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I am in the process of building a 1K sons CSM army and would like to add a squadron of AM Wyverns as an allied traitor guard detachment. What would be the most effective way to add these units to my army?

I was debating this very thing myself for my CSM. I don't have a Dex yet but would minimum troops and see if I could squeeze 2 in.

Points wise I'd go with
1 company Command Squad
2 Vetern Squads
and 3 Wyvrens.


that'll cost you about 375 points all total,

 sub-zero wrote:
I am in the process of building a 1K sons CSM army and would like to add a squadron of AM Wyverns as an allied traitor guard detachment. What would be the most effective way to add these units to my army?

A min vet squad will run you 60...company command another 60. That's a 120 point tax to buy access to IG allies.

IMO, if you're really hard for IG as allies, I'd run a Tank Commander as the HQ instead of the CCS. Two AV14 hulls go pretty well with just about everything.


My CSM army is currently Typhus, 70 Plague Zombies, 2 Heldrakes, 4 Russes (2 HQ Russes, 2 Heavy Support Russes), a min Vet squad in a Chimera, and a Primaris Psyker to buff the Russes. You could easily switch things around (i.e., add a third Heldrake) if you downgraded the Heavy Support Russes to a Wyvern squadron.

I don't have the AM codex yet, but from I've heard, you can take an astropath psyker as an HQ choice. I would use the psyker for prescience on the Wyvern squad of 3 and then use the minimum (cheapest) troop choice as a meat shield for the Wyverns. The psyker and the Wyvern squadron comes to 245 points, I don't know how much a cheap troop option would cost.

 sub-zero wrote:
I don't have the AM codex yet, but from I've heard, you can take an astropath psyker as an HQ choice. I would use the psyker for prescience on the Wyvern squad of 3 and then use the minimum (cheapest) troop choice as a meat shield for the Wyverns. The psyker and the Wyvern squadron comes to 245 points, I don't know how much a cheap troop option would cost.

Astropath does not get access to divination.
Wyverns are already twin linked and thus don't need prescience.

If you're looking to minimize points, you need to start with a primaris psyker (if you don't want anything else then skip this as well) and add in vets with the +1 cover save upgrade. [70 points] You don't put special weapons on these guys as you just want to go to ground on a backfield objective and stay within 12" or a psyhic target.

The problem with a CCS, is it is not going to do much with just a vet squad and it's own squad. So, you need to look at something else that will have some use. Yarrik would be great if you're battle brothers, but we can skip him. That gives the Tank commander. The tank commander will have use in every army and synergy from a primaris psyker. That'll probably be your best bet.

Rumor have FW updating the traitor guard armies, which would fit much better but who know is Wyverns will be part of it.

 sub-zero wrote:
I don't have the AM codex yet, but from I've heard, you can take an astropath psyker as an HQ choice. I would use the psyker for prescience on the Wyvern squad of 3 and then use the minimum (cheapest) troop choice as a meat shield for the Wyverns. The psyker and the Wyvern squadron comes to 245 points, I don't know how much a cheap troop option would cost.

Astropaths are part of the Company Command Squad. The cheapest HQ choice you could take is a Lord Inquisitor. You could then take up to 3 Primaris Psykers for access to Divination. HOWEVER because Guard and CSM are "Allies of Convience" you can't use psychic powers on them (they're enemy models you can't shoot at, assault or target with psychic powers).

just a quick offtopic ish question, is there a formation that allows you to take Daemon heralds as allies? because you can get the tzeentch ones for divination if you so wanted...

though i am likeing the look of this better and better

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
just a quick offtopic ish question, is there a formation that allows you to take Daemon heralds as allies? because you can get the tzeentch ones for divination if you so wanted...

though i am likeing the look of this better and better

No formations/datasheets to do that. You have to ally them the old fashioned way.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
I am in the process of building a 1K sons CSM army and would like to add a squadron of AM Wyverns as an allied traitor guard detachment. What would be the most effective way to add these units to my army?

A min vet squad will run you 60...company command another 60. That's a 120 point tax to buy access to IG allies.

To be fair, they're all BS4 and can each take a ton of special weapons, that's potentially 10 plasma guns in those three units. A good player should be able to find a use for those

Just out of curiosity, why on earth are you adding wyverns? The entire CSM codex oozes anti-light-infantry killing power.

As for how to run them anyways, I'd use them by putting them in the front and using them to block LOS for other stuff. They're cheap enough to do this, and after your fist volley, you'll likely freak your opponent out with HOW MANY LITTLE BLASTIES!?!?! that he'll throw way too much firepower into them, and ignore the important stuff that's actually closing down on him like spawn and terminators, and whatever.

Make sure you paint them construction orange or dayglow green to complete the effect.

 Ailaros wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why on earth are you adding wyverns? The entire CSM codex oozes anti-light-infantry killing power.

As for how to run them anyways, I'd use them by putting them in the front and using them to block LOS for other stuff. They're cheap enough to do this, and after your fist volley, you'll likely freak your opponent out with HOW MANY LITTLE BLASTIES!?!?! that he'll throw way too much firepower into them, and ignore the important stuff that's actually closing down on him like spawn and terminators, and whatever.

Make sure you paint them construction orange or dayglow green to complete the effect.

wouldnt it be points efficient though? compared to whats in our own codex?

Rhinos are cheaper, but wyverns are bigger, and have AV12 in the front. Plus, nobody's going to get suckered into shooting a rhino than at something else.

 Ailaros wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why on earth are you adding wyverns? The entire CSM codex oozes anti-light-infantry killing power.

As for how to run them anyways, I'd use them by putting them in the front and using them to block LOS for other stuff. They're cheap enough to do this, and after your fist volley, you'll likely freak your opponent out with HOW MANY LITTLE BLASTIES!?!?! that he'll throw way too much firepower into them, and ignore the important stuff that's actually closing down on him like spawn and terminators, and whatever.

Make sure you paint them construction orange or dayglow green to complete the effect.

I'm flipping through my CSM codex, but can't seem to come across any units that are twin linked, ignores cover, doesn't need LOS, and re-roll to wound (shred).

Actually ranged wound generation is one (of many) CSM weaknesses. It's pricey with a tank commander but AM make excellent allies for CSM and vise versa.

We're talking about a codex with sonic blaster noise marines and khorne berzerkers as troops. Plus, all the other crazy things with lightning claws, power weapons, etc. There should be no problem whatsoever handling hordes.

You don't need to handle them at long range to handle them. Instead, you could use your chaos lords, sorcerers, your own pile of cheap cultists, regular CSM with bolters, regular CSM with BP+CCW, plague marines, noise marines, khorne berzerkers, possessed, mutilators, terminators with or without lightning claws or combi-flamers, bikes, raptors, warp talons, maulerfiends, helldrakes, or any vehicle or upgrade with soulblaze.

Seriously. Adding anti-infantry to a CSM list is like allying in a guard power blob to a GK list because there weren't quite enough power weapons...

 sub-zero wrote:


I'm flipping through my CSM codex, but can't seem to come across any units that are twin linked, ignores cover, doesn't need LOS, and re-roll to wound (shred).

helldrake . str6 >str 4 shred. ignores cover ap3 >ap4 . flyer>ground vehicle . vector strike>no melee ability .

 Ailaros wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why on earth are you adding wyverns? The entire CSM codex oozes anti-light-infantry killing power.

As for how to run them anyways, I'd use them by putting them in the front and using them to block LOS for other stuff. They're cheap enough to do this, and after your fist volley, you'll likely freak your opponent out with HOW MANY LITTLE BLASTIES!?!?! that he'll throw way too much firepower into them, and ignore the important stuff that's actually closing down on him like spawn and terminators, and whatever.

Make sure you paint them construction orange or dayglow green to complete the effect.

It is a good way to make people hate you . one wyvern takes around 6-7 min to alocate hits , if movment is done realy quick , the first chaos player turn could take around 30min+. if there was no night fight turn one . the 1 hour play time could be up on chaos players turn 2 , if there was night fight . And if he uses tyfus and zombis in the same list his turn could easily take up 40-50 min.

Makumba wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:


I'm flipping through my CSM codex, but can't seem to come across any units that are twin linked, ignores cover, doesn't need LOS, and re-roll to wound (shred).

helldrake . str6 >str 4 shred. ignores cover ap3 >ap4 . flyer>ground vehicle . vector strike>no melee ability .

 Ailaros wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why on earth are you adding wyverns? The entire CSM codex oozes anti-light-infantry killing power.

As for how to run them anyways, I'd use them by putting them in the front and using them to block LOS for other stuff. They're cheap enough to do this, and after your fist volley, you'll likely freak your opponent out with HOW MANY LITTLE BLASTIES!?!?! that he'll throw way too much firepower into them, and ignore the important stuff that's actually closing down on him like spawn and terminators, and whatever.

Make sure you paint them construction orange or dayglow green to complete the effect.

It is a good way to make people hate you . one wyvern takes around 6-7 min to alocate hits , if movment is done realy quick , the first chaos player turn could take around 30min+. if there was no night fight turn one . the 1 hour play time could be up on chaos players turn 2 , if there was night fight . And if he uses tyfus and zombis in the same list his turn could easily take up 40-50 min.

helldrakes template can only hit so many models, so for say a unit of 20 boys, you can cover 5 of them. 12 small blasts should cover about 25 wounds maybe more. so for larger units you will kill more models. also drake needs to come in from reservers and there is ways to make this better.... IF they dfont come in till turn 4 its all bad, but these are there from turn 1.

not discounting the pigeon here, i just think they fulfill different roles, the drake MEQ killer. anything with a tshirt is gonna die better to wyverns

as to the time taken, iv known marine players taht take 3 thunderfire cannons.... is this not near enough the same?

EDIT:

now i dont have the new IG book, so i cant confirm the points. but we were looking at the rough 300 pts to run this type of unit, thats a drake and 5 base PM.. for more bodies, and what i see as a good advantage against a horde... so instead of say trip drakes you might take 2, or instead of 2 take1, though to be fair youd still want a pair of them...

Makumba - doesnt show up until turn 2 at the earliest, every one and their dog has Intercepting *something* that has a good chance of downing 1 or 2 that show up on turn 2, and 12 small blasts with reroll to wound on T3 is better than 1 template on S6 - just not for ID.

Wyvern are absolutely horrific to play against if you are foot slogging.

Aside for tau and nids , which army has enough interceptor to down 2 flyers per turn ?
As for the 2ed turn reservs , a lot of missions have night fight , so the first turn shoting doesn't work great either.
What do you mean by wyverns being awesome versus t3. Most armies are t4 and a lot of the t3 stuff rolls in transports.

And absolutly no one plays footslogging , unless the foot is actualy a bike

so for say a unit of 20 boys,

If orks are the army to beat where you play .

is this not near enough the same?

Not the same , as it ain't twin linked . Takes twice as much time with re-rolls .

Tau do. They can reliably kill 2 AV12 a turn, and that assumes you get 2 in on turn 2 when that is only approximately a 50% occurrence (4/9) using basic mathammer.

No, it takes 33% more, assuming you scatter in a poor direction 50% of the time you do not hit which is 1/3rd of the time.

I guess youve never seen guard blobs, either.

Any hit is a wound against T4 75% of the time, and against a spread out tac squad I'm getting usually 3 hits per template. 36 hits is 27 wounds which is 9 dead tac marines. In cover, out of LOS, wherever.

Makumba wrote:
Aside for tau and nids , which army has enough interceptor to down 2 flyers per turn ?
As for the 2ed turn reservs , a lot of missions have night fight , so the first turn shoting doesn't work great either.
What do you mean by wyverns being awesome versus t3. Most armies are t4 and a lot of the t3 stuff rolls in transports.

And absolutly no one plays footslogging , unless the foot is actualy a bike

so for say a unit of 20 boys,

If orks are the army to beat where you play .

is this not near enough the same?

Not the same , as it ain't twin linked . Takes twice as much time with re-rolls .

re rolls dont take twice as long, thats only if you need to re roll every dice... yet its only 1 dice at a time so can be done VERY quickly... people in your area must play really slow.

and so you wound on what 4's with re roll, that should be 75% effectiveness, so on 25 hits it would be 18 wounds, and to be honest you should prolly get more than 25 hits on 12 templates. now a flamer template can hit what 5 models, and would wound 4 times on T4. sure those 4 dont get saves.. but nearly 6 MEQ fail armor saves on 18 dice.. gues whats a winner there... (just saw nos did some math too)

now if you adjust for points your looking at about equal overall, BUT when you take it to anything with 5+ or worse armor.... BOOM... no saves and 18 a turn where the flamer can only get 5. so as i said above its not just orks, its anything. AV12 front and that you can buffer it behind ANYTHING where a drake needs to move every turn, and may even need to leave the board, may not be there turn 2 etc etc...

and as to night fight, anything you can target with these at less than 36" still doesnt get its saves.. the shrouded buff being a cover save.. ignored.

so these could be a very interesting add in for any army that has units that need to be deleted from the range of a lascannon.

and boys were an example, add nids, tau, IG or anything else you feel like that takes large units, OR something you want to roll LOTS of wounds... Ill be honest id love to make termies take a bunch of saves kill by weight of dice.

I have an Astra Militarum, ork, necron, Tyranid, and a SM player in my gaming group. So the possible addition of (3) Wyverns seems like a viable idea to me.

My question is: What is the most "point efficient" way to add (3) Wyverns to a CSM army?

 sub-zero wrote:
I have an Astra Militarum, ork, necron, Tyranid, and a SM player in my gaming group. So the possible addition of (3) Wyverns seems like a viable idea to me.

My question is: What is the most "point efficient" way to add (3) Wyverns to a CSM army?

Lord commissar
Primaris Psyker
Vets with Forward Sentries + 3 plasma gun (+ depending on how you use them, maybe a heavy weapon).

This unit will make an okay mid table half objective holder which can toss out TL 3 to 6 plasma gun shots. The unit can go to ground if needed and the Commissar will help them from running away. That is 230 points. I can't think of an HQ + TR formation for cheaper that could be effective.

Cheapest possible is 120 (Vets + CCS), but I think that the extra buys: prescience, plasma guns, Lord Commissar, and +1 cover with defense grenades make the unit much better.

I will note that I don't think this is the best option, but the best option to minimize the points.

re rolls dont take twice as long, thats only if you need to re roll every dice... yet its only 1 dice at a time so can be done VERY quickly... people in your area must play really slow.

if there are multiple of them and all can be re-rolled and all shots happen at the same time with a chance of hiting multiple units , they do .And it can't be done one dice at a time .

Makumba wrote:

re rolls dont take twice as long, thats only if you need to re roll every dice... yet its only 1 dice at a time so can be done VERY quickly... people in your area must play really slow.

if there are multiple of them and all can be re-rolled and all shots happen at the same time with a chance of hiting multiple units , they do .And it can't be done one dice at a time .

yes it is, once the first blast is down its just placing the addiontal blasts, so just the scatter dice is all that you will need to re roll.... so you can fast roll that. your not going to need perfect hits every time, soooo yeah it should be about 12 normal rolls and maybe 6-9 re rolls of a single dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NamelessBard wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
I have an Astra Militarum, ork, necron, Tyranid, and a SM player in my gaming group. So the possible addition of (3) Wyverns seems like a viable idea to me.

My question is: What is the most "point efficient" way to add (3) Wyverns to a CSM army?

Lord commissar
Primaris Psyker
Vets with Forward Sentries + 3 plasma gun (+ depending on how you use them, maybe a heavy weapon).

This unit will make an okay mid table half objective holder which can toss out TL 3 to 6 plasma gun shots. The unit can go to ground if needed and the Commissar will help them from running away. That is 230 points. I can't think of an HQ + TR formation for cheaper that could be effective.

Cheapest possible is 120 (Vets + CCS), but I think that the extra buys: prescience, plasma guns, Lord Commissar, and +1 cover with defense grenades make the unit much better.

I will note that I don't think this is the best option, but the best option to minimize the points.

you can only cast prescience on the vets though, as no BB status between CSM and IG

I did not say they would cast on CSM

 Ailaros wrote:

You don't need to handle them at long range to handle them.

This.

NamelessBard wrote:
I did not say they would cast on CSM

then its not much of a force multiplier, if the only thing it can be cast on is 1 squad, do you need it at all and the extra points cost? if the wyverns werent TL then maybe, but your taking mins of whatever to get them into play..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

You don't need to handle them at long range to handle them.

This.

yeeeeeah. but really... am i taking CC termies from CSM? no no im not... who does that even?

units of PM? again id rather not tie them up with blobs of troops.

and id like something that late game can blast a unit off a high point objective from accross the board. rather than walk ms CSM over to them to deny..

Makumba wrote:

re rolls dont take twice as long, thats only if you need to re roll every dice... yet its only 1 dice at a time so can be done VERY quickly... people in your area must play really slow.

if there are multiple of them and all can be re-rolled and all shots happen at the same time with a chance of hiting multiple units , they do .And it can't be done one dice at a time .

1) you roll sequentially. Every hit you don't Reroll, and a lot of scatter you don't Reroll either. It's just the scattedpr dice, one single dice only
2) as it is just a single dice, you can if you have multiple scatter dice - I have probably six just from over the years - fast roll. Even quicker.

You're so adamant that this is slow, but you don't seem to have either played with or against them with some competence. I note you are also silent about their ability to wound t4, and how many dead marines you get vs a bale flamer...