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Over the weekend, I saw a game between Black Legion CSMs and Eldar. The CSM player was using Ahriman and Cypher.

The CSM player alpha struck the Eldar. He infiltrated 5 units of Chosen with plasma guns, along with a couple of Rhinos with missile launchers. The game was over by the fourth turn, the Eldar player conceded when the Heldrakes came in from reserve.

I don't have the dataslab for Cypher. What rules allowed him to do that? Does he have a warlord trait like Master of Deception? If so, does it stack with Ahriman's or was this some special rule? The odds of actually getting 5 units infiltrated on a d3 roll is actually pretty small, I didn't think this was very reliable.

Cypher formation brings three squads of Chosen with Infiltrate USR.

Yeah, I have trouble seeing his utility in a non- CSM force.

I've considered using him to infiltrate a 50-man Guard blob. Helps that he gives them shrouded too.

Thanks, this helps much.

Does it have to be Chosen, or could it be other infantry?

I believe it's just Chosen for him, as they represent the Fallen. I believe they also get ATSKNF i think. It's not an especially hard list to counter, why not spend 36 pts on an Inquisitor with servo skulls to utterly neuter her army tactics?

You can't use Cypher to infiltrate a squad. The squad needs to have infiltrate already. It's clear in the process of deployment. People argue it in other forums but they are wrong.

On a further note, Nova rules, along with other GTs, have it clearly listed in their FAQs. Infiltrate ICs give their squads infiltrate, meaning they can outflank with them Turn2, but Turn1 normal deployment happens before infiltrate deployment. You can't deploy a blob squad in your deployment zone, then place Cypher 18" away from the enemy and expect your blob to follow.

Sorry to burst your bubble. I tried making the 4 Centurion, Coteaz, Tigurius, Cypher Infiltrate Squad a real thing, but it's not possible :( However, you can get Telion (Ultramarine Ally) and scout the squad 6" more, but that's hardly the same.

This again?

It depends on where you play. Consult your local rules lawyer as to how your scene plays this rule.

Adepticon allows it. Nova doesn't. Most locals allow it. Ask first. Rules also technically allow chaos and coteaz on the same side. Just cause the book allows it doesn't make it the "right" way.

Saythings wrote:
You can't use Cypher to infiltrate a squad. The squad needs to have infiltrate already. It's clear in the process of deployment. People argue it in other forums but they are wrong.

On a further note, Nova rules, along with other GTs, have it clearly listed in their FAQs. Infiltrate ICs give their squads infiltrate, meaning they can outflank with them Turn2, but Turn1 normal deployment happens before infiltrate deployment. You can't deploy a blob squad in your deployment zone, then place Cypher 18" away from the enemy and expect your blob to follow.

Sorry to burst your bubble. I tried making the 4 Centurion, Coteaz, Tigurius, Cypher Infiltrate Squad a real thing, but it's not possible :( However, you can get Telion (Ultramarine Ally) and scout the squad 6" more, but that's hardly the same.

Cypher might not be able to give a unit infiltrate, but if taken with his formation of chosen, the chosen get infiltrate from the formation and not cypher.

So a chaos army can take Cypher(who has infiltrate) 3 units of chosen in his formation(with infiltrate) and either huron or ahriman(master of deception, d3 units get infiltrate)

They can then infiltrate cypher, 3 units of chosen and 1-3 other units(and their dedicated transports)

average would be 1IC and 5 units. Not half bad.

In addition to cypher's fallen I would definitely take Havocs instead of chosen. They die just the same.
It would be a fun army, but probably not competitive. As said servo skulls can screw you over but you can at least outflank.

 herpguy wrote:
In addition to cypher's fallen I would definitely take Havocs instead of chosen. They die just the same.
It would be a fun army, but probably not competitive. As said servo skulls can screw you over but you can at least outflank.

I think great potential would be with using 3 units of Cyphers chosen, and a huge mob of cultists to give you some board control.

Hrm.

If I understand things properly, it would be legal to take Cypher, Ahriman and Huron together to infiltrate up to 9 units of Chosen.

Is this accurate? If so, that would be quite an assault.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Hrm.

If I understand things properly, it would be legal to take Cypher, Ahriman and Huron together to infiltrate up to 9 units of Chosen.

Is this accurate? If so, that would be quite an assault.

no

It it legal to take Cypher and either Ahriman or Huron or any chump chaos warlord(1/6 chance) and use the master of deception warlord trait.

Cypher gets you 3 units of chosen with infiltrate
The master of deception warlord trait(which huron and Ahriman have by default) lets you give d3 units infiltrate
Cypher has infiltrate

So you can get Cypher, 3 units of chosen, and d3 other units to infiltrate.

Purely chosen, getting a d3 roll of 3, you could have 6 units of chosen.

The infiltrate via master of deception extends to dedicated transports, which can get your a infiltrating land raider if you want.

Correct me if I'm wrong, taking the Chosen formation removes Cypher from your HQ slot. Don't formations stand outside the FOC?

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, taking the Chosen formation removes Cypher from your HQ slot. Don't formations stand outside the FOC?

Cypher never takes an HQ slot and can never be your warlord

He can never be your Warlord, but when taken by himself he occupies one of your HQ slots. When taken as a formation he stands outside (as do his Chosen) of the FOC.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
He can never be your Warlord, but when taken by himself he occupies one of your HQ slots. When taken as a formation he stands outside (as do his Chosen) of the FOC.

Read the data slate again, particularly the second sentence of the first full paragraph on page 37 where it says "Cypher does not take up any slots from the detachments force org. chart" which is right after the list of armies that can take him as part of their primary detachment.

Sorry, I missed that part. I shall pay more attention to things like that in future.

I've just been wondering about Cypher + 3 squads of plasma chosen + Ahrim and a guardsman blob, which you infiltrate wrapped around the enemy so slow them down in case they try to run away from your plasma.

Master of Deception works with all infantry units in your army, not just the CSM ones, right?

transport dedicated to infiltrating units instead gain outflanking usr.

Master of Deception only works on infantry squads.

That also means you cant infiltrate Helcult by extension even if there are 2 units of cultists.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Over the weekend, I saw a game between Black Legion CSMs and Eldar. The CSM player was using Ahriman and Cypher.

Black Legion doesnt make the Chosen in Cyphers data slate troops though, and they cannot take VotLW right


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm thinking of a fun 1850 list along the lines of:

Huron
Cypher
6 Flamer Chosen
7 Melta Chosen
8 Plasma Chosen
35 CC Cultists(cypher goes here)
10 Cultists(huron runs around here till he can catch up with the chosen)
10 Cultists(likely reserve)
5 MoN Spawn
Heldrake
8 MoN Bikers with 2 plasma
MoN CL with bike sigil powerfist and either daemonheart or burning brand(maybe swapt the powerfist for the bloodrinking sword if taking Crimson Slaughter)


Infiltrate Cypher with the cultist(and huron's first infiltrate goes here) for upfield board control
Put the chosen behind them infiltrating each near a target of opporutnity
If huron gives you more infiltrate, add the spawn or the bikes and CL.

Basically charge forward hope to alpha strike the enemy into oblivion. Use the spawn to tie up anything that threatens the cultists or chosen seriously. Once the culitsts are depleted, hit and run and have cypher break off and join one of the units of chosen. The bikes can run over stuff. All in all it should be pretty fun.