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IG- 1975

HQ:
Pask in Punisher, 2 LR vanquishers with Lascannons- 500pts

Troops:
Infantry Platoon- 310pts
[PCS-30 pts]
[2x Infantry squad- 100 pts]
[2x Special Wep Squad w/ 3 demo charges- 180pts]

Infantry Platoon- 280pts
[PCS- 30pts]
[2x Infantry squad- 100pts]
[50 conscripts- 150pts]


Elites:

Fast Attack:
Vendetta- 170pts
Vendetta- 170pts

Heavy Support:
3x Basilisks- 375pts
Manticore- 170pts


Here is the plan: Have the basilisks and manticore sit back with all the troops on some objective lobbing pie plate across the board while remaining out of LOS. Pile the 2 special weapon teams in the two vendettas, using the vendettas to drop them off near some 2+ save baddies and drop 3 AP2 pie plates for each special weapons team as well as using the 6TL lascannons on the vendettas to go flyer hunting. Have Pask and his tanks roll up, having the vanquishers shoot their 72" armorbane shots at heavy AV, and use pask's 20 rending shots to decimate whatever I dont like.

So what do you all think?

Seems like a big waste of points on troops just to sit on an objective. Being predictable often hurts, and it means your opponent controls the game (from my experience using blob objective holders at least.) maybe drop the troops down to a vet squad in a bastion, or a 30 man platoon with an invul save of some kind, just so you don't spend too much on 70 guys (who can only hold 3 objectives between eah other, and it's unlikely the infantry squads will survive)

MaxZ wrote:
Seems like a big waste of points on troops just to sit on an objective. Being predictable often hurts, and it means your opponent controls the game (from my experience using blob objective holders at least.) maybe drop the troops down to a vet squad in a bastion, or a 30 man platoon with an invul save of some kind, just so you don't spend too much on 70 guys (who can only hold 3 objectives between eah other, and it's unlikely the infantry squads will survive)

Umm, I dont get what you are saying. I am spending 410pts on 7 scoring units (100 bodies). And having one infantry platoon allows me to get 2x Vendetta transported units who get assault, large blast, str 8 ap2 weapons. Thats 6 str 8 ap2 large blasts from two vendetta. and 2 scoring units (albiet suicide units, I could keep them in the vendettas till endgame, drop them on an objective and use each one's 3 blasts to clear an objective).

I personally think Pask is wasted in a Punisher as Wyverns kill far more infantry for 35 less points. I'd give him the Vanquisher and his mates Executioners who get rerolls due to PE.

I like the Demos in the Vendettas good synergy there. I'd consider chucking a priest in the conscripts you have the free points and they are fearless and you can chuck them into combat if you need and they'll be there a while as they'll have to kill every last one.

HS is all wrong in my oppinion. Balisks are not near as good as Wyverns even against 3+ saves. Whilst Deathstrikes are the go to these days over Manticores. You could take 2 Deathstrikes and 3 Wyverns and save points instead.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I personally think Pask is wasted in a Punisher as Wyverns kill far more infantry for 35 less points. I'd give him the Vanquisher and his mates Executioners who get rerolls due to PE.

I like the Demos in the Vendettas good synergy there. I'd consider chucking a priest in the conscripts you have the free points and they are fearless and you can chuck them into combat if you need and they'll be there a while as they'll have to kill every last one.

HS is all wrong in my oppinion. Balisks are not near as good as Wyverns even against 3+ saves. Whilst Deathstrikes are the go to these days over Manticores. You could take 2 Deathstrikes and 3 Wyverns and save points instead.

The Paskisher is for MC and AV as well, its 20 str5 RENDING with rerolls for armor pen,

The Wyverns dont fit into the guard dex at all. No guard player needs str 4 blasts that ingore cover if they are only AP6. The HS is perfect for a sit in the back playstyle. 3 Str9 ap3 large blasts a turn will take care of anything but AP2, and the manticore has an average of 2 str10 ap4 large blasts a turn. So thats 5 large blasts that can take out MEQ and above. The ap2 will be taken care of by the demos. As for deathstrike vs manticore, the manticore is better for constant pie plates. If I wanted a 10" blast, I would put my Baneblade in. The deathstrike isnt competitive at all, even with 3.

Edit: the manticore shoots an average of 2 str10 pieplates a turn. It will average 8 str10 pieplates in 4 turns, being able to aim at 4 targets. The deathstrike gets a single 10" pieplate that cannot fire turn 1. I just don't think its competitive, The only thing it has going for it is AP1, but you can only target one thing. You wont get to fire it until turn 3 on average, and by then, you could have 6 str10 pieplates on 3 targets.

I did mention Pasks utility his tank hunt vs AV10-12 he is very strong in the Punisher.

Why do you think Ap matters for Wyverns? They kill any unit no matter the save. They are twin linked as well as shred. Ignores cover just helps against all those 2+ cover units. They are the best new thing in the codex. For 195 points you're almost guaranteed to kill a unit a turn due to all the rerolls. Where as the Basilisks struggle against 2+ saves and can't even be relied upon against 3+. You missing that first shot wastes 375 points of firepower. With all the rerolls you have about a 90% chance of scattering less than 2" with the first Wyvern shot.

Deathstrikes are very competitive now. They always were if they got to shoot but they too often died before they got that chance. Now they fire on a 3+ on turn 2 they are certainly going to be part of many competitive lists. They are really quite likely to fire turn 2. It is a 10" blast so should be able to hit multiple units and ignores cover. It means Wave Serpents can't afford to fire their shields which is a nice tactical advantage. The baneblade isn't Ap1 nor S10 nor does it ignore cover and is about 3 times the price.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I did mention Pasks utility his tank hunt vs AV10-12 he is very strong in the Punisher.

Why do you think Ap matters for Wyverns? They kill any unit no matter the save. They are twin linked as well as shred. Ignores cover just helps against all those 2+ cover units. They are the best new thing in the codex. For 195 points you're almost guaranteed to kill a unit a turn due to all the rerolls. Where as the Basilisks struggle against 2+ saves and can't even be relied upon against 3+. You missing that first shot wastes 375 points of firepower. With all the rerolls you have about a 90% chance of scattering less than 2" with the first Wyvern shot.

Deathstrikes are very competitive now. They always were if they got to shoot but they too often died before they got that chance. Now they fire on a 3+ on turn 2 they are certainly going to be part of many competitive lists. They are really quite likely to fire turn 2. It is a 10" blast so should be able to hit multiple units and ignores cover. It means Wave Serpents can't afford to fire their shields which is a nice tactical advantage. The baneblade isn't Ap1 nor S10 nor does it ignore cover and is about 3 times the price.

The wyvern put out 4 small blasts at str 4 ap6. Small blasts will hit 2 models. str4 ap6 is worse than bolters. The range on the wyvens is autocannon and lascannon range. How on earth anyone can think they "kill any unit no matter the save" is... astounding. What imperial guard army doesnt have more str3 than they know what to do with? Str 4 isnt much better. For 195pts, you get 12 small blasts, lets say with some scatter its 20 hits. Its str4 ap6. They get their armor save. Hell, at least boltguns are ap5. Seriously, show me the guard player that needs more str1-4 shots.

Also, how does the basilisk fit the category of "cant even be relied upon against 3+"? It can be relied upon just as much as every single other weapon if not more in 40k to hit em, then wounds on a 2+ and they get no save.

I can use 2 basilisks and then 1 basilisk in a diff HS slot, my bad for not showing that. and no, it doesnt waste 375 points of firepower if it misses, its a calculated risk, you do miss in 40k.

The wyvern will put out 20 str4 ap6 hits at most. But.... why? I mean it isnt even that good. Lets compare:

1. 3 wyvern- 195pts. 20 str 4 ap6 (reroll to wound). In lascannon/ autocannon range with AV 10 sides.
2. 10 Tactical Marines, drop pod- 175pts. It puts out 20 str4 ap5 hits. In infantry range. Scoring.

Niether are very survivable. The wyverns reroll to wound, but the tac marines are scoring, ap5, and can deploy anywhere, as well as costing 20 less. Again, why do you need str4 shots in a guard list? You just don't.
Seriously, you don't see people singing the praises of allying in tac marines for their "amazing firepower:

As for the deathstrike, my list doesnt need it, at all. The demo charges take 2+ saves, the basilisks take 3+ saves, the lascannons and LR's can take AV and MC's, the vendettas take flyers. And the infantry hold objectives while firing str3 like its going out of style. 2 str10 ap4 blasts a turn allows me to cover a lot of ground and target more units. Sure a str10 ap1 10" blast is nice, it will take out one really mean unit, but I have things for mean infantry and mean AV/MC's.

I also accidentally said baneblade, I meant shadowsword. Its a strD 5" blast and costs a little more than 2 deathstrikes. I'd make room for that before putting a deathstrike in.

Oh, and thank you for going back and forth on this with me. Im really not sure myself, haha, just trying to take a contrary position. However I personally cannot see the wyverns fitting in my list. I also do really good against SM lists, throwing around 3 pie plates that wound on 2+ and give no saves is just mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yes my Colour is Black but not for the reasons stated mainly just because it's slimming..

Just read that. One of the more funny sigs I've seen!

I'd say you average 3 hits with a twinlinked small blast, dependant on placing it can be quite possible to get 4-5 hits from a blast remember any direct hit (55% of the later templates) can be placed anywhere to maximise hits.

10 tactical marines in a DP do not get 20 boltgun hits and they don't ignore cover and are able to be intercepted and are then in assault and rapid fire range of the opponent. Not remotely comparable.

So against 3+ saves in 5+ cover 3 balisks only hit the unit about half the time. So say they average 5 hits per template (generous with no rerolls). 15 hits 12.5 wounds 8.333 dead marines. 3 Wyverns averaging 3 hits per template (given twin linked nature not generous at all). 36 hits 27 wounds 9 dead. So in an accurate barrage you should kill more MEQs with the Wyverns than the basilisk. Add in the twin linked meaning that the chances of an accurate barrage from Wyverns is practically double. On the same scenario you'd kill 4.5 TEQs and 27 Orks, 32 Nids basically any unit. You're hung up on S4 not on the actual damage out put. 48" isn't amazing range but it is good enough given how much 36" range stuff there is out there.

The not reliable I was referring to was the fact that you'll scatter over 3" 50% of the time as you basically never get to use your Bs for scatter due to 36" minimum range. So half the time your ranging shot is likely to entirely miss.

Yes I agree Shadowsword is better than Deathstrike. Destroyer weapons are better than everything always.

Cheers about the sig

God, our book looks so solid. I wish the mail were faster so i could start concocting broken nonsense.

If you want to bring earth shaker cannons, then I would recommend FW heavy artillery carriages. 75 points base with 4 wounds on the gun and the crew all being toughness seven is alot better than a three hp tank for 125. Definitely consider them if FW flies in your play group.

Alright, Im ganna think this through, I think you may be right...


Basilisk- 125pts
BS 3 F12 S10 R10, HP3. HB, Search, smoke launchers. (identical)
36"-240" str9 ap3 Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast.

Wyvern- 65pts
BS 3 F12 S10 R10, HP3. HB, Search, smoke launchers. (identical)
(2x)48" str4 ap6 Twin Linked, heavy 2, barrage, blast, ignores cover, shred.


Two wyverns cost 130pts, so we will compare two Wyvs with one Bas:
Bas- Anywhere- Large Blast str9 ap3, (two rolls for pens)
Wyv- 48"- 8 str4 ap6 blasts that reroll scatters, rerolls wounds, and ignores cover.
1. Unless the unit is in area terrain, the shot comes from the center of the blast marker, most often the Bas will "ignore cover"
2. The large blast has an area of ~20" and the blast has an area of ~7. So the large blast has 3x the area. However, we will say it will only hit 2x as much as a single small blast, since it does not reroll scatter.
3. We will say a small blast that rerolls scatter will hit 3 space marines.

Bas: 6 space marines hit. 5 wounded. No armor save. No cover (unless in area terrain). 5 dead MEQ.
Wyv: 24 space marines hit. 18 wounded. 6 failed saves. 6 dead MEQ
note: as armor saves get worse and there are more models, the wyverns will beat the basilisks by even more.
note: you get two 12,10,10 boxes and 2 slots for the price of one 12,10,10 box and one slot wyv vs bas.

Choosing between the Wyvern and Basilisk:
Wyvern- You will be within 48",
Basilisk- You will not be within 48" and you are shooting at 3+.

SO! My plan was to have all of my artillery at the very back corner of the board, behind a building, then protect the only opening with conscripts. From here just lob shots anywhere with the basilisks and manticore. I don't think the wyverns will be usefull using this tactic.
ALSO! I think I am going to spend 30pts and get prescience on my 3 basilisks, which should net me many more MEQs than the equivalent points in wyverns.

Any thoughts?

It depends on deployment though doesn't it. Yes a primaris Psyker is fantastic. You deploy in a corner I deploy opposite you you're unlikely to be more than 48" away unless it's hammer and anvil. As you've proven even against marines out in the open the Wyverns are better. Let alone ones in area terrain or with innate cover or with different saves. You mentioned that worse saves makes it better for the Wyvern but better saves also work better for the Wyverns. A 2+ makes the Wyvern over 3 times as effective.

Against the power house builds 2+ cover or armour or 4+ invuns are a key part of the deathstar. The Wyverns will massively out perform the Basilisks in this. Also volume of wounds makes them more effective at barrage sniping stuff like Grimoire Heralds and support suits. Competitively Wyverns are the best HS choice in the book.