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Long time lurker, first time poster. (Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place). Here's the challenge: how would you use 1000pts worth or so of the Eldar pieces below to beat a standard White Scars build (HQ with a squad of bikes, a couple attack bikes, a couple tactical squads in Rhinos)? Obviously these are the pieces I've sporadically collected over the years, but I'm trying to up my game and I think my real issue is how to use what I have. And for you go-buy-3-more-wave-serpent nay-says, there comes a time for every general when he or she has to make due with what they have, and still find a way to win. So, find a way.


HQ Options
Farseer (on foot)
-3 Warlocks
Autarch with Wings
Avatar
Maugan Ra

Troops
10 Defenders w/ Scatter laser
6 Rangers
3 Windrider Jetbikes
10 Dire Avengers (1 is an exarch)

Elites
8 Harlequins (1 is a death jester)
6 Fire Dragons (1 is an exarch)
5 Howling Banshees (1 is an exarch)

Transport
1 Wave Serpent

Fast Attack
3 Vypers

Heavy Support
2 Wraithlords
1 Falcon
1 Fire Prism

OK I will try to help you with your dilemma, as I know all to well what you mean about having to make do and find ways to win.

First off here is the list:

Warlord
Farseer - Spear - 100
Warlock - Spear - 35

10 Guardians - SL - 110
Wave serpent - TL-SL, Holo fields - 135
5 Dire Avengers - 65
5 Rangers - 60

3 Vypers - 3x EML - 195

Falcon - BL, Pulse laser, Holo fields - 150
Fire Prism - Holo fields - 140

Total = 1000 on the nose

The thinking behind this list is that the Guardians ride in the Wave serpent while the DA are in the Falcon. This provides a nice mobile core base for the army.

The Rangers should sit on your home objective and target special weapon dudes with their precision shots.

The Vypers are to escort the grav tanks and be used as mobile cover, I gave them EML because of their multi role they are so diverse, they can pop armour and infantry alike.

The Fire prism gets you another durable tank and another multi role weapon, anti tank, anti infantry, anti elite ect.

Farseer should take guide and prescience for buffing the DA and Falcon then switch to buffing DA and Guardians, his 3rd power is a bonus but IMO I would take shriek from telepethy to add some additional fire power.

The Warlock is aiming for Protect/Jinx power but any of the others can be beneficial especially Conceal/Reveal when out of your transport holding that vital objective.

Lastly the Singing spears are added just to make up the points but can be used to help down MC if close combat ensues.

Hope I have helped out some what.

Your biggest advantage will come from deploying second to counter deploy, then infiltrate your rangers forward to prevent his scout movements.

Thanks Gimli - I like the list. Two questions for you: 1. What do you mean when you save the Vypers are mobile cover? Do I put them between the tanks and my opponent? I'm worried about their weak 10 Armor and just getting taken out. 2. Are 5 Rangers work it? Against 3+ saves I feel like they aren't likely to put out much damage. Why not Jet bikes instead?

Thanks again!

gooseberry3.14159 wrote:
1. What do you mean when you save the Vypers are mobile cover? Do I put them between the tanks and my opponent? I'm worried about their weak 10 Armor and just getting taken out.
2. Are 5 Rangers work it? Against 3+ saves I feel like they aren't likely to put out much damage. Why not Jet bikes instead?

1) Yes this exactly what I mean, the av10 should not be much of a problem as you should be out of range of most of the enemies army. If you find yourself caught out with them you can always turbo boost away and keep them hidden, use their 48" missile range to your advantage.

2) I think in such as small point game the rangers will excel over the jetbikes, they will be in cover and the help you from the start of T1. Your enemy will not see them as much of a threat so they should survive and be a consent thorn in your enemies side.They will also wound the White Scars bikers a lot easier than jetbikes.

 GimlisonofGloin wrote:
OK I will try to help you with your dilemma, as I know all to well what you mean about having to make do and find ways to win.

First off here is the list:

Warlord
Farseer - Spear - 100
Warlock - Spear - 35

10 Guardians - SL - 110
Wave serpent - TL-SL, Holo fields - 135
5 Dire Avengers - 65
5 Rangers - 60

3 Vypers - 3x EML - 195

Falcon - BL, Pulse laser, Holo fields - 150
Fire Prism - Holo fields - 140

Total = 1000 on the nose
.

Thoughts on this list.
Drop all EMLs from vypers. for 3x the price of a bright lance, its so much better to just keep them with bright lances. Also using them as mobile cover for the tanks is sort of dumb, as that just lets them get shot even easier, and the tanks already have a 5+ jink save.
Falcons are meh. If you do insist take them with 5 fire dragons inside. Drop the 5 dire avengers, drop warlock, and put the guardians inside serpent. Add 3 jet bikes.

Far seer, spear 105
10 guardians, wave serpent with twin linked scatter laser, shuiken cannon (always a gret upgrade) and holo fields. 255
3 jet bikes, shuiken cannon 61
3 jet bikes shuiken cannon 61
5 rangers 60

5 fire dragons 110

2 vypers, 2 bright lances
fire prism holos 140
falcon bl, pulser laser, holos 150

Much better scoring and more output of damage.
(Let it never be said that i made a list with a falcon in it, I hope and pray that ductvader doesn't see this)

Thanks for weighing in, ninja. Here's what I don't understand about fire dragons and the Falcon: fire dragons are a short range unit but the Falcon is a long range unit. To use the dragons I have to send my Falcon up into range of more weapons. This seems counter productive. What am I missing?

Second, are BL that much better with so fewer shots that star canons or scatters?

Third, you also included Rangers. Do you agree with Gimli about their effectiveness?

1: Falcon doesnt have to be long ranged. You can go up close to deliver the goodies then shoot your way out.
2: The bright lance, scatter laser, and star cannons all have different roles. They each are best at what they do. Choose one and stick with it, there all equally good.
3: One of the biggest mistakes people make with rangers is taking them for there fire power. Thats a big no no. Rangers on average do less than one wound to a tactical marine. Thats pretty pathetic. You take rangers for the cheap and decently survivable scoring.

It's worth noting that as a White Scars player, Dark Reapers are absolute death for me. I know you don't have any at present, but if bikes give you particular trouble perhaps you should consider them for your next purchase.

Thanks hedgehog, I think I will be getting some reapers in the future. For now, what are the units listed above you fear the most and the least when playing White Scars? And how would you defeat the tactics described above?

Bikes do have some weaknesses.

- High-volume, medium strength fire can really hurt. My junk save is pretty good anyway, so AP3/2 is not actually that scary, given the premium you pay for it (Dark Reapers being the exception due to being able to ignore jink!). But stuff that can put out loads of S5/6/7 shots can really hurt, just through volume of saves.

- Bikes can't climb! Infantry you can place on the upper level of a building, especially when it can also shoot at long range, is very difficult to dislodge. Rangers in a ruin for example are pretty hard for White Scars to dislodge, and if they're on an objective then it's probably yours. Note that Reapers also fit in this category...

- The White Scars' biggest advantage above all else is mobility. Most people think they're just about about sheer speed, but in fact the key is really the ability for my units to be where I want, when I want, that wins my games. As such, armies that can match me for speed are tricky, as they can react or even take the initiative from me. Consider using your grav tanks, Vypers and jetbikes as a rapid response force, countering the White Scars' moves and attempts to take control of the battle, all the while using their firepower to whittle the enemy down.

Another unit that would be a good addition to this army would be Warp Spiders. They are a great unit to put behind his Bikes and force him to make tough movement and targetting decisions. Their ability to pseudo-rend with high STR weapons with adequate volume is a bonus...plus their speed.

Excellent comments here, thanks everyone.

Would Vypers with SL and Shuriken Cannons be optimal against bikes? Sounds like rangers on top of a building is pretty clutch.

This question is more general, not just Eldar v. White Scars, but how do you control a battle? Do you try to take out your opponent's strongest unit and crippled them, or do you whittle them down by targeting weaker units?

gooseberry3.14159 wrote:
This question is more general, not just Eldar v. White Scars, but how do you control a battle? Do you try to take out your opponent's strongest unit and crippled them, or do you whittle them down by targeting weaker units?

That's a very interesting and unanswerable question.

It depends on what you brought, what you're facing and the playstyles of yourself and your opponent.

Personally, If my short ranged, sort of assaulty Grey Knights or Tyranids can control the center of the board, I probably won the game.

My Eldar...psh...who knows...they want to stay out of the center for sure. Most of my games start castled and then explode in all different directions. But I also have game where my whole army will take a lap around the table and sometimes you dedicate a flank.

Eldar do less board control and more board management, unless you brought Wraith or some Phoenix Lord(s)

gooseberry3.14159 wrote:
Excellent comments here, thanks everyone.

Would Vypers with SL and Shuriken Cannons be optimal against bikes? Sounds like rangers on top of a building is pretty clutch.

This question is more general, not just Eldar v. White Scars, but how do you control a battle? Do you try to take out your opponent's strongest unit and crippled them, or do you whittle them down by targeting weaker units?

1. Scatter + Cannon is a great combo for Vypers. Dual Cannons are great too if you need to shave some points. Take Lances if you are having a hard time with AV.

2. Target priority is very situational. As a rule of thumb, I target the unit most likely to have a large negative impact on my own scorring units, but only if I can cause meaningful damage to that unit.

3. Some other general advice. Use your mobility, and keep your grav tanks alive. Keep in mind it is almost always better to move flat out instead of shooting if it means keeping a Falcon/Prisim/Serpent out of assault range.

I think the trick is to make your opponent play reactive. If your opponent must change his plans specifically because of an action you took, then you have an advantage. Cause your opponent to abandon his game plan and play into your game style.

Against this white scars list you could do well. He doesn't seem to have as much mobility as most will. The simplest advice is to use shuriken weaponry on the bikes. Even if you don't get the rends pumping in a high volume of low value shots will force more saves and eventually your opponent will fail them. Don't forget to target the tac squads. Pop the Rhinos early. After that you have a chance to actually start killing marines. Honestly the attack bikes aren't all that scary IMO. They can be pests but they don't score and cost more then they are worth. Don't be afraid of close combat. Most codex marines lists have a few strong cc units and the rest are not extremely effective. Just keep your warlord away from the captain.

I have had trouble with wraithlords as a scars player. The normal scars lists simply do not have a ton of high strength firepower. From the sounds of his lists there will only be a handful of models which will be able to wound the WL. If you play one be aggressive with it. If you really shove it down his throat he will need to deal with it.