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Now, I'm going to begin this with I DON'T OWN CODEX: BA, and by extent don't have the rules. The theory discussed was made by memory of the rules between myself and a BA player who hasn't played for months, and any rules preventing this theory would be greatly appreciated.

So, the concept requires several fairly expensive units
Dante
Land Raider Crusader
Corbullo(optional)
Mephiston (also optional)
Assault unit of your choice (Death Company?)

Dante has a rule allowing perfect deep strike to the team he joins. Since BA LR can deep strike, him inside of this would confer Perfect Deep Strike to the LR. Perfect deep strike LR counts as having moved 6", but guys inside don't. Team jumps out of assault vehicle and into melee from deep strike with FNP from Corbullo and extra punchan power from Mephiston. I don't think Corbullo and Dante can join a Death Company, but it'd effectively work with other marines as well.

Would this work? If so, any improvements?

Mephiston cannot work period. He is not an independent character and cannot join units.

Likewise, the specific rules for Land Raiders state that units cannot assault on the turn their LR deep strikes.

Dante can't go inside a Land Raider.

Mephiston is not an IC, so can't join anyone inside a Land Raider.

Dante's deep strike special rule only applies if his entire unit has jump packs.

Still can't assault out of the Land Raider after it deep strikes.

And even if you could do all those things, it would still suck.

BA don't have a deathstar build. One of the reasons they suck.

They suck? I'm sorry, but this player tangles with me as Eldar and my brother as Tau. We sweat every game, and he's pulled quite a few wins in 6th. Are we talking the same Blood Angels?

As for this list, *sighs*, it had me slightly excited to see it work, but oh well.

 Will1541 wrote:
They suck? I'm sorry, but this player tangles with me as Eldar and my brother as Tau. We sweat every game, and he's pulled quite a few wins in 6th. Are we talking the same Blood Angels?

As for this list, *sighs*, it had me slightly excited to see it work, but oh well.

Against tournament level Tau or Eldar, Blood Angels will rarely win, yes. That is accurate. Trust me if you want, Martel will write an essay meant to convince you soon enough.

(Seriously though, BA's aren't good in the current environment and I'd be very curious to hear under what circumstances they regularly go toe-to-toe with the two best armies out there).

BA 2K


Eldar 2K


He deep strikes those Assault Squads, melts whatever he points them at tankwise, then LOS blocks them from further fire if possible. Then he assaults (with furious charge) to scrap more tanks, or my troops. And he CAN and DOES catch them with Jump Infantry. Plus the fact that cover doesn't save them in assault, he makes them quick scrap heaps. Oh, and one gets Dante for perfect Deep Strike and another melta shot.

The tanks compete in speed and (kind of) firepower with mine. Unless I can get the side armor, they stay fairly alive, and those lascannons can effectively kill any tank, even mine.

The tac squads derp for more units in deep strike. They also hold home objectives if I don't wipe them.

The Eldar player needs to learn how to set up to hose deep strikers. Dante can only accurate strike one squad and the others are all very vulnerable to mishap. Deep striking is actually a terrible way to deploy assault squads.

Also, in order to fire, the squad will have to stay bunched up in DS formation. Bubblewrap the Fire prism and then profit the turn after they DS.

If the Eldar list had proper seer council, this game wouldn't even be a match. Also, I feel like the Eldar list is wasting a lot of points, as I have fought 2K lists with WAY more firepower than this one.

The Eldar are only the top list if the general knows how to make them the top. This BA list is bad, but the Eldar list is proportionally much worse when compared to how good Eldar can be.

"and those lascannons can effectively kill any tank, even mine. "

No, the math of lascannons against WS is very, very bad. You are getting very unlucky or doing something wrong with target selection or something. BA armor is vulnerable and overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:
The Eldar player needs to learn how to set up to hose deep strikers. Dante can only accurate strike one squad and the others are all very vulnerable to mishap. Deep striking is actually a terrible way to deploy assault squads.

Vunerable? At 1d6? Never seen them mishap. Granted only 3 games, and 3 vs tau, but that's still 18 times. Not a once.

Also, in order to fire, the squad will have to stay bunched up in DS formation. Bubblewrap the Fire prism and then profit the turn after they DS.

LOS Block. He hides behind the wrecked vehicle, which usually starts with the Fire Prisms. If it were that simple I wouldn't hold BA as such a respected opponent.

If the Eldar list had proper seer council, this game wouldn't even be a match. Also, I feel like the Eldar list is wasting a lot of points, as I have fought 2K lists with WAY more firepower than this one.

If you're suggesting I go tournament style 5x DA, No. As for Seer Council, No again. A) Rending. It's a thing. B)Seer Council taken in Tournament Style would require C: DE. I refuse to purchase those heathenistic Space Freaks. They should by fluff standards not have any place with the Eldar

The Eldar are only the top list if the general knows how to make them the top. This BA list is bad, but the Eldar list is proportionally much worse when compared to how good Eldar can be.

Funny, only lost twice after 15 games, 4 of which were a Store Held Tournament where I placed 1st.

"and those lascannons can effectively kill any tank, even mine. "

No, the math of lascannons against WS is very, very bad. You are getting very unlucky or doing something wrong with target selection or something. BA armor is vulnerable and overcosted.

2 shots = 1.32 hits. Plus TL we'll say 2.5 for round numbers.
2.5 on a 3+ means 1.65 glance/pen per vehicle. On a fast body with Av13, not bad at all. As for Target selection, he just shrugs the shots on Av 13. Yeah, fire Prisms, but they don't last to 3-4 Meltas on rear armor.

I'm not saying he won every match, but he's still an excellent opponent, and a hard fight. The Angels are still a very playable force, and it bugs me that you're bashing your own army so much.

How on Earth is he getting into the rear armor of all your tanks, though? All those Wave Serpents should be downgrading pens to glances on a 2+ anyway, so...yeah, I just don't follow this chain of events.

If nothing else, I'm starting to get an idea of why people disagree so much with Martel when he talks about how bad BAs are.

Because people panic against them. I guess. Or forget their shooting phase. Or have a heart attack.

They need to exploit the lack of BA bodies. Or firepower. Or decent ICs Or good equipment options. Or death stars.

I'm pretty certain I could beat a BA player 90% of time with Eldar if all model options were available.

"LOS Block. He hides behind the wrecked vehicle, which usually starts with the Fire Prisms. If it were that simple I wouldn't hold BA as such a respected opponent. "

Bubble wrap with your serpent shields up. Melta suddenly become pedestrian.

"If you're suggesting I go tournament style 5x DA, No. As for Seer Council, No again."

Then don't talk about how good BA are. Because BA are awful and should be a trivial matchup for Eldar.

How is he getting melta shots on rear armor?
Don't the Infernus pistols only have a 3" Melta range?
3 shots, 2 hit, maybe 1 pens (outside melta) and you can either cover save or knock that down to a glance...
Bubble wrap your tanks and he can't even fire the pistols at them, let alone get Melta shots.

Also, YOU decide where to deploy your tanks. Put your tanks in place where he can't legally deep strike and still use them as LOS blockers. FORCE him to deep strike into kill zones. You just won the game right there without rolling a die.

"The Angels are still a very playable force, and it bugs me that you're bashing your own army so much."

I somehow missed that little gem. BA are objectively the worst list in the game right now. The overcostedness of that codex is staggering

What?

Three inferno pistols in each squad. They need to be within 3'' for melta, or 6'' to shoot at all. With 10-man squads, that's where mishaps happen. Then they need to hit with all three shots, glance/pen with all three shots, then you need to fail all the jink saves. I can't really see that happening on a regular basis.

It also doesn't help that you're wasting tons of points in that Eldar list. I'm fairly comfortable in being able to defeat it with my 1750 "for fun" Eldar army.

This isn't about how to fight him, I beat him twice and am not totally incompetent, thank you. As for how, he's crafty, and daring, and loves rolling the hit on Scatter die. Bubble wrap limits fire, clusters tanks, and is generally a tactic that bodes poorly for me. So I don't do it.

Excuse me for respecting an enemy that competes effectively and enjoying the game from a tactical perspective rather then fielding 10 bikes with a 2++ re-rollable that shouldn't exist by fluff standards.

But the fact of the matter is he does compete, he has won, and he has gotten close on the other attempts. Sure, winning isn't as simple as "Take three Riptides and shoot." but it's doable. Use some tactics rather than whine that your codex is bad.

 Will1541 wrote:
This isn't about how to fight him, I beat him twice and am not totally incompetent, thank you. As for how, he's crafty, and daring, and loves rolling the hit on Scatter die. Bubble wrap limits fire, clusters tanks, and is generally a tactic that bodes poorly for me. So I don't do it.

Excuse me for respecting an enemy that competes effectively and enjoying the game from a tactical perspective rather then fielding 10 bikes with a 2++ re-rollable that shouldn't exist by fluff standards.

But the fact of the matter is he does compete, he has won, and he has gotten close on the other attempts. Sure, winning isn't as simple as "Take three Riptides and shoot." but it's doable. Use some tactics rather than whine that your codex is bad.

Sorry, but I have no respect for that list. Dante is a horrible HQ and deep strike melta was a tactic that people learned the counters to back in 5th.

"So I don't do it."

Then stuff like this is going to happen to you. But that's your choice, not the BA being good. As I said, people figured out how to foil this in 5th.

"n fielding 10 bikes with a 2++ re-rollable that shouldn't exist by fluff standards."

But it does exist and that's what you should be using. Then the BA won't have much of a chance. That's why the BA are bad: no answer to 2+ rerollable 3+ cover rerollable 4++ rerollable.

 Will1541 wrote:
This isn't about how to fight him, I beat him twice and am not totally incompetent, thank you. As for how, he's crafty, and daring, and loves rolling the hit on Scatter die. Bubble wrap limits fire, clusters tanks, and is generally a tactic that bodes poorly for me. So I don't do it.

...limits fire? Sure - it limits the fire your tanks receive. So don't complain about Infernus pistols if a good player would deploy so that it's literally impossible for them to even shoot at your tanks.

Use some tactics rather than whine that your codex is bad.

What we're saying is that, even with your sub-optimal list, the BA player shouldn't be winning unless you're handing him the game.
Not bubble wrapping, not covering the rear of your tanks, etc sure as heck sounds like you're handing him the game to me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Will1541 wrote:
This isn't about how to fight him, I beat him twice and am not totally incompetent, thank you. As for how, he's crafty, and daring, and loves rolling the hit on Scatter die. Bubble wrap limits fire, clusters tanks, and is generally a tactic that bodes poorly for me. So I don't do it.

...limits fire? Sure - it limits the fire your tanks receive. So don't complain about Infernus pistols if a good player would deploy so that it's literally impossible for them to even shoot at your tanks.

Limits Fire. I have to put models than can hold speed with the tank around the tank (i.e either bikes or more tanks) and they block LOS because they're the same height, meanwhile i only gain minute bonuses. And I'm not complaining about the BA, I'm complaining about people complaining they're not OP.

And what is so "sub optimal" about my list? It wins. A lot. 86% win rate.Without being TFG. It actually throws down with and crushes tfg's like Three Knights.

 Will1541 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Will1541 wrote:
This isn't about how to fight him, I beat him twice and am not totally incompetent, thank you. As for how, he's crafty, and daring, and loves rolling the hit on Scatter die. Bubble wrap limits fire, clusters tanks, and is generally a tactic that bodes poorly for me. So I don't do it.

...limits fire? Sure - it limits the fire your tanks receive. So don't complain about Infernus pistols if a good player would deploy so that it's literally impossible for them to even shoot at your tanks.

Limits Fire. I have to put models than can hold speed with the tank around the tank (i.e either bikes or more tanks) and they block LOS because they're the same height, meanwhile i only gain minute bonuses. And I'm not complaining about the BA, I'm complaining about people complaining they're not OP.

Or you turtle until he drops, obliterate the Melta threat and then clean up.
It's not like your tanks are slow.
BA are far from overpowered. They have expensive troops with no real benefit.

And what is so "sub optimal" about my list? It wins. A lot. 86% win rate.Without being TFG. It actually throws down with and crushes tfg's like Three Knights.

A not really Seerstar, 3 Wave Serpents and 2 Fire Prisms?
Eh. Just not scary to me. I'm sure you win a lot of games - as do I and I play Nids. That's irrelevant.

 Will1541 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Will1541 wrote:
This isn't about how to fight him, I beat him twice and am not totally incompetent, thank you. As for how, he's crafty, and daring, and loves rolling the hit on Scatter die. Bubble wrap limits fire, clusters tanks, and is generally a tactic that bodes poorly for me. So I don't do it.

...limits fire? Sure - it limits the fire your tanks receive. So don't complain about Infernus pistols if a good player would deploy so that it's literally impossible for them to even shoot at your tanks.

Limits Fire. I have to put models than can hold speed with the tank around the tank (i.e either bikes or more tanks) and they block LOS because they're the same height, meanwhile i only gain minute bonuses. And I'm not complaining about the BA, I'm complaining about people complaining they're not OP.

And what is so "sub optimal" about my list? It wins. A lot. 86% win rate.Without being TFG. It actually throws down with and crushes tfg's like Three Knights.

I'll bet not an 86% against gravstars and screamerstars and real WS spam. Really, though, almost any Eldar list is gonna be TFG to a BA player.

rigeld2 wrote:

Or you turtle until he drops, obliterate the Melta threat and then clean up.
It's not like your tanks are slow.
BA are far from overpowered. They have expensive troops with no real benefit.

And what is so "sub optimal" about my list? It wins. A lot. 86% win rate.Without being TFG. It actually throws down with and crushes tfg's like Three Knights.

A not really Seerstar, 3 Wave Serpents and 2 Fire Prisms?

That's what I did game three, two I hugged walls of map to limit his fire on rear.

I'm not calling them OP, because they're not. Nor do they need to be. Martel is whining that they're not OP. Stahp.

Not trying seerstar. the seers are there for durability on the bikes, and rerolls on stuff. Each operates separately and boosts the army, not themselves. Furthermore, yeah 3 Serpents and two Prisms, Prisms get re roll to hit from Mantleseer. And 36 surprise rending shots at any point I need them. And Kurenai. Don't underestimate the Crimson Hunter.

I don't fear real serpent spam with this list. At 2k you'll have, what, 8? Guided Prisms kill tanks faster. I'll put my money on them.

Serpent spam has enough S7 to kill the prisms in a single turn, and they'll be killed first.

You think I want BA to be OP? That's not even close to the truth.

Martel732 wrote:

You think I want BA to be OP? That's not even close to the truth.

Hmm....

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have a deathstar build. One of the reasons they suck.

Martel732 wrote:
Serpent spam has enough S7 to kill the prisms in a single turn, and they'll be killed first.

True to a degree, but the S: 6 will be null through ghostwalk 3+ cover, and now your praying that an AP -- weapon will outshoot S:9 AP: 1 Lance. Oh, and it's Guided. I'll smoke one a turn if they think about dropping those, and it's not a stretch to say two. Plus my serpents returning the favor, and Kurenai cleans the rest.

One of the "strongest" Dante deathstars you could make in BA is Dante, jump priest, jump Libby with blood lance and shield of sanguinius, 10 ASM with 2 meltas, and a chaplain.

Note that "strongest" is very relative here. I wouldn't use that deathstar in anything resembling competitive play. The thing clocks in at an alarming 750+ points. It would be at least a little better if Dante had eternal warrior, (which he always should have had anyway,) to take wounds for the squad right after the drop. Or yknow, if the unit had more firepower and a bunch of drones and split fire and twinlink ignore cover- hey, that sounds like another race's deathstar that stole Dante's deep strike ability!

You also have to be hilariously careful to land in a spot where you won't be murdered in a turn.

If you can start the game by, perhaps, telling the other player that you've never gotten to see the unit in action, and that you really want to, and that it's your birthday, and your grandma died today, and you brought him some snacks, then MAYBE he'll actually go a little softer on D's unit than he should, and you can start doing some actual damage with that third of your army.

niv-mizzet wrote:
One of the "strongest" Dante deathstars you could make in BA is Dante, jump priest, jump Libby with blood lance and shield of sanguinius, 10 ASM with 2 meltas, and a chaplain.

Note that "strongest" is very relative here. I wouldn't use that deathstar in anything resembling competitive play. The thing clocks in at an alarming 750+ points. It would be at least a little better if Dante had eternal warrior, (which he always should have had anyway,) to take wounds for the squad right after the drop. Or yknow, if the unit had more firepower and a bunch of drones and split fire and twinlink ignore cover- hey, that sounds like another race's deathstar that stole Dante's deep strike ability!

You also have to be hilariously careful to land in a spot where you won't be murdered in a turn.

If you can start the game by, perhaps, telling the other player that you've never gotten to see the unit in action, and that you really want to, and that it's your birthday, and your grandma died today, and you brought him some snacks, then MAYBE he'll actually go a little softer on D's unit than he should, and you can start doing some actual damage with that third of your army.

Humorous. Question, what book trees can the libbies roll on?

 Will1541 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Eldar player needs to learn how to set up to hose deep strikers. Dante can only accurate strike one squad and the others are all very vulnerable to mishap. Deep striking is actually a terrible way to deploy assault squads.

Vunerable? At 1d6? Never seen them mishap. Granted only 3 games, and 3 vs tau, but that's still 18 times. Not a once.

Also, in order to fire, the squad will have to stay bunched up in DS formation. Bubblewrap the Fire prism and then profit the turn after they DS.

LOS Block. He hides behind the wrecked vehicle, which usually starts with the Fire Prisms. If it were that simple I wouldn't hold BA as such a respected opponent.

If the Eldar list had proper seer council, this game wouldn't even be a match. Also, I feel like the Eldar list is wasting a lot of points, as I have fought 2K lists with WAY more firepower than this one.

If you're suggesting I go tournament style 5x DA, No. As for Seer Council, No again. A) Rending. It's a thing. B)Seer Council taken in Tournament Style would require C: DE. I refuse to purchase those heathenistic Space Freaks. They should by fluff standards not have any place with the Eldar

The Eldar are only the top list if the general knows how to make them the top. This BA list is bad, but the Eldar list is proportionally much worse when compared to how good Eldar can be.

Funny, only lost twice after 15 games, 4 of which were a Store Held Tournament where I placed 1st.

"and those lascannons can effectively kill any tank, even mine. "

No, the math of lascannons against WS is very, very bad. You are getting very unlucky or doing something wrong with target selection or something. BA armor is vulnerable and overcosted.

2 shots = 1.32 hits. Plus TL we'll say 2.5 for round numbers.
2.5 on a 3+ means 1.65 glance/pen per vehicle. On a fast body with Av13, not bad at all. As for Target selection, he just shrugs the shots on Av 13. Yeah, fire Prisms, but they don't last to 3-4 Meltas on rear armor.

I'm not saying he won every match, but he's still an excellent opponent, and a hard fight. The Angels are still a very playable force, and it bugs me that you're bashing your own army so much.

Your math is fail on the lascannons. 2 shots get 2.5 hits what. Lascannons are good en mass but super expensive. 2 I'm calling bs on your 86% win percentage. If you care about fluff there is almost every example possible of a list. Your tactics would get you killed cause if you can't deal with BA deep strike then there is no way you can beat any good deamon list, you have no mass flyer killers so necron flying list would kill you. I'm not saying you can't win with this list but saying your only losses are to BA then what are the wins against.

 Will1541 wrote:

Humorous. Question, what book trees can the libbies roll on?

Biomancy and divination. And some others that aren't important.
I take divination 90% of the time, but in a Dante star, doing a blood lance on your turn and then a cover save on theirs with only one warp charge is pretty good. The lance with no-scatter Libby positioning CAN do some damage if people make a nice line of vehicles for you. And fail DtW, and you roll good line range. You'll usually only find good lineup shots against side armor though.

 ravengatorfan wrote:
[
Your math is fail on the lascannons. 2 shots get 2.5 hits what. Lascannons are good en mass but super expensive. 2 I'm calling bs on your 86% win percentage. If you care about fluff there is almost every example possible of a list. Your tactics would get you killed cause if you can't deal with BA deep strike then there is no way you can beat any good deamon list, you have no mass flyer killers so necron flying list would kill you. I'm not saying you can't win with this list but saying your only losses are to BA then what are the wins against.

My math is fine. 3 Lascannons, one twin linked. 2.5-ish hits for round numbers.

86% Win Percentage at a local tournament. Local. LOCAL.The only TFG player was a Tri-Knight SM that I crushed under boot. Only losses was to surprise Blangel Deep strike discussed earlier and Tau, but outside the Tournie. 13 wins, two losses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Niv Mizzet, it's a crying shame Iron Arm isn't Primaris. Libby, Termis, Corbulo, Iron Arm, Laughter. But only 1/6 chance. As for points, the one discussed would've pushed 950, so eh. Deathstars are meant to be costly.

Anyway, the whole "BA suck vs Eldar" debate comes down to this - the best lists you can put out in an Eldar army are significantly better than the best lists a BA army can put out. This is pretty much a fact, if only due to their ridiculous 5th ed pricing compared to 6th ed Eldar prices.

Also, just because we say the army sucks doesn't mean it can't win. It just means that you're fighting at a significant disadvantage.

Back to the original suggestion (in addition to the assaulting from deepstrike issue), a unit does not confer their special rules to transports. So unless there is some weird wording, Dante's deepstrike rule would only apply to the death company and not their transport.