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So I was looking at the GW page and I'm probably jumping to conclusions but I noticed the vermin lord was 'out of stock' one day. I somewhat thought it might mean something but it's just one model and the page has a new version. Then I noticed today that 4 different things are out of stock including the vermin lord, ratling gun, plague monks and plague censer bearers. I find it all a little odd since the vermin lord isn't exactly a high demand model for skaven currently. The fact all of these seem to be out of stock all at once could be suggesting something. Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions but you never know. All 4 of the models/units are old as well.

Is this a possibility? The skaven are about due for a new army book and update within a year I figure. What do you guys think?

I have heard no rumors myself but it seems puzzling.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer?Nao=0&Nu=product.repositoryId&N=102351+4294966454&qty=12&sorting=phl

I don't think there's a new army book coming soon. They do extremely well and are extremely expensive at the same time thus it's a good situation for GW. They do need a re-balance, i.e. a nerf in some areas, but I don't see this happening too soon.

Ok warpfire throwers are also not being shown on the entire army listing and that was an old metal model as well.

This feels like a definite possibility. That's 5 models/units I'm counting.

Edit: Ok I see some armies seem to have out of stock units or models but some of them are new and they aren't on the level of skaven. There's always a possibility but I'm not so sure now.

Unlikely. Skaven will probably be the final book to be re-done. Armies such as WEs, Brets and probably Beastmen are all older and in greater need of updating.

I think it's more to do with metal models becoming a thing of the past. Most are already out of production.

alex87 wrote:
Unlikely. Skaven will probably be the final book to be re-done. Armies such as WEs, Brets and probably Beastmen are all older and in greater need of updating.

I think it's more to do with metal models becoming a thing of the past. Most are already out of production.

Skaven have an older book than beastmen. Currently only brets and wood elves are older. Trust me I saw the beastmen army book released after the skaven army book for myself. I know the skaven book is older because that's about when I started skaven.

Plague monks are a completely plastic set though and they're out of stock.

If this release did happen the only thing I would want with updated models beyond what's shown is some new nightrunners and gutter runners. The models are old and it shows. I won't even buy nightrunners because of how ugly they are.

Skaven: Nov 2009
Beastmen: Feb 2010

Sounds about right. But given how popular Skaven are currently and how accessible they are as part of the IoB I don't think GW will be moving too quickly to update them. And besides, the Skaven book has probably aged a bit better than the Beastmen book.

"Aged better" is quite an understatement given that power level wise, we're talking of polar opposites here

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I won't even buy nightrunners because of how ugly they are.

Really, not because they are possibly one of the worst units in the book?

 Sigvatr wrote:
"Aged better" is quite an understatement given that power level wise, we're talking of polar opposites here

I still don't see how people think skaven are so top tier OP. As I've said before that was then and this is now. Most stories of skaven being OP was a couple years ago with no games being played since.

I'm not sure if you guys have that same experience of not facing skaven in years but trust me they're not as stupid strong as you think (except in low points games).

alex87 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I won't even buy nightrunners because of how ugly they are.

Really, not because they are possibly one of the worst units in the book?

I have considered throwing a warp grinder on a decent sized unit of 30 or so nightrunners and possibly popping them up somewhere on the board if the enemy is coming to me. They come in at the start of a player turn and can charge immediately. It might have devastating results if used to flank an enemy or get to more vulnerable units (like a general and BSB command unit which tends to be composed of crappy small units) if an enemy isn't wary of it.

It's random and not a great strategy but hey it might do some damage. Also it would give the skaven more chance to move around their opponent better for flanking purposes. Also though nightrunners aren't good in many ways they have shooting, move faster and have better leadership than most skaven units (which isn't saying much but it is saying something).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
"Aged better" is quite an understatement given that power level wise, we're talking of polar opposites here

I still don't see how people think skaven are so top tier OP. As I've said before that was then and this is now. Most stories of skaven being OP was a couple years ago with no games being played since.

Aaaaaactually, stop right there.

Skaven are one of the few armies out there who can actually deal with WoC fairly well. Because they can shut down throgg and friends horrifically well. I've seen a skaven army remove that unit in a round. Just because they negated so many wounds.


That makes them quite valuable in the meta.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
"Aged better" is quite an understatement given that power level wise, we're talking of polar opposites here

I still don't see how people think skaven are so top tier OP. As I've said before that was then and this is now. Most stories of skaven being OP was a couple years ago with no games being played since.

Aaaaaactually, stop right there.

Skaven are one of the few armies out there who can actually deal with WoC fairly well. Because they can shut down throgg and friends horrifically well. I've seen a skaven army remove that unit in a round. Just because they negated so many wounds.


That makes them quite valuable in the meta.

Well that must've been a hell of a list. Was that player particularly good or was the army itself pulling the weight? I do know some players that play a variety of armies including one that plays skaven and they just all around destroy their opponents. I think that skaven player used night runners in the list he used (which somebody just said sucked) and I think he also lost to demigryphs and knights with lots of cavalry and cannons for empire (it was a tournament).

------------

Anyway I may have been wrong and it may actually have been that metals are being re-done. That said plague monks are still 'out of stock' and they're old plastic models.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I have considered throwing a warp grinder on a decent sized unit of 30 or so nightrunners and possibly popping them up somewhere on the board if the enemy is coming to me. They come in at the start of a player turn and can charge immediately. It might have devastating results if used to flank an enemy or get to more vulnerable units (like a general and BSB command unit which tends to be composed of crappy small units) if an enemy isn't wary of it.

It's random and not a great strategy but hey it might do some damage. Also it would give the skaven more chance to move around their opponent better for flanking purposes. Also though nightrunners aren't good in many ways they have shooting, move faster and have better leadership than most skaven units (which isn't saying much but it is saying something).

You have complained again and again in this forum about how unreliable skaven war machines and weapons teams are to the point where they aren't viable... and now you want to commit points to a 30 strong unit that could be completely lost on account of a mishap from the warp grinder. Thats a fairly significant change in philosophy you've had there.

Night runner shooting is absolutely terrible and really doesn't weigh favourably when considering their worth. The fact that they have Ld 6 instead of 5 is a moot point as well. All skaven infantry should be Ld 10 anyway thanks to Strength in Numbers/IP. It's a cool little gimmick though.

alex87 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I have considered throwing a warp grinder on a decent sized unit of 30 or so nightrunners and possibly popping them up somewhere on the board if the enemy is coming to me. They come in at the start of a player turn and can charge immediately. It might have devastating results if used to flank an enemy or get to more vulnerable units (like a general and BSB command unit which tends to be composed of crappy small units) if an enemy isn't wary of it.

It's random and not a great strategy but hey it might do some damage. Also it would give the skaven more chance to move around their opponent better for flanking purposes. Also though nightrunners aren't good in many ways they have shooting, move faster and have better leadership than most skaven units (which isn't saying much but it is saying something).

You have complained again and again in this forum about how unreliable skaven war machines and weapons teams are to the point where they aren't viable... and now you want to commit points to a 30 strong unit that could be completely lost on account of a mishap from the warp grinder. Thats a fairly significant change in philosophy you've had there.

Night runner shooting is absolutely terrible and really doesn't weigh favourably when considering their worth. The fact that they have Ld 6 instead of 5 is a moot point as well. All skaven infantry should be Ld 10 anyway thanks to Strength in Numbers/IP. It's a cool little gimmick though.

To be fair I get to complain about how random skaven are after I played a game with my storm banner lasting 7 player turns and preventing 3 warpfire throwers and 2 warp lightning cannons from firing during just one turn at 3-4 player turns after I set it off. Oh and the doomwheel I had that could fire that same turn had a mishap and lost d6 to its movement. Not only that but during the next turn my warpfire thrower misfired and blew itself up, the 2nd misfired and couldn't shoot and the final did shoot. I also had one of my warp lightning cannons misfire about 3 times in that game and the 2nd misfired probably at least once or was just unable to shoot. The storm banner that lasted 7 player turns hurt me infinitely more than it did my opponent. Also during my very first turn in that game my level 4 grey seer miscasted and was turned into a level 1 wizard effectively neutering the point of him without the enemy doing anything. It's also small but the abomination failed to make its random move into a unit during the game. Keep all of this in perspective when I say skaven are random.

This game was probably my unluckiest game and it happened just 3 weeks ago. Not only that but for the 2nd time in maybe 2-3 weeks somebody broke a bunch of my models by leaning on part of the clanrats tray and making 30 of them do a backflip onto the ground. After the fact it was kind of funny imagining them doing the backflip but I was pissed during all this. Doesn't help when I'm playing a game and people comment how I'm getting destroyed and telling my opponent they're just gonna wipe me out.

Thankfully the game I last had in the shop only one thing misfired and most things performed far better than normal. Once again skaven are random and you should prepare for that. Some things are very random and you should probably exclude some of those things from your list.

Some skaven things are viable and some can really be a pain. Sometimes the storm banner is helpful like vs. dwarfs and empire and really shooty armies but against pretty much everybody else I won't dare use it again for fear of repeat of that game. Against those same shooty armies even with slave walls advancing to protect my weapons teams they still might get shot esp. if the opponent is on high ground and can see them. Warpfire throwers do best when they are static and most weapons teams are short enough ranged that any sort of archers would just destroy them with one volley if they can even barely see them.

To be fair it's probably a bad idea to take the storm banner when you have warp lightning cannons but I needed to protect them somehow and most of my shooting normally wouldn't have made it into firing position until turn 3 anyway. A storm banner should never last 7 turns. It's is very, very unlikely to occur.

----------------------

Anyway to get back to the warp-grinder bit yeah I was contemplating the idea which is why I thought about lessening the unit down to 30 models and possibly not trying it because of how random it can be. It was more of a for fun "let's see how it does" type thing and even then I probably wouldn't use it except in a higher points game so that I wouldn't be spending so much on such a random unit (I was hoping since it only uses one artillery die that the amount of bad luck would be lessened as compared to the ones that use many during a game). The fact they have no musician though it makes sense (they're a ninja unit) and no banner (same reason probably) is kind of unfortunate if I'm trying to win with combat resolution where a few extra points might help.

No doubt nightrunner's shooting is bad. I'm more unimpressed by the fact that if an enemy moved quickly out of view and you had to swift reform you couldn't do it because you have no musician. If you reform you can't shoot at all so a swift reform might help.

The fact they have higher leadership and that small vanguard equivalent movement in the beginning means that they could probably stay away from the main force without worrying as much about leadership issues. I still wouldn't take nightrunners in any other situation but for the warp grinder.

---------------------

Maybe I am just a bad player. It's a fairly possible thing. That said the most reliable thing skaven seem to have is the fact they can horde. I'm sure it can work and work well but it's just rather boring. I'm trying to put the funds together for such an army but they don't completely exist and it'll probably take a long time to buy that much rank-and-file. I got into skaven for the weapons teams and war machines though oddly enough I want more reliability which never seems to mesh well with the skaven. I like weapons teams a lot and to an extent the warp lightning cannon which is not always easy to land the blast where you wish.

So in short maybe I have the wrong mindset for skaven and/or should horde more. Problem is I don't have the money to.

---------------------

Anyway this got way, way off topic.

The skaven models are probably being replaced by finecast or something. The only plastic models out of stock are plague monks and they're old but there's probably some normal reason for that. This probably won't pan out but if it does i'll be happy. Metal models being out of circulation seems to make more sense from what's been shown. You can't blame me for wishing and hoping can you?

Yes, quite off-topic. Another post that is nearly a mile long. I'm not touching that.

Ok then long story short I had one really unlucky game about 3 weeks ago that included like 10 mishaps, a miscast in turn one that turned my level 4 into a level 1 and my storm banner shut out my entire shooting phase for an entire turn during the most needed turn. The storm banner lasted 7 turns. If it wasn't enough somebody accidentally flipped 30 of my clanrats onto the floor.

The warp grinder is random but you only roll for it once. That's way, way less chance for a mishap. If you only take one in a game that's 1 in 6 games of a mishap and 1/3 of a chance they just outright die. Not great but in a big game it's not as big of a deal. Besides I was unsure if I wanted to do this because of how random it was. In a new army book night runners might become viable. You never know. That was part of the point to me wanting new night runner models.

I could probably just be a bad player and I just need to horde more most likely. Sadly I like to experiment with units and I love weapons teams like skryre in general.

This all seems to be moot as it's most likely metal models being replaced.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Ok then long story short I had one really unlucky game about 3 weeks ago that included like 10 mishaps, a miscast in turn one that turned my level 4 into a level 1 and my storm banner shut out my entire shooting phase for an entire turn during the most needed turn. The storm banner lasted 7 turns.

An unlucky game. We all have them once and a while. Anecdotal evidence like this is pointless though.

If it wasn't enough somebody accidentally flipped 30 of my clanrats onto the floor.

I've had this happen to a tray of my High Elf Spearmen, it absolutely sucked. So I can sympathise with you despite how irrelevant this is to everything we are discussing.

In a new army book night runners might become viable. You never know. That was part of the point to me wanting new night runner models.

There has been little-no rumours regarding a new Skaven book. So for now night runners are going to continue to suck.

I could probably just be a bad player and I just need to horde more most likely.

Just to clarify... you don't actually deploy your infantry in Horde formations do you?

This all seems to be moot as it's most likely metal models being replaced.

...Yes

I don't generally throw my guys in horde formation with slave units as they generally die really quickly and you can have more ranks more easily for longer if you go deep instead of wide. I also do this with clanrats but in some cases like with stormvermin I actually do go wide for more attacks. Generally I try to run the stormvermin in about 50 models per unit or I am trying to.

There is a point to going deep instead of wide with ranks. The longer you can stay in combat the better in the case of being able to possibly flank the enemy with a harder hitting unit. This has worked for me in my very last game to great effect. So really the slaves are just there to get enemies stuck in combat till the hard hitters can come in and save the day while the large ranks of the slaves and such get rid of steadfast on the enemy unit.

As for what I meant it's that I should have more guys on the field rather than not fielding or fielding guys in horde formation. For instance maybe I should field twice as many skaven as I do.

Ahh okay good... Considering that they are classed as a 'Horde' army its somewhat ironic that actually deploying them in horde formation is usually a bad option.

Usually. I'm unsure if I should combat reform to maximize as many guys as I can into the enemy to make sure I get more attacks but that's probably a bad idea. I will lose combat anyway. A few extra guys hitting might not hurt the rank bonus too bad if my opponent is super elite. Then again maybe i'll need the ranks that much more then.

Sometimes I just find the skaven are lacking with some things. We need better movement. Even rat wolves might be a nice option in the future. Something with 7-9 movement would be nice and possibly swiftstride. Magic just needs to be updated to 8th edition magic versions of the same spells. Weapons teams need at least one long range option beyond the range of the current poisoned wind mortar. I would just like more options than just hording. Rares are good but can be taken down by cannons pretty hard and some ranged attacks.

So I dunno I mostly just want more options. That's all I really want in the next skaven army book. Make it so I don't have to rely so heavily on just hordes and rares. Make weapons teams armies pretty viable too. Make some specialty units really annoying and decisive.

Anyway I'm going to bed for now. I have work in the morning.

On topic:
When a book was released is not a clear indication on when it gets its next update. Point in case: 40k Necron, which was updated in 2011, with the previous book released in 2002.

A lot of models have been disappearing from the website for a lot of armies. Specifically it seems to be metal models.

It is not an indication of a Skaven update.

...But you did remind me that I have been wanting a Craventail metal for a long time now... guess I should jump on that before it is removed.

 Purifier wrote:
A lot of models have been disappearing from the website for a lot of armies. Specifically it seems to be metal models.

Same with resin ones too. Some come back in stock, some don't. But as you state, it is not necessarily an indication of anything.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Skaven have an older book than beastmen. Currently only brets and wood elves are older. Trust me I saw the beastmen army book released after the skaven army book for myself. I know the skaven book is older because that's about when I started skaven.

But most people would agree that Beastmen need an update more desperately than Skaven.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
"Aged better" is quite an understatement given that power level wise, we're talking of polar opposites here

I still don't see how people think skaven are so top tier OP. As I've said before that was then and this is now. Most stories of skaven being OP was a couple years ago with no games being played since.

Aaaaaactually, stop right there.

Skaven are one of the few armies out there who can actually deal with WoC fairly well. Because they can shut down throgg and friends horrifically well. I've seen a skaven army remove that unit in a round. Just because they negated so many wounds.


That makes them quite valuable in the meta.

Well that must've been a hell of a list. Was that player particularly good or was the army itself pulling the weight? I do know some players that play a variety of armies including one that plays skaven and they just all around destroy their opponents. I think that skaven player used night runners in the list he used (which somebody just said sucked) and I think he also lost to demigryphs and knights with lots of cavalry and cannons for empire (it was a tournament).

------------

Anyway I may have been wrong and it may actually have been that metals are being re-done. That said plague monks are still 'out of stock' and they're old plastic models.

It was a screaming bellstar against throgg and friends. Throgg challenges, champ accepts, potion assassin kills 3-4 trolls. Rogre on the bell and the unit kill another 1-2, and the other assassin kills 1. 21 points of combat res , at max, right there. And the trolls won't be steadfast because the unit is deep, not wide.

As for the players. That came into it. As the WoC player was always going to charge the bell unit.

I hope the metals are being redone. I think that Skaven will be the last army (I think beastmen will be before since they need a rules update more).

If they make a Plastic model of Vermin Lord I will be buying it but most likely it will be a finecast (probably).
I wonder if they will make larger plastic kits of the individual/double models like Censor Bearers or Globadiers because I want some but 12 bucks a model....nope

 chiefbigredman wrote:
I hope the metals are being redone. I think that Skaven will be the last army (I think beastmen will be before since they need a rules update more).

If they make a Plastic model of Vermin Lord I will be buying it but most likely it will be a finecast (probably).
I wonder if they will make larger plastic kits of the individual/double models like Censor Bearers or Globadiers because I want some but 12 bucks a model....nope

The Vermin Lord is probably the prime suspect for being redone in plastic. The current model is almost as old as the old Nagash model, it looks terrible compared to the current range, it's a big centerpiece type of model which sells if it looks awesome and it's so far beneath the forgeworld model that pretty much everyone runs a forgeworld as a normal Vermin Lord (in the few cases where anyone brings a Vermin Lord)

No, I think if Skaven get a rework (which I wouldn't expect before 2016 seeing how well the Skaven book has aged) the Vermin Lord is probably just the one to get a face lift.

I could totally see Skaven being redone. Again, release date has nothing to do with it. Popularity does. I think everyone was surprised (and some people a little pissed) when they redid WoC so early. But WoC is really popular.

If people are still playing WE they probably aren't going anywhere anyway :p

Well every kit that was out of stock is currently back in stock. I guess it was just wishful thinking. Nothing wrong with wanting cool new units and toys right?

As much as I would enjoy some new Skaven lovlies, they really aren't in need of a reboot as strongly as other armies are. Think of it strictly from a business standpoint, and it's even more apparent.

While a portion of their models are older, metal, and require a facelift, the vast majority of their models are current, look great, and are viable choices. Clanrats, slaves, stormvermin, plaguemonks, the bell and furnace, cannons and catapaults, giant rats and ogres, the abomination, the doomwheel, and a fair amount of lords and heroes either in finecast or still looking good in metal.

Now if you consider all of that, and think about how much GW is shifting towards high-quality injection molded plastic, it's hard to justify making new and extremely expensive molds for a model range that is, overall, doing just fine.

Now compare alongside wood elves, bretonnia, and beastmen, all of which have VERY few current models in plastic that don't need an update (I can't think of anything for WE in plastic I wouldn't enjoy seeing redone, same goes for bretonnia (though I'd hope the general essence is kept), and beastmen have a couple decent plastic models as-is, but could definitely do with additions). I'm no expert on how GW makes their molds, but I doubt they do anything outside standard practices. That means being as economical as possible, and placing as many sprues on a mold as possible.

Hence, we get a lot of the "combo kits", where a single sprue is added to the box which gives an option for a whole other unit. Best candidates for doing this are those with the most units to update and which can be easily "converted" with a single extra sprue. We've seen how easy it is to do with elves, I can only assume beastmen to be equally easy, and combo horse kits we have seen before too a-la bretonnia. Skaven, however, are fairly varies in appearance.

Night runners and gutter runners I can see making a nice combo, same for clanrats and slaves. Not sure I see stormvermin or plague monks making a combo with anything, though an entire box that gave enough parts and options to build 2-3 weapons teams of any kind would be SOOOOOO nice. I think I've rambled enough, so I'll just end with that thought; a nice box filled with all the weapons teams I could ever wish for... ^_^

 Aipoch wrote:


Night runners and gutter runners I can see making a nice combo, same for clanrats and slaves. Not sure I see stormvermin or plague monks making a combo with anything, though an entire box that gave enough parts and options to build 2-3 weapons teams of any kind would be SOOOOOO nice. I think I've rambled enough, so I'll just end with that thought; a nice box filled with all the weapons teams I could ever wish for... ^_^

Actually it's more obvious than you think. Consider how some kits have a core unit mixed with a special choice or more elite unit. This means plague monks would have a multi-part kit with plague censer bearers. Stormvermin are already pretty new so they'll probably be kept to where they are now. Clanrats and slaves are already used in the same combo as you said (or pretty much are). Night runners and gutter runners would also work in one kit like you mentioned. As far as poisoned wind globadiers go they would work well as a combo kit for warlocks and for that possible jetpack skaven idea I had. I don't think a rebreather backpack is that big of a step from a jetpack mounted on one's back.

Yeah skaven have plenty of new core models. I will admit that. However our more elite and specialized units, a lot of our heroes and weapons teams as well as many single models in general need an update badly. In fact it's probably safe to say all the skaven special choices need an update. Now I realize most of the old metal models in the special choices are considered over-priced or under-performing whereas our core and rares rock face hard so you probably don't notice as much. In fact most of the useful stuff has a new model for it (except gutter runners and a couple heavy hitters as well as plague monks ). Overall though most of our army can look nice though played in a standard way.