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I've been thinking about the CCS. There are a number of tasty options...

BS4 lascannon
Mortar (debatable I know but means can hide from line of sight)
up to 4 BS4 Melta Guns
up to 4 BS4 Plasma Guns
Master of Ordnance (MoO) (now cheaper and better)
Psycher with nice default 24" range attack
no upgrades to keep it cheap

Now personally I always take a magic flag...

But what is best use of other slots?

I'm thinking MoO and mortar for the long range indirect synergy in one squad.

And Psycher plus 3 Plasma Guns for 24" synergy in the other.

Thoughts?

Note... generally I'm very excited about this codex!

I'm not sure myself what role the CCS will play in this codex. Basically, they can do leadership/orders as well as before, but are less useful as Chimera gunners thanks to the limit on Fire Points.

The best non-chimera setups with the last codex were Standard and Lascannon or Standard and Mortar, points dependant. Gives you another long-range shot and orders. The Standard is probably still worth it, simply because I believe you can use the re-roll for Ld and saving the Commissar from having a 1/3 chance of blamming someone important. The Lascannon never hurt, either, so that setup is still solid. Not sure the Mortar is that useful, but on the other hand, 5 points for another blast isn't bad.

The MotF is interesting, although less reliable he's more versatile, and probably more useful. Choosing whether you buff your own reserves or debuff your opponent's is good, as it means he can help you get an alpha-strike or allow you to counter-attack your opponent, depending on what reserves they're bringing.

25 points for Telepathy is quite nice, even with low Ld and potential weakness at only T3 and 1 wound. Basically, if you can get Psychic Shriek off, the chances are you'll get those points back pretty easily. Plasma would synergise nicely, like you say.

I think carapace, now it's cheaper, is probably essential for a foot CCS, doubling their survivability against small arms.

Well, I heard that orders don't need LoS like they used to, which is a pretty huge buff. I think the ccs will make quite a resilient warlord choice, as it can be hidden away. With that in mind, I was thinking a pure support unit. Vox, banner, medic, OoF. Or perhaps drop the medic and grab a lascannon, which can snipe away while the rest hides.

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not sure myself what role the CCS will play in this codex. Basically, they can do leadership/orders as well as before, but are less useful as Chimera gunners thanks to the limit on Fire Points.

Orders took a hit though as you can no longer issue them if you’re in a vehicle, building, or even gone to ground.

Don't Chimeras still have the Command Vehicle rule that allows orders from them?

 Paradigm wrote:
Don't Chimeras still have the Command Vehicle rule that allows orders from them?

Missed that one. Nothing like combing over book and reading one thing just to have anther rule override it.

If you got line of sight, and do Fire on my target on itself, a CCS with a MoO basically got a scattering ignore cover str9 AP2 large blast to use. I used it today to great effect (granted got lucky with the scatter dices, always rolling 6 or less with BS4 for a whooping 2 inch scatter...) and it clean a line of troops damn well.

Orders got substantially better, and IG has great warlord traits, and the CCS is probably both the Warlord and the best source of orders. Those things come free, and are the most important, so I think the best use of points favors survivability, and thankfully that got cheaper.

My core CCS (for now), Carapace on CC, Medic, Vox, Carapace Armor = 93 points for the squad.

I'd probably put them in a Chimera also, just to make Slay the Warlord a little harder to pull off, and to make Orders better. If you plan on being stationary, a MoO and a LC take up both your fire port slots. If you want to rove, a pair of plasma guns is still pretty damn good.

For foot squads, you could also do worse than a bunch of sniper rifles. They're cheap enough to be expendable, but they can do something, and they're way better than lasguns.

CCSs didn't change at all. They just had points adjustments on stuff and had their orders change slightly.

However you were running your CCSs before is how you're going to run CCSs now.

I will probably hide them in a chimera, giving orders to the surrounding infantry. Give them four meltaguns so they're useful in a pinch, I can't see me taking anything more than that - the special characters are too expensive and the Master Of The Fleet is too unreliable.

I honestly don't think they changed too much. Orders got better but that's about it, they're still cheap BS4 special weapon slots, and they're still not very durable. Now that a)I can take a take commander and b)I will nearly always have a mob of infantry to stick a Lord Commissar in, I don't know how often I'll bring CCS. Frankly I think it'll come down to how useful I find orders to be.

I can forsee a nice combination of that wargear that allows accurate deepstrike, plus deepstriking scions and an order. 10 scions tripple-tapping @ half range (with fully accurate deep-strike remember) will kill 6.6 marines in a single round of shooting.

Unfortunately though, SWS and HWTs still have no durability whatsoever. It's irrelevent to me that I can get twin-linked lascannons with Tank Hunter USR if they're still T3 5+ Ld 7.

Well, first of all, you need to look at their basic role; the single most important thing about them is that they can issue orders.
That means that you need to figure out what unit they will be buffing.

They can give orders to themselves, which makes things simpler, but requires them to stand in the open where they can be shot and they have to choose between taking enough firepower to make the order worthwhile and taking enough bodies to absorb incoming fire. There might be some way to pile a combination of characters and buffs into the unit that ends up as a deathstar, but I haven't figured one out yet. I suspect that a medic, Nork Dedogg, several priests and some allied Inquisitors might be a start though.

The other alternative is having them buff another squad. The problem is that all the really good candidates for receiving orders are rather delicate. Ideally you want to take several different squads to buff and then move your CCS between them as they either die, get bypassed or run out of suitable targets. Maybe a couple of veteran squads and a large bunch of ratlings. Anyway, the important bit there is that you need to be able to move, which means you are going in a Chimera.

There's not much point in taking too many weapons with you in the chimera. It seems a shame to waste the BS 4 though, so maybe a couple of plasma guns would be OK. Or a Grenade Launcher and Boltgun to save points. Carapace and a medic will help if the Chimera gets blown up, but I think it's better to concentrate on protecting the Chimera first, so Camo Netting would be my first priority. Relic plating, fire barrels, extra armour and a dozer blade are also good for keeping alive and mobile. Vox casters might be a worthwhile investment if you have expensive veteran squads you absolutely need to get the order to.

So, my build would probably be two plasma guns, carapace for the veterans, a chimera, camo nets and a dozer blade. 173 points.

Orders got a major buff, in that you no longer need LoS to the target from the officer. This allows you to hide them away and still be useful. I would go for a cheap buffing squad, with banner and vox. You could possibly add a heavy weapon, like a lascannon, to this in order to put out some fire power. The lascannon could peak out from behind cover and take shots, although it could easily get sniped out. A mortar is safer but has poor damage. Add to this an OoF or MoO if you like. The important thing is that you can keep your warlord (if he is your warlord) in terrain and out of sight, surrounded by blobs doing the firing.

Most CCS's that were good before are still just as good if not better.

The 4x special weapon CCS in chimera now cannot use 2 of it's special weapons and cannot fully utilize the lasgun array rule so it is weakened. However it's ability to pass out massively powerful orders like ignore cover to plasma and tank hunter on plasma, has made them a supplement unit for when you jump your vets out to hammer something that came too close. Even putting tank hunter or split fire on melta going after something important can be huge to ensure that kill. The nice thing being that you can leave the 2 vets naked and save pts yet still get nearly the same firepower using orders to supplement them. You can also take a primaris psyker to supplement your chimera and units for about the same cost as 3 plasma guns or/and an astropath for about a plasmagun.

There is an entirely new type of CCS that is now extremely powerful. The naked perhaps with vox CCS. 2 orders a turn is powerful enough that taking CCS's just to throw them around is well worth it. Perhaps a MoO to drop some templates as he is so cheap. I would probably try to avoid a HWT in my CCS as they are going to be big targets and HWTs actually reduce you survivability of the unit.

Another interesting option is plasma CCS to drop out of vendetta's. With tank hunters on plasma you can make relatively safe >12" away DSs, use the tank hunter order, and destroy most vehicles. AV12 will average 3 HP striped and an explodes (ala Imperial Knight rear and side armour with a little help from your vendetta or a vets squad). That is pretty brutal and somewhat makes up for the lower capacity of the vendetta when this is what can come out (though honestly scion command squads can do the same).

Before, when I ran one, I ran a bare naked CCS with a magic flag. Now, if I run one, it'll probably be a mortar and a magic flag, since the unit has no reason to ever have Line of Sight to any opposing model.

Things to note, that the moo blast is ap 3 not 2 and the weapon profile says it fires separately from other barrage weapons if I remember right.

I would also get the standard and master of the fleet. Medic if he is my warlord the rest depends on points left over.

Magic flag? What does that mean?

 portugus wrote:
the weapon profile says it fires separately from other barrage weapons if I remember right.

Finally! My mortar wont scatter to hell with MoO!

Silo, "magic flag" refers to the regimental standard upgrade.

In 14 years, I've never left home without mine.

i run two CCS one with lascannon and std/vo combo with the MoO they sit at the back with the squads running defense. and the second runs heavy flamer, std/vox and medic with the astropath and OotF. they stay in the middle of my mass of guardsmen.

Old load out was simple 4 melta or 3 melta and a flag.

New load out is complicated and I don't see any right or wrong answers.

CCS orders are very beefy now which is going to make them a greater fire magnet. The problem with arming them with 4 special weapons is that draws even more attention towards them and makes them an even greater fire magnet. The problem with not giving them 4 special weapons is that they can always jump out of a Chimera and use orders to unload 4 melta/8 plasma shots with.

Guard leadership is going to tend to be around 9 or fearless now thanks to priests and commissars. The 1/3 chance your opponent choosing the execution doesn't apply if the priest and commissar are in the same fearless unit, but the ld 9 bubble still extends. I'm not sure if the flag is still needed, but if you take it ld 9 with a reroll is only a 1/36 chance of failure.

The big winner is the officer of the fleet. Cheaper, can choose who's reserves to effect, and best of all can choose to do nothing. The big flaw with the previous advisers was they could not choose to forfeit their bonuses when sometimes you want your reserves delayed or your opponent's to come in. Now it's completely optional.

That astropath is a pretty hateful little upgrade. I think he would work well in both a plasma unit and a unit with very little short ranged firepower. The astropath will deter some opponents from getting within range of psychic shriek which is probably a good thing. If you don't like units getting close to your CCS the astropath is a good option.

With the drop in firepoints for the chimera, I am planning on running 3 plasma guns, a medic and carapace for the lot. I won't be able to shoot all the guns, but it dose give me an extra dude to step up and fire AND adds some extra survivability to the squad. Commander will probably get a boltgun.

At 1500 pts~, I'd maybe use them as a MoO Artillery spotter squad in a firepower orientated list. If I'm making extensive use of reserves an OoTF is an auto-include.

If I'm running a sizable group of infantry, or a group of infantry in support of heavier elements, I may just take a CCS with Nork Deddog as a meaty counter assault unit/tarpit. I'd reccomend Vox Casters always with this scenario regardless of your opinion on using a CCS in such a role, and if you're not making extensive use of moral buffing IC's a Regimental Standard.

In a mechanised list, they are good still in a Chimera with special weapon spam because of the MCV rule and the awesome exclusive orders. However, I strongly recommend you don't make this choice your Warlord, and you take a backup CCS/Yarrick to avoid losing that STW point.

I'm stumped by the Nork Deddog thing.
He's T5, but dragged down to T3 by the squad. Is there a way around that, or is be just a challenger, and LoS soaker?

Seems that the restriction to use MoO barrage separately from the unit's barrage is there to avoid exploiting that multiple barrage goodness where it won't scatter 3d6.

I think a Chimera is really excellent for these guys. It effectively increases order range by a lot, first by measuring 12" from the hull instead of a dude, but also by letting you move >6" and still issue the orders.

Just to throw it out there, this is the first CCS I'm going to try when I get a chance. It's main job is support of infantry, but can provide some fighting power with plasma guns from the back of the Chimera

-Carapace armor on vets (cheap)
-Medic
-Vox Operator
-2 Plasma Gunners
-Chimera with Camo Netting

This is 198 points, provides a couple of plasma guns, and has a little durability with 4+/5+FNP (5++/5+FNP on officer). It will stay in the Chimera until it's destroyed. Any advisor could reasonably be added.

Since the doctrines for vets are so much cheaper, could you feasible do a mixed bag?

CCS in chimeras, as Bio mentioned, with some vets in Chimeras but others on foot bringing up the rear? You could give them the better cover save or better armor in general, they could hide behind the tanks/buildings... obviously they'd be vulnerable and squishy but I'd assume the other big hitters would be priority targets.

Would free up some points as well with the new chimera bump.

I'd imagine the CCS could give orders for them to run faster/run shoot to keep up?

Yeah, If I were doing all vets, some would be on foot with Camo for home objective holding. The rest would be Carapace in Chimeras. I don't think they need to keep up, because you'll need some guys hanging back.