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What do you think is more viable?

I am looking to run 4 Riptides in a 2k tournament, but cant decide how I want to divvy up the wargear. I am thinking 3 Iontides and 1 Bursttide so far. What do you think I should use?

The 5 points is a worthwhile investment. I did not care for the way the heavy burst canon preformed. If I wanted to put out a bunch of shots I would see the stealth team or fire warriors.
If it where me I would do all four with Ion, leave the infantry killing to fire warriors

Why not two of each?

The Bursttide is reasonably efficient at clearing out non-MEQ troops and popping light vehicles. But the Ion Accelerator does serviceable work at those two jobs, in adition to dropping AP3 pie plates at 60"

I would just run three Iontides, especially if you're going to face a lot of MEQ (the Heavy Burst Cannon is laughably bad against stuff with 3+ armor).

From an Eldar player perspective I am somewhat more afraid of facing a Bursttide (with a buffmander) than an Iontide. It seems to be better at wrecking Wave Serpents and wounding WK.
But in most matchups the Ion is propably the better choice. Let's spread more deepstrike hate!

Iontides are more reliable on their own, as blast templates rarely straight up miss a side of a table unless youre aiming at a stranded unit, or on top of ruins. Usually hit SOMETHING every time i fire mine, even if it isnt the intended target lol.

HBC without the nova charge gun for 12 S6 AP4 Rending shots is pretty lame. If it was Twinlinked, it would be amazing, but probably a bit broken too lol. I never run an HBCTide unless i am attaching a buffmander to him, or theres an ally FoC around to throw Prescience on him.

HBC is technically stronger, as it can kill everything with the nova charge. Its the BS3, no twinlink, and requires a 3+ roll to even attempt it that makes it not that reliable.

Basically its weighing reliability vs power. In raw damage, given ideal situations, the HBC is usually superb in any situation including AA which it skyrockets in comparison. But, fail that 3+ and suddenly the unit is almost useless lol. Ions are less top-end strong, but are almost always going to do something.

HBC Tide works wonders with the Earth Cast Pilot Array from Farsight Enclaves.

The problem with the HBC is that is is a Nova Charge hog. The default profile is borderline useless, while the Nova Charge is actually quite good (and arguably the most reliable way for Tau to hunt heavy armor at long range). You have to eschew the other Nova charge options when using the HBC, spend rounds doing very little when the Nova fails, and you really want markerlight support to improve your ballistic skill.

The Ion Accelerator, on the other hand, can effectively kill things without Nova Charge or markerlight support. This frees nova charges for use in boosting the shields, jetpacks and secondary weapons, and keeps the model useful even when the nova test fails.

If you do run an HBC, give it the Earth Caste Pilot array to ensure your Nova Charge goes off almost every round. It is also good to run in conjunction with a velocity tracker. I feel the IA is wasted against aircraft, but the HBC is great against them.

That is true. See my main concern is Air Cav armies like Necron French Bakery, or what is quite popular now, the Daemons FMC Circus. That is what sparked my question. What I started out with was 3/1 in favor if IA Tides. I put in 1 HBC Tide because it does have its uses. What is the better way to go then for taking down Flyers and FMCs alike? The EWO and Velocity Tracker are great for Skyfire and Interceptor, but I haven't gotten the opportunity to test out the IA Tide this way.

I've come to see the HBC as a giant magnet for the buffcommander. With the commander, and a little luck to get the Nova charge off, it's an amazing unit.

But I think on it's own it's not bad, even without the Nova. It's got a decent number of mid strength shots and coupled with a SMS it can put some wounds on a number of units. I consider it a "safer" choice just because I've had a bad streak of rolling 1's for get hot 30% of the time and out of that getting 10-12" scatter 75% of the time.

HBC does better against all forms of fliers I find. I normally run one with HBC/Melta Earth Caste Pilot array, Velocity Trackers, and Early Warning. If you're nova charged and ready, any fliers coming in within range are gonna take a serious blow.

NauticalKendall wrote:
HBC does better against all forms of fliers I find. I normally run one with HBC/Melta Earth Caste Pilot array, Velocity Trackers, and Early Warning. If you're nova charged and ready, any fliers coming in within range are gonna take a serious blow.

Thats what I have found too, the only thing is that occasionally with some bad rolling I had to take 2 HBCtides to take down 1 Night Scythe. I know that it is very situational, but it worrys me a little that if that were to happen in a tournament setting that it would maybe be... difficult to recover from when snap shooting, especially if they have 3 Flyers

sometimes yeah it fails, but truthfully it still does better with 12 shots VS the Iontides 3

For air there isnt a comparison imo. HBC is better. Even if it doesnt get the nova it can glance AV12, and with skyfire has a pretty good odd to do so. Iontide is only +1Str which barely helps and way less shots. The AP2 helps when you actually pen, but thats on a 6 lol. Far more likely to glance 1-2 times with 8 shots than pen once with 3 shots.

I just find the HBC better against vehicles all around, but i rarely need it to do so outside air since seekers/broadsides usually take care of everything my melta bomb didnt lol.

Given the fact that the one would be for hunting flyer/FMCs, and you plan on running 4, use the Farsight one w/ ECP, HBC and a buffmander. You should be able to get past the NOVA charge and get the dakka needed for its task.

Lets see,
Burst
Pro; With a SMS can make great infantry killer
More shots
Great for AA
Doesnt need to Overheat to kill alot of models
Great MC hunter
Cons:
Ap4(Or rending but needs a nova charge
If you are like me, your overheating will kill you

Ion
Pros
Ap2
dual firing mode
72in range
Infantry or tank killer
Cons
If it over heats it isnt going to get to fire whie it is unlikely, if you do it every turn at a tournament it will happen
str 7 bs3 hampers it
Fire Magnet

I use one of each in my list.

Oddly enough i never take damage from my overheat rolls on my riptides. You still get your armor save, failing 2 2+ rolls in a row is pretty damn hard. However you still lose the shot, which is the only way the Iontide sits there looking epic rather than killing things lol. If i can, i usually bump its BS to 6 so i can reroll the gets hot lol. Since im not a dick, and the rules are kinda sketchy on that topic, i roll with the usual BS rules on "twinlink" where i am now BS1 rather than BS6 if i reroll that gets hot.
Whether or not thats the way its suppose to be, no idea. Dont care either, makes sense since normal shooting does that so why wouldnt blasts.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oddly enough i never take damage from my overheat rolls on my riptides. You still get your armor save, failing 2 2+ rolls in a row is pretty damn hard. However you still lose the shot, which is the only way the Iontide sits there looking epic rather than killing things lol. If i can, i usually bump its BS to 6 so i can reroll the gets hot lol. Since im not a dick, and the rules are kinda sketchy on that topic, i roll with the usual BS rules on "twinlink" where i am now BS1 rather than BS6 if i reroll that gets hot.
Whether or not thats the way its suppose to be, no idea. Dont care either, makes sense since normal shooting does that so why wouldnt blasts.

What is your method of getting markerlights for bumping up to BS 6? Pathfinders, Skyray, etc.?

I'm starting to question the effectiveness of Bursttides for AA. Lets say you have a front armor 13 flyer come in from reserves. Lets assume that the HBC is nova charged. Then you need 4s to hit, and then 6s to not even glance, but you need the 6 so for your rend you get the extra D3 giving you the opportunity to glance or penetrate the flyer. IMO this is not that good at all, and is very risky. So why are HBCtides with EWO and VT good AA? This is for 7th edition by the way, so what do you think about Riptides in 7th? Thanks for the help!

Burstides were great with Commanders, but I fear in 7th they've lost a lot of their bite. I'd still keep 1 in the list w/ Earth Caste to clear infantry and take down skimmers/light fliers, but I actually think Broadsides are going to be better AA than the Burstide. 3 Broadsides w/ Missiles and a Commander can down most fliers in 1 turn, even without Rending or Skyfire.

Lucarikx

Thing about the Bursttide is he needs marker support now that he cant be joined by a buffmander. I never took EWO because he needs either type of support to really do anything to AV12+ vehicles reliably, and you cant get those in the intercept part of the game. Actually nothing in my army except the IA Riptide has EWO anymore, and thats a deepstrike preventative (S8 AP2 pi plate = dead deepstrikers).

I used to have a bunch of pathfinders for my marker support. Cheap, effective, scout movement gets them where i need them pretty much right off the bat. With the new skimmer jink rules though and lack of commander buffy + riptide now i need either more marks or more reliable marks. I started bringing commander buffy in a missilepod suit squad pumped with marker drones, and all my FW units have a Shas'ui with markerlight. Possible 1-2 BS increase throughout the army, and one target is just straight-up fethed with 6-8 BS5 twinlinked markerlights that are mobile and have a buffmander tanking for them lol. Hits air more reliably too since theyre rerolling those snapfires. Tad costly but ive yet to lose it without being assaulted by a fast deathstar before i could do any damage. Really awesome when i get the 3D6 Assault Move warlord trait too

Also, what flier is AV13 front outside FW?

 Lucarikx wrote:
Burstides were great with Commanders, but I fear in 7th they've lost a lot of their bite. I'd still keep 1 in the list w/ Earth Caste to clear infantry and take down skimmers/light fliers, but I actually think Broadsides are going to be better AA than the Burstide. 3 Broadsides w/ Missiles and a Commander can down most fliers in 1 turn, even without Rending or Skyfire.

Lucarikx

I too think that they have lost their bite. They way you are using them seems like a great one to me, more of a toolbox unit now, to take care of a few small things. My dilemma is that, is it worth paying that many points for something that is only taking out some infantry or lighter vehicles? Broadsides are something I wasn't really exploring until this edition. I feel like they will be taken a lot more and are really good. I like the idea of taking two squads of 3 missilesides and giving one the AA specs and the other just standard. Its great because you can abuse missile drones if you want to also, and they are scoring so you can camp them and then pump shots into people that get close. I like the ideas, thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thing about the Bursttide is he needs marker support now that he cant be joined by a buffmander. I never took EWO because he needs either type of support to really do anything to AV12+ vehicles reliably, and you cant get those in the intercept part of the game. Actually nothing in my army except the IA Riptide has EWO anymore, and thats a deepstrike preventative (S8 AP2 pi plate = dead deepstrikers).

I used to have a bunch of pathfinders for my marker support. Cheap, effective, scout movement gets them where i need them pretty much right off the bat. With the new skimmer jink rules though and lack of commander buffy + riptide now i need either more marks or more reliable marks. I started bringing commander buffy in a missilepod suit squad pumped with marker drones, and all my FW units have a Shas'ui with markerlight. Possible 1-2 BS increase throughout the army, and one target is just straight-up fethed with 6-8 BS5 twinlinked markerlights that are mobile and have a buffmander tanking for them lol. Hits air more reliably too since theyre rerolling those snapfires. Tad costly but ive yet to lose it without being assaulted by a fast deathstar before i could do any damage. Really awesome when i get the 3D6 Assault Move warlord trait too

Also, what flier is AV13 front outside FW?

I feel like marker-lights are good, but they ways of getting them are terrible. You can either take Skyrays which IMO don't have enough fire power and marker-light support to make any other unit more effective if you are trying to pump off missiles. Then you have Pathfinders. Personally I have not played with them, but from what I have seen and heard, they are like bad marines who have been kicked out and are still carrying their brotherhood banner that says, "if you want first blood, kill me" with a big arrow. The fact that they are so flimsy is absurd IMO for tau to not have much reliable Markerlight support when you need it for your army to function at all cylinders. I just don't like them because they die to fast for their influential role in the army. You could put shadowsun with them if you want to waste her though too.

Losing the buffmander RIptide combo hurts, a lot. Putting them with Broadsides that are AA is the way to go. I think that the FW models might get a little better, but they are still overpriced for things like XV9s when the best things to give them are the burst cannons. Are you suggesting not giving skyfire to the brodsides, but just the buffmander so they re-roll to hits that arent 6s?

I was just using that as an example just because like you have pointed out, it is almost non existent. I run into Night Scythes a lot and so that is what I mainly have to deal with

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I feel like marker-lights are good, but they ways of getting them are terrible. You can either take Skyrays which IMO don't have enough fire power and marker-light support to make any other unit more effective if you are trying to pump off missiles. Then you have Pathfinders. Personally I have not played with them, but from what I have seen and heard, they are like bad marines who have been kicked out and are still carrying their brotherhood banner that says, "if you want first blood, kill me" with a big arrow. The fact that they are so flimsy is absurd IMO for tau to not have much reliable Markerlight support when you need it for your army to function at all cylinders. I just don't like them because they die to fast for their influential role in the army. You could put shadowsun with them if you want to waste her though too.

I was just using that as an example just because like you have pointed out, it is almost non existent. I run into Night Scythes a lot and so that is what I mainly have to deal with

Night Scythes don't have Quantum Shielding, so they're AV 11. AFAIK, there isn't any AV 13 Flyer in the game. (for 40k)

For the markerlights... have you though about Tetras? They're quick, precise, cheap and Jink-able!

Necron fliers are the only vehicle thats actually used that does not have that shield. There are others, but theyre never used.

Necron fliers would be WAY broken if they had that shield, since they can be spammed sooooo easily even in 6th and moreso in 7th.

Tetras got a little weaker since if they jink theyre snapping their markerlights, but theyre twinlinked iirc so its not AS bad. Bigger issue is a lot of gaming groups tend to not be FW-friendly. Mine is, but i dont have any yet (more because i need the rulebook too and anything i buy easily reaches the $200 limit when i try lol). Overall i believe theyre still a very viable ML source.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I feel like marker-lights are good, but they ways of getting them are terrible. You can either take Skyrays which IMO don't have enough fire power and marker-light support to make any other unit more effective if you are trying to pump off missiles. Then you have Pathfinders. Personally I have not played with them, but from what I have seen and heard, they are like bad marines who have been kicked out and are still carrying their brotherhood banner that says, "if you want first blood, kill me" with a big arrow. The fact that they are so flimsy is absurd IMO for tau to not have much reliable Markerlight support when you need it for your army to function at all cylinders. I just don't like them because they die to fast for their influential role in the army. You could put shadowsun with them if you want to waste her though too.

I was just using that as an example just because like you have pointed out, it is almost non existent. I run into Night Scythes a lot and so that is what I mainly have to deal with

Night Scythes don't have Quantum Shielding, so they're AV 11. AFAIK, there isn't any AV 13 Flyer in the game. (for 40k)

For the markerlights... have you though about Tetras? They're quick, precise, cheap and Jink-able!

I really appreciate your post! The tetra idea is great! Especially with the +1 with disruption pods. Sounds like the Bursttide can deal with it then, but I am going to see how well Broadsides with Skyfire preform too. Apparently they are really good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Necron fliers are the only vehicle thats actually used that does not have that shield. There are others, but theyre never used.

Necron fliers would be WAY broken if they had that shield, since they can be spammed sooooo easily even in 6th and moreso in 7th.

Tetras got a little weaker since if they jink theyre snapping their markerlights, but theyre twinlinked iirc so its not AS bad. Bigger issue is a lot of gaming groups tend to not be FW-friendly. Mine is, but i dont have any yet (more because i need the rulebook too and anything i buy easily reaches the $200 limit when i try lol). Overall i believe theyre still a very viable ML source.

Thats true. To be honest, I think that overload with target priority is a great way to run Tau. Take stuff that needs to be dealt with immediate, but your opponent is also getting blasted to bits with the rest of your army. I think that the markerlights are to support for a bit, but I dont expect them to last all game. I would like to use them as a leg up and to get some early damage in etc. How do you guys usually use them?

I'd run two of each....

HBC, VT, Stim, TLFB
HBC, VT, Stim, TLFB
IA, EWO, VT, TLFB
IA, EWO, VT, TLFB

If you have FE, put the ECPA on an HBC, you won't regret it. I find the Stims are great as you Nova every single round with an HBC Riptide and it reduces your chance of Wounding yourself from 1/3 to 2/9 and gives a Riptide effectively 7.5 Wounds against enemy fire.

I loved them last edition and used a BuffCommander attatched to an ECPA HBC VT Stim TLFB Riptide to great affect even at the GT level in 6th, but this edition they are going to need serious Markerlight Support as the BuffCommander is out unless you are bringing O'Vesa.


If you want to take advantage of the BuffCommander, the only way to do it is with O'Vesa. Buffmander, O'Vessa and his Drones, MP Suits or Broadsides with target Lock, and possibly Marker Drones.

Or(My Preference) just O'Vesa, BufffCommander, and three Dual MP Suits with Target Locks. Gives TwinLinked Ignore Cover Monster/Tank Hunter O'Vesa and his drones against one target and 12 Missiles with the same against another target or two or three. When I can run dual Combined Arms or Self ally is allowed that's going to be my bread and butter unit. Can obliterate two targets a turn, ultra reliable, and is Majority T6 with two hearty IC tanks up front. It's not the O'VesaStar of 6th, but it's damned damned good still.

Two HBC Riptides and enough Markerlights to light the enemy up like a Christmas Tree will do the trick.

IMO three properly supported Riptides will trump four lightly supported Riptides. Fitting Four Supported Riptides in 2k is stretching it as they don't bring enough offense to guarantee eliminating their Objective Secured scoring.

It really is down to what you are equiping them with.

Bursttide-Velocity tracker and maybe the bs 2 overwatch. as well as smart missile systems

Iontide - Probably melta with intercepter and something else.

I would say 1-2 burst at most. Rest Iontide.