wargear.

Yes. The C'tans' rules do not contain the word 'different' in it's rules-text. See the entry for the 'Tesseract Vault' to see the difference (lol).

 Sasori wrote:
Yes,

I'll post the reasoning from the previous thread for my side.

If I purchase 2 Waves of withering, I have paid the cost for two powers. That meets the requirement, for purchasing two powers. I have paid the cost for 2x waves of withering, which is two powers. It is not two separate powers, but that is not stipulated.

Can you show me where in the rules it states it must be two separate powers? You can't, because it doesn't say that. It simply says two powers, and by purchasing two waves of withering, I have paid for two powers. I therefore, meet the requirement for the rule.

I purchase two waves of withering. I have therefore purchased 2 powers, and met the requirements of the rule. It is that simple. Is wave of withering on the list of powers? I purchase it twice, and therefore have purchased 2 powers from the list.

No, you have purchased one power twice, you have not purchased two powers. Subtle but important difference.

That's just semantics. If I have two apples, I have two pieces of fruit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

No, you have purchased one power twice, you have not purchased two powers. Subtle but important difference.

If a crisis suit buys two plasma guns, how many weapons does it have?

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, you have purchased one power twice, you have not purchased two powers. Subtle but important difference.

I must purchase a power. I purchase Wave of Withering.
I must purchase a power. I purchase Wave of Withering.

How many powers have I purchased?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, you have purchased one power twice, you have not purchased two powers. Subtle but important difference.

I must purchase a power. I purchase Wave of Withering.
I must purchase a power. I purchase Wave of Withering.

How many powers have I purchased?

You have purchased one power twice.

You have not purchased two powers.

I have. I've paid points for two powers.
I can use 2 powers in my shooting phase.

There are two, distinct, powers.

DeathReaper:
Two powers≠ two different powers.

It's important to note that while two powers is not the same as two different powers, power is also not the same as wargear.

So all of these discussions about how many guns a Crisis Suit can take aren't really relevant. Crisis Suits don't take powers. They take pieces of wargear.

If I were a TO and was asked to make a decision, I would require two different powers. My gut tells me that's how the selection is intended to work. On straight RaW, I be happy to play against someone who selected two of the same.

No not really it specifically doesn't say different powers, just read the entry for the normal C'Tan. RAW you can totally purchase the same power , twice.

I've never seen an argument where someone literally argued that 1 + 1 does not equal 2.

Math is fun. 1 + 1 can equal 3 for large values of 1.

And if it helps to think of it this way (because this is the argument for having to pick two different powers)...

Pick two diseases from the list to be infected with...
1. The Kroot Flu ...5 pts
2. Altoids Fever ...5pts
3. Sharpie Madnes ...5pts
4. PaperClip Contusions ...5pts

You can't have Double Kroot Flu, so you'd have to pick two DIFFERENT diseases to satisfy the requirement to choose two diseases. If you are considering powers to be this way, you'd need two DIFFERENT powers.

I don't see anything in the codex that says they are unique and don't stack though. I would still allow two of the same even though I strongly suspect RaI is different.

Which is a nice argument in general. but doesn't address why they chose to actually write the two (otherwise identical selection processes) differently if they mean exactly the same thing.

Compare the C'tan and the Vault. Notice the differences. Not sure it can get any clearer...

Not to mention there is plenty of precedent for abilities which can be only taken once stating so explicitly, and none at all for those abilities having that by implication.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
DeathReaper:
Two powers≠ two different powers.

Two powers≠ One power taken twice.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
DeathReaper:
Two powers≠ two different powers.

Two powers≠ One power taken twice.

Its still two powers, even its the same power, its still the same power two times. Requires two separate uses.

If this was the case, then warhounds couldnt use two Turbolaser arms.

 Neorealist wrote:
Compare the C'tan and the Vault. Notice the differences. Not sure it can get any clearer....

I originally was 100% convinced I was right about having to take 2 separate powers, but the argument above changed my mind on the original thread.

The Vault says 2 DIFFERENT powers, while the C'Tan says 2 powers (not different powers). It's pretty clear now to me what the designers intended.

Of course, all of this could be avoided if they just added a couple words to the C'Tan entry...

 jasper76 wrote:
The Vault says 2 DIFFERENT powers, while the C'Tan says 2 powers (not different powers). It's pretty clear now to me what the designers intended.

Given GW's track record its hard to actually say what they intended, but what the rule actually says is quite clear in that you can take the same power twice.

I'm with DeathReaper on this one. It is NOT clear what was intended, and very likely a stupid oversight by GW's terrible rules writing squad these days by not including the word different. The tesseract vault is powered by the C'tan, so if it has to pick different 'powers' in that, then logically it makes sense that it would have 2 different ones if not imprisoned.

By the same argument, a Warhound should be choosing 2 different weapons, not a single weapon twice (and Reavers for that matter).

RAW, it's still ambiguous. RAI, and for fair'n'balance purposes with all the big stuff becoming more regularly used, I feel that's a better way to look at it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add that a flying Daemon circus tabled my Reaver army in the Exterminatus at Adepticon, puppet mastering it twice to kill of nearly every other model I had (Rune Priest performed statistically perfect, nullifying 2 of 4 puppet masters however).

So be careful what you wish for; a C'tan could be Be'lakor's new favorite puppet!

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I'm with DeathReaper on this one. It is NOT clear what was intended, and very likely a stupid oversight by GW's terrible rules writing squad these days by not including the word different. The tesseract vault is powered by the C'tan, so if it has to pick different 'powers' in that, then logically it makes sense that it would have 2 different ones if not imprisoned.

By the same argument, a Warhound should be choosing 2 different weapons, not a single weapon twice (and Reavers for that matter).

RAW, it's still ambiguous. RAI, and for fair'n'balance purposes with all the big stuff becoming more regularly used, I feel that's a better way to look at it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add that a flying Daemon circus tabled my Reaver army in the Exterminatus at Adepticon, puppet mastering it twice to kill of nearly every other model I had (Rune Priest performed statistically perfect, nullifying 2 of 4 puppet masters however).

So be careful what you wish for; a C'tan could be Be'lakor's new favorite puppet!

Arankyer from the Necron codex has similar cheese, against vehicles as opposed to creatures. I had played the game with a Trancendent CTan with 2 different powers, and the question came up when a gent suggested taking 2 Hellstorms.