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I used to be a primarily 40k player, back in the day...

Until I saw the Hell Pit army list in WD310. Ghoritch sold me. I still have my original model of him. So I'd like to rewrite the rules and write a balanced army list. I'm not expecting to have nearly the amount of units in the Skaven book, but I'd like this community to get involved to help me balance it. I've begun a .pdf and have a commission artist ready to do (incredible) illustrations, and if we can solidify the rules I will be paying for these illustrations out of my own pocket. I'm that serious about this.

Once I start doing something I am incapable of half-assing it.

Here's a link to the .pdf of the original Hell Pit list:

http://ruinouspowers.com/skaven/rules/hell_pit_list.pdf

I am open to any and all suggestions/ideas/etc. But I am trying to fit within the limited fluff of what we know about Hell Pit. So we're talking some special characters, (Griskit and Scarskrex), Ghoritch, Throtlings, Wolf Rats, (I'm looking into balancing Rat Ogres or making them viable) and then adding upgrades into Mutant Rat Ogres and Augmented Rat Ogres, Rat Harpies (see Griskit's fluff), Abberations, Burrowing Behemoth (which I want to rename Tunneling Gnawbeast), and the Chimaerat.

Let's start with Ghoritch himself. In my opinion, his point cost is incredibly high for what he costs. I looked at the only counterpart I could find that he shared similarities with - and that was Throgg, King of Trolls, from the Warriors of Chaos army book. I'm looking at making him more survivable and a bit scarier in combat. If he is Throt's greatest creation, he needs to reflect it.

Initial thoughts are as follows:

Perhaps he almost acts as a BSB, but only to Clan Moulder/Hell Pit units? In other words, Say Clanrats were nearby. They wouldn't get a Ld. re-roll whereas Giant Rats/Rat Ogres would.

I'm looking into giving him SOME KIND of save. It's easily justifiable, being just as much machine as he is flesh. Maybe a 4+, or we could even give him Regenerate.

He's scary in combat, ignoring armor saves, with good WS, good Strength, 5 Attacks, and Frenzy. But if he loses that Frenzy he has Stupidity. Should we keep that for fluff purposes? Also, what do you think about giving him Killing Blow? Or maybe that's overkill?

Also, what are you guys thinking about point value for him?

After we get this solidified we will move on to Griskit, Lord of Sludge. I have some fun ideas for him.

This is just a first pass, but here are my two Warptokens:

- most of that stuff is overpriced in a big way. And some of it doesn't make sense in 8th. Flayerkin, for example. And Mainstay units, and some of the references to the main book that don't exist anymore.

- Packmasters and mixed units are a mess in the current book. Would you want to clean up that mechanic in this project, or leave that for another day?

- on to Ghoritch: yes he is very expensive. He also already acts as a min-BSB for Moulder units. And yes, we can give him some kind of save.
When it comes to anything new like this, I say: keep it as simple as possible. He ignores armour. That's neat, and it's enough. Killing Blow not required.

Warpsolution wrote:
This is just a first pass, but here are my two Warptokens:

- most of that stuff is overpriced in a big way. And some of it doesn't make sense in 8th. Flayerkin, for example. And Mainstay units, and some of the references to the main book that don't exist anymore.

- Packmasters and mixed units are a mess in the current book. Would you want to clean up that mechanic in this project, or leave that for another day?

- on to Ghoritch: yes he is very expensive. He also already acts as a min-BSB for Moulder units. And yes, we can give him some kind of save.
When it comes to anything new like this, I say: keep it as simple as possible. He ignores armour. That's neat, and it's enough. Killing Blow not required.

Hey, my first reply. Awesome. Thanks for your input, Warp.

I felt the same way about the costs. But I'm predisposed to Skaven so I don't want to make them so dirt cheap that it's unfair.

I also don't see much use for Flayerkin and their Human Chains. Unsure about them, or a place that they might have. I thought about giving them a Gutter Runners-type role, justified lore-wise that they climb cliffs, etc. with their "climbing claws" to attack from unexpected angles. Skirmishing, killing blow ambushers might be pretty nasty. They'd be fun to model too.

I wouldn't mind fixing the Packmasters mechanic, for the sake of being thorough. Thoughts on that?

As of right now I have Ghoritch's effective bubble range increased from 6" to 12." I'll skip Killing Blow and give him a save. Probably a 4+, taking into account the size of his claws. What do you think about him having Regenerate?

- I'd compare Rat Ogres to Trolls. Ld4 and Stupid is pretty rough. But Ld5 and Frenzy or Stupid isn't much better, and you're trading +1A and +2I for Regeneration (4+), which is a poor deal. And Trolls are 5pts less than the current pricing.
Also, Armoured/Mutated/Augment Rat Ogres do not need to be separate units. Let's make them model-by-model upgrade choices. Like Ogre Maneaters.

- Flayerkin could be a Gutter Runner/Censer Bearer hybrid. Frenzy, Poison and Hatred.

- Packmasters ought to be like Handlers. By which I mean, we ignore them. No randomizing hits. No dividing attacks and split profiles.
And Master Moulders can just be upgrades to the unit; give them a boost to Ld and the ability to purchase augmentations/mutations.

- for Ghoritch, I'd say...2+ armour and MR2 or something like that. People come up with Special Characters all the time, and they all have a 4+ Ward or Regeneration. Let's break that trend, a little.
Besides, with his WS, S, and A, plus ignoring armour...his opponents won't last terribly long anyway.
We'll take the Bone-breaker Rat Ogre stat line and give it a boost.
For that, I'd look to the costs of a Warlord on a Bone-breaker, and probably the Ogre Tyrant.

And this is why I wanted input from the community.

Surprisingly, I haven't gotten any hits on Underempire yet.

I really like the idea of model-by-model Rat Ogre upgrade choices like Maneaters. A big mixed bag, customizable and scary unit. I like that a lot. Definitely going in. And the Warpfire Thrower upgrade for Augmented Ogres? Thoughts on that?

I'm thinking of making Rat Ogres cost 30pts. stock, before upgrades. Too low?

I think I'd prefer to keep Killing Blow over Poison on the Flayerkin, seems to me as though something with giant climbing claws for hands would be more apt to lop a head off. Though, the claws would probably be filthy, so Poison makes sense too. Hmm.

I like the Handlers idea too. Simple.

I was considering making Master Moulders the equivalent of say, a Plague Priest. Back in the day Harbingers of Mutation were wizards that knew the Vermintide spell. What do you think about making Master Moulders be Level 1 stock, and Level 2 upgrade option, (Lore of Ruin) with access to Moulder items? I'm even kicking around the idea of them being able to exchange one spell for Death Frenzy - representing their ability to properly goad their beasts into a murderous rampage. Plus the unit takes Wounds with that spell so it makes sense there too. Skaven-y.

I'll take a 2+ save on Ghoritch any day of the week. 105 Skavenslaves a fair price for that? Also, do we keep the "Lose Frenzy become Stupid" rule?

- the way the Warpfire Thrower works in the current book, it never misfires. Which is crazy.
We can make it a S4 flaming breath weapon, 1+ wound = panic, Warpstone Weapon. That way, it's one use only, but still reliable in that it can't misfire and that you could use it in combat (because they'll be in combat. They're Rat Ogres), and it won't instantly melt face like 2d6 S5 D3 Wounds would.

30pt Rat Ogres. Hm. Trolls are 35pts. So for -5pts, you get Frenzy, +2I, +1Ld.
If we make Packmasters non-existant, we could represent their presence with +2Ld, for Ld6 Rat Ogres.
Frenzy and Stupid...how does that work again? And then, of course, they don't have Regeneration or Troll Vomit.

I'd say that I'd still rather have Trolls, but...5pts cheaper for Frenzy, +2I, +3 Ld, and no Regen or Vomit? Not sure. It's near the mark, at least...

- my idea with the Flayerkin would be to create a whole new fluff for them, so whatever rules work.

- If you want magic for Master Moulders and Harbingers, look to Warrior Priests. Just pick n' choose the bound spells. And re-vamp Vermintide.

- Personally, I don't think the fluff for Ghoritch justifies either Frenzy or Stupidity. He's a savage brute, true. But he's also cunning.

Warpsolution wrote:
- the way the Warpfire Thrower works in the current book, it never misfires. Which is crazy.
We can make it a S4 flaming breath weapon, 1+ wound = panic, Warpstone Weapon. That way, it's one use only, but still reliable in that it can't misfire and that you could use it in combat (because they'll be in combat. They're Rat Ogres), and it won't instantly melt face like 2d6 S5 D3 Wounds would.

I like that. Point value for that? Keep it at 40 pts.? Or is that too high?

Warpsolution wrote:
- 30pt Rat Ogres. Hm. Trolls are 35pts. So for -5pts, you get Frenzy, +2I, +1Ld.
If we make Packmasters non-existant, we could represent their presence with +2Ld, for Ld6 Rat Ogres.
Frenzy and Stupid...how does that work again? And then, of course, they don't have Regeneration or Troll Vomit.

I think the way Frenzy and Stupid works is they'd have to take two Leadership tests at the beginning of every turn. One to resist Frenzy (if enemies are in range) and one to resist Stupidity. Bad plan. Do you think Ld6 Rat Ogres would be an issue? On average rolls they're going to fail that test regularly. So they'd be Frenzy-baited into oblivion. I personally think Rat Ogres need some kind of stock save, even if it's just a 6+ for "Thick Skin" or whatever. I wonder if the bases are big enough to model a Packmaster on there with them, and give them the Monsters and Handlers rule.

Warpsolution wrote:
- I'd say that I'd still rather have Trolls, but...5pts cheaper for Frenzy, +2I, +3 Ld, and no Regen or Vomit? Not sure. It's near the mark, at least...

Remember, these are stock Rat Ogres. Before paying for the Mutant or Augmented upgrades.

Warpsolution wrote:
- my idea with the Flayerkin would be to create a whole new fluff for them, so whatever rules work.

I like that idea. Ambushers on them or no? Frenzy, Hatred, Killing Blow, Ambushers? Maybe 15 pts. apiece? Close to Gutter Runners.

Warpsolution wrote:
- If you want magic for Master Moulders and Harbingers, look to Warrior Priests. Just pick n' choose the bound spells. And re-vamp Vermintide.

Maybe Vermintide could work like the Banner of the Underempire, instead of a large template? Just a good amount of S2 hits?

Warpsolution wrote:
- Personally, I don't think the fluff for Ghoritch justifies either Frenzy or Stupidity. He's a savage brute, true. But he's also cunning.

I can understand Frenzy, as he's still got the mind of a Khorne Berserker. Stupidity though, I'm not so sure of. So right now we've got him as is, same statline, but with a 2+ AS and MR2. 200-210 pts. How about giving him half of Throt's special rule - If Ghoritch is the leader, you can take one unit of Rat Ogres as a Core choice?

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
I like that. Point value for that? Keep it at 40 pts.? Or is that too high?

30pts. It's a one-use, watered-down Warpfire Thrower. So it can cost just under half.

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
Do you think Ld6 Rat Ogres would be an issue? On average rolls they're going to fail that test regularly. So they'd be Frenzy-baited into oblivion.

Except, as they currently are, they're Ld5. You keep them by your General, or your hope for the best.

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
I personally think Rat Ogres need some kind of stock save, even if it's just a 6+ for "Thick Skin" or whatever.

No. They're T4 and W3. Keep 'em cheap, keep 'em simple.

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
I wonder if the bases are big enough to model a Packmaster on there with them, and give them the Monsters and Handlers rule.

That's what I was thinking.
But handlers are separate models. The first Rat Ogre gets one handler. The fourth gets another, and the sixth. 2:1.

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
Remember, these are stock Rat Ogres. Before paying for the Mutant or Augmented upgrades.

Oh, I am well aware. I'm comparing them to trolls. Take a troll, add 2I, 1Ld, and Frenzy, and then drop Vomit and Regen, and you've got a Rat Ogre...plus handlers.

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
Maybe Vermintide could work like the Banner of the Underempire, instead of a large template? Just a good amount of S2 hits?

Well...that's basically what Vermintide basically does.
I want Deathfrenzy, something to add a little defense (Scaly Skin, Toughness, or Regen), and movement spell. That last one can be Vermintide.

 TheBrandedOne wrote:
I can understand Frenzy, as he's still got the mind of a Khorne Berserker. Stupidity though, I'm not so sure of. So right now we've got him as is, same statline, but with a 2+ AS and MR2. 200-210 pts. How about giving him half of Throt's special rule - If Ghoritch is the leader, you can take one unit of Rat Ogres as a Core choice?

I guess Stupidity is supposed to represent when his mind occasionally reels from the fact that it's now in a Rat Ogre.
And yeah, I'd say he better get one unit of Rat Ogres as Core. Since that's the only unit he can get a Look Out, Sir! roll in.

Some ideas for Rat Ogre upgrades:

- heavy armour. 6pts/model
- +1M and Swift Stride. 3pts/model
- Armour Piercing and Warpstone Weapons. 5pts/model

Master-bred Rat Ogres 65pts
Unit Size: 1+
WS4 BS3 S5 T4 A4 W3 I5 Ld5
Equipment: heavy armour
Special Rules: Armour Piercing, Frenzy, Regeneration, Stubborn, Stupidity, Warpstone Weapons

Warpfire Projector: S4 flaming Warpstone Weapon breath weapon- 30pts
Warp-Claws: ignore armour saves- 25pts
Cavernous Maw: Killing Blow- 25pts
Tentacled Horror: Random Attacks 2D6- 35pts

Or something. I'd be a bit nervous of a unit of two Master-breds laying down 2D6+6 S5 attacks and 2d6 S4 auto-hits in one around of combat, but then again, that would cost 195pts for a 6-wound unit.

Just musings, for now.

I like you, Warp. I think you and me are gonna get along just fine. Like your custom HPA by the way.

Warpsolution wrote:
30pts. It's a one-use, watered-down Warpfire Thrower. So it can cost just under half.

Done. I had settled on that price anyways, actually. I'm compiling the rules as we speak in a Word document for now.

Warpsolution wrote:
Except, as they currently are, they're Ld5. You keep them by your General, or your hope for the best.

Anything else in the game Ld5 with Frenzy? I can't think of anything. Gives them a kind of unique feel, I think. Barely checked beasts. I like that vibe.

On a related note, do you think the list should be set up with Ghoritch as a compulsory? There's room in the fluff for a couple more Master Moulders that might be fun to write rules for - I have two specific named and a third potential. Though I'm not sure if that's too many characters for such a small list. I like the idea of Griskit, lord of the sludge, and his female rat-harpies. Then there's Scarskrex, hybridizing serpents. (Maybe gives a unit of Throtlings/Giant Rats Poison?] Just shooting from the hip there, but.

Warpsolution wrote:
That's what I was thinking. But handlers are separate models. The first Rat Ogre gets one handler. The fourth gets another, and the sixth. 2:1.

Done. So they are separate models but are treated as handlers? Just contributing Attacks, really.

Warpsolution wrote:
Well...that's basically what Vermintide basically does. I want Deathfrenzy, something to add a little defense (Scaly Skin, Toughness, or Regen), and movement spell. That last one can be Vermintide.

Okay, again just throwing an idea out there randomly. What about some kind of new unit, a mobile laboratory? A "Flesh Distillery" or "Skin Forge". Kind of like a Screaming Bell, but it can pass out buffs "mutations" to nearby units, obviously with a chance of things going horribly wrong. Kind of begs for a Rogrestar list, but the unit would be very expensive, volatile, and fun.

Warpsolution wrote:
And yeah, I'd say he better get one unit of Rat Ogres as Core. Since that's the only unit he can get a Look Out, Sir! roll in.

I like it. Done.

Warpsolution wrote:


Some ideas for Rat Ogre upgrades:

- heavy armour. 6pts/model
- +1M and Swift Stride. 3pts/model
- Armour Piercing and Warpstone Weapons. 5pts/model

Master-bred Rat Ogres 65pts
Unit Size: 1+
WS4 BS3 S5 T4 A4 W3 I5 Ld5
Equipment: heavy armour
Special Rules: Armour Piercing, Frenzy, Regeneration, Stubborn, Stupidity, Warpstone Weapons

Warpfire Projector: S4 flaming Warpstone Weapon breath weapon- 30pts
Warp-Claws: ignore armour saves- 25pts
Cavernous Maw: Killing Blow- 25pts
Tentacled Horror: Random Attacks 2D6- 35pts

Or something. I'd be a bit nervous of a unit of two Master-breds laying down 2D6+6 S5 attacks and 2d6 S4 auto-hits in one around of combat, but then again, that would cost 195pts for a 6-wound unit.

Just musings, for now.

Not bad. What do you think about the original mutations? I like the Brain Transplant one, gives a possibility to get some faster Rogres, in-your-face kind of speed Skaven aren't usually capable of. Swifstride Rat Ogres with WS4 and Ld7 could be relatively safe away from the general, great for swift flanks too. Trollblood I like too. I don't like the names like "Powerhouses", "Resilient", they always sounded too generic.

Right now I have Augmented Rat Ogres with a stock 5+ save, +1Str. and -1I, unable to take any additional upgrades beyond the Warpfire Thrower. I kind of see them as being meant for high-toughness or high-armor save targets, which I feel was their intent according to the fluff. Do you like that?

Any thoughts on the point value to increase Rat Ogres to Augmented or Mutant, respectively?

Here are more musings:

Maybe some Rat Ogre upgrade that gives Impact Hits?
Extra Extremities isn't bad. +1A.

Though if we have too many options it gets messy and unecessary.

Keep in mind that as a breathe weapon, you can march and fire it. That might be too good for 30 points. March out on the flank and then roast a whole unit.

As for the units, I would keep the upgrades the same for the whole unit, not individual rats.

Making Pack Masters just handlers is the best way to go. Having the master moulder be a handler with S4 A2, and open up upgrade options is the way to go. I would just spell out that the pack masters count as handlers for the whole unit, so you don't have the confusion that the salamanders/razordons have.
30 points for stock rat ogre seems good. It's init +2 and +1 S over a normal ogre, but doesn't get impact hits and has frenzy/stupidity issues.

Flayer Kin should have creeping assault and wallcrawler. That would let them ignore obstacles, and move over buildings. I'd go with 2 attacks + frenzy and armorpiercing (killing blow seems too good for the whole unit). I'd make the unit S4. Maybe add taskmasters to the unit, giving the unit strength in numbers while the handlers are still alive.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Keep in mind that as a breathe weapon, you can march and fire it. That might be too good for 30 points. March out on the flank and then roast a whole unit.

What do you think is a fair cost?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
As for the units, I would keep the upgrades the same for the whole unit, not individual rats.

I had it that way originally. I had each fitting into a certain role - Rat Ogres are standard, Augmented Rat Ogres were for high-T and good armor save models, and Mutant Rat Ogres were more customizable to fill a specific role. I like the idea of making a mixed unit like Maneaters, representing a modge podge of beasts in one unit, but the problem is that the strength of Maneaters lies not with different models having different weapons, but the way they synergize with the selectable abilities. Sniper, poison, with a brace of ogre pistols, etc. With a mix of Rat Ogres, the synergy isn't there but it makes sense from a fluff perspective. Any input Matt?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Making Pack Masters just handlers is the best way to go. Having the master moulder be a handler with S4 A2, and open up upgrade options is the way to go. I would just spell out that the pack masters count as handlers for the whole unit, so you don't have the confusion that the salamanders/razordons have.
30 points for stock rat ogre seems good. It's init +2 and +1 S over a normal ogre, but doesn't get impact hits and has frenzy/stupidity issues.

I like the simplicity of Packmasters, this is working out nicely. What are your thoughts on Master Moulders getting magic? I kind of see Harbingers of Mutations as Warlock Engineers, cheap heroes with a Level 1 magic upgrade but nothing game-breaking. Warlock Engineers substitute one spell for Warp Lightning, which is fluffy and decent - I had Harbingers being able to swap for Vermintide and Master Moulders being able to swap for Death Frenzy. Moulders also had a level 2 upgrade option.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Flayer Kin should have creeping assault and wallcrawler. That would let them ignore obstacles, and move over buildings. I'd go with 2 attacks + frenzy and armorpiercing (killing blow seems too good for the whole unit). I'd make the unit S4. Maybe add taskmasters to the unit, giving the unit strength in numbers while the handlers are still alive.

I think Flayerkin aren't beasts like Rat Ogres or Giant Rats. I think they were supposed to be amalgamations of a Chaos Marauder and Clanrat, with bladed hands. Makes them more independent, not needing handlers but instead being able to operate independently. So you don't like the idea of them being Ambushers?

I have some interesting thoughts on Throtlings. Right now I have them priced the same as Giant Rats, but they lose the Wave of Rats rule, gain Fear and Hatred (representing them loathing all life) and Unstable (representing them throwing themselves on the enemy blades in "sobbing fits of jealousy and self-loathing".) Anyone have thoughts on that?

So...I wrote all of this. And then noticed that the thread was a bit old. So I was going to just send it in a PM, but my computer decided that I should post it anyway. Oops.

- for the Warpfire Projector upgrade, I'd just add "cannot use in a turn the model marched". Trying to figure out the cost is tricky, otherwise, and would probably fall into the trap of "it's good, so it's expensive, but it's so expensive, no one takes it".

- I just love the idea of a mix n' match unit of Rat Ogres.
My first thoughts on this, though, was to allow any unit with a Master Moulder to purchase an upgrade.
I thought it'd be neat to allow units of Giant Rats the same option (different/water-down versions of the mutations, of course), and to have such units count towards minimum Core.

- Moulder magic seems about right. Though Vermintide is still just an awful spell. I'd make it more like Vahl's Danse, from the Lore of Vampires.

- Flayerkin are...weird. They're just too specific for the whole book. Mutated, semi-sentient humans crossed with rats certainly sounds like a Moulder-thing. But so does a dragon with warp-forged armour and a Master Moulder sitting inside it's hollowed-out skull, operating the thing like a giant, flying, fire-breathing puppet.
My point is, there needs to be a cut-off point for the primary book.
You want a fast, independent unit? I'd look to Wolf Rats for ideas. M7+, S4, maybe T4. Maybe with a special ability, or the possibility to buy a mutation or two. Like a cross between Sabretusks and Chaos Warhounds.

For Throtlings, make that an upgrade for Giant Rats. Just keep it simple. Like, they gain Hatred. Because, hey, when you're a mutated rat the size of a dog, you might be a little bitter about all those experiments. When someone lops off your head and, for some reason, stitches on a human one, well, that would just ruin your day.

Warpsolution wrote:


For Throtlings, make that an upgrade for Giant Rats. Just keep it simple. Like, they gain Hatred. Because, hey, when you're a mutated rat the size of a dog, you might be a little bitter about all those experiments. When someone lops off your head and, for some reason, stitches on a human one, well, that would just ruin your day.

I agree if someone chopped off my head and replaced it with a human one i would be upset.

I really like all the ideas being thrown around here the huge customizable unit really feels like something the skaven would do. Moulders would each outfit their ogres in certain ways in order to prove that they're the best sort of like how people add aftermarket parts to cars.

It's awesome that this thread is getting some attention!

I kicked around the idea of Throtlings having Hatred and Unstable, kind of representing them losing combat and throwing themselves on the enemy's blades to end their tortured and pitiful lives. Any thoughts on this?

Also the general consensus is Rat Ogres with mixed weapons, like Ogre Maneaters? I'd like to include Augmented, with an armor save and those big snippy claws. Maybe count them as a Great Weapon?

This is the kind of hobby gold I love. I just wish more people would be down to play and use armies like these

@TheBrandedOne:

- Again, keep it simple. I don't see how Throtlings need to be their own unit. If they perform like Giant Rats, just use Giant Rats. And offer some mutations. Like...this?

Any unit of Giant Rats that contains a Master Moulder counts toward your minimum Core. In addition, the unit may purchase one of the following upgrades:

- Whipped and Starved: +1pt/model*
These poor beasts have been deprived of nourishment and tortured endlessly, driving them to the brink of madness. Such creatures are desperate to close with the foe, as much to escape their master's whips as to sink their fangs into the foe.
Giant Rats (and Packmasters in a unit with this upgrade) with this upgrade gain +1M and the Swiftstride special rule.

- Skryre Augmentations: +1pt/model*
Gleaming blades and whirling drills, driven by warp-boilers from Clan Skryre's forges, are sewn and riveted to the pack, allowing them to shear through steel plate with crackling black-and-green weaponry.
Giant Rats with this upgrade gain the Armour Piercing and Magical Attacks special rules.

- Plague-Riddled: +2pts/model*
Clan Moulder often feeds the rotting, pus-filled offal of Clan Pestilen's cauldrons to their breeding stock. Most of them die in mewling agony, but the heartiest survive, becoming living cultures of disease and filth.
Giant Rats with this upgrade gain the Poisoned Attacks special rule.

- Warp-Enhanced Metabolism: +2pts/model*
Clan Moulder is always injecting growth serum into their test subjects, or exposing them to waves of raw warp-energy. Though the breeders claim to be pursuing this end or that, the truth is often much simpler: they enjoy doing it.
Giant Rats with this upgrade gain the Regeneration (5+) special rule.

*only increase the cost of Giant Rats by this amount, not Packmasters.

I think the above could also be applied to Rat Ogres. With different point values, of course.

Maneaters have mixed weapons, but they get to pick two special rules that apply to the whole unit. Why not...do...exactly that? Weapon choices could be:

- great weapon (+6pts)
- extra hand weapon (+6pts)
- Warlock Augmented Weapon (+20pts)
--as the magic weapon, +1S +1A
- Warp-Claws (+30pts)
--Killing Blow
- Warpfire Projector (+35pts*)
--as described above

Special Rules: pick any two of the following- Armour Piercing, Poisoned Attacks, Scaly Skin (5+), Strider (any one), Swift Stride, Regeneration (5+)

Or something like that. Obviously, combining the Master Moulder = mutations system with the Rateater (Manogre?) one would produce some redundancy, so it'd need to be refined.
Oh, and those mix n' match Rat Ogres should be Rare, like Maneaters. They should also start out a little better, and cost a little more. Something like 45pts/model for a unit of Master-bred Rat Ogres.