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Ok so there is a FW friendly tournament coming up, should be pretty competitive. They have nerfed 2++ rerollable invulns and covers to a 2++/4++. No LoW will be allowed. I may have missed out other house rules but if I remember them I'll post them.

HQ
Commissar Yarrick
CCS w. Kurov's Aquila (warlord)
3x ML2 psykers
Priest w. autogun

Troops
PCS w. 1x sniper
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad w. Lascannon
50 conscripts
3x sabre lascannons w. 3 extra crew
3x sabre lascannons w. 3 extra crew
3x sabre lascannons w. 3 extra crew

Vet squad w. lascannon and 3x snipers

Heavy Support
3x Thudd Guns
3x Thudd Guns

Inquisitor w. ML1 (hammerhand or div, depending on match-up), 3x servo skulls, rad grenades

Skyshield

Now I have 25 points left, so I was thinking: priest, or psychotrokes/liber heresius and camo on vets?

Tactics are skyshield sits in corner with either Thudds or Sabres on top (depends which are more useful against my opponent) while the others go underneath, all babysat by CCS. Conscripts bubble-wrap against combat armies, or march forward against shooty armies. Psykers distributed depending on powers, but Yarrick, priest and inquis almost always with conscripts, along with any psykers that get forewarning or the full-BS overwatch one.

Thoughts on the list or tactics?
Criticisms greatly welcome.
Also, how would you attempt to beat this with your list?

It's pretty good. The Snipervet squad feels awkward, since snipers are far better as Ratlings. I can tell you're squeezing in that second troop choice though.

I honestly think you could drop the 150 points of conscripts and take another Vet squad. Use your infantry squads for the conscripts' purpose if you need. Then your Vets could use something useful like plasma.

I think Wyverns are superior to Thudd Guns. They're a few extra points, but you get twin-linked, shred, ignores cover and barrage.

The Skyshield feels like a lot of points for what could just be camo netting or something. Do your local tournaments not use sufficient terrain to provide cover?

Do you need ML2 on your psykers? I did it for a while, but I dislike the uncertainty of powers. I dropped 'em to ML1 and just take prescience all the time.

As far as beating your list, I think I'd have a good shot. Highlights of my list include 2 Plasmavets with camo, 2 Melta-mechavets, 2 psykers, 2 Executioners, 2 Wyverns, 2 Hydras, and allied Tempestus (Command and 2 Scions, with all melta). Here's the full list.

First target would be those lascannons with Executioners, Hydras and plasmavets. If I can get rid of those, Yarrick will be the only threat to my Russes. Wyverns would have a field day with the conscripts (broad spacing would be a good tactic against anyone with blasts). If those don't present good target saturation (or depending on objectives), I could target the regular infantry squads instead.

Turn two I should see two Tempestus squads to fire melta into your Thudd Guns. I can probably use my vets to run interference on any remaining conscripts, and use Hydras and Russes to pick off AV10.

All in all, I think I'd stand better than average odds of crippling enough of your list early and mopping the rest up late game. A lot rides on getting rid of enough lascannons to keep my tanks and artillery alive.

There were a lot of points in here, so I'm gonna take them one at a time

 plus1jeremy wrote:
It's pretty good. The Snipervet squad feels awkward, since snipers are far better as Ratlings. I can tell you're squeezing in that second troop choice though.

It is just there to be another troop choice, not anything else really.

I honestly think you could drop the 150 points of conscripts and take another Vet squad. Use your infantry squads for the conscripts' purpose if you need. Then your Vets could use something useful like plasma.

the conscripts are pivotal to the list IMO. They provide a lot of ablative wounds, and enough bodies to completely bubble wrap my guys on the shield against FMC or other combat armies.

I think Wyverns are superior to Thudd Guns. They're a few extra points, but you get twin-linked, shred, ignores cover and barrage.

I disagree. I get all of those things, from preferred enemy or orders, along with massively increased durability, and saved points.

The Skyshield feels like a lot of points for what could just be camo netting or something. Do your local tournaments not use sufficient terrain to provide cover?

it's more for the guarantee, the invuln to help against ignores cover, and the 3+ cover save.

Do you need ML2 on your psykers? I did it for a while, but I dislike the uncertainty of powers. I dropped 'em to ML1 and just take prescience all the time.

Oh yeah I did forget a house rule. The tournament (no idea why) is doing psychic powers as you roll all dice for a psyker at the same time, then distribute the rolls across tables as you please, and you can count a double as any number.
Therefore I'm not going for prescience, I'm going for things like 4+ invuln, misfortune, endurance, enfeeble etc.

As far as beating your list, I think I'd have a good shot. Highlights of my list include 2 Plasmavets with camo, 2 Melta-mechavets, 2 psykers, 2 Executioners, 2 Wyverns, 2 Hydras, and allied Tempestus (Command and 2 Scions, with all melta). Here's the full list.

First target would be those lascannons with Executioners, Hydras and plasmavets. If I can get rid of those, Yarrick will be the only threat to my Russes. Wyverns would have a field day with the conscripts (broad spacing would be a good tactic against anyone with blasts). If those don't present good target saturation (or depending on objectives), I could target the regular infantry squads instead.

Turn two I should see two Tempestus squads to fire melta into your Thudd Guns. I can probably use my vets to run interference on any remaining conscripts, and use Hydras and Russes to pick off AV10.

All in all, I think I'd stand better than average odds of crippling enough of your list early and mopping the rest up late game. A lot rides on getting rid of enough lascannons to keep my tanks and artillery alive.

I think you underestimate artillery...
The lascannons have 12 T7 wounds in each unit, which you can't kill easily with plasma. Hydras do diddly squat to ground targets so they're irrelevant.
Melta from tempestus won't do anything to T7 thudds, with 21 wounds per unit.
So I can basically sit, near impervious, as my artillery and sabres annihilate your army, while you just murder conscripts.

195 points of wyverns has better dakka than 200 points for 3 thudds and a psyker for prescience. That being said 9 t7 guardsmen and 6 wounds of t7 3+ save artillery can takes a massive amount of firepower to kill while 3 open top tanks at 12/10/10 are very easy to kill.

Thudd guns will make tau players cry when 18 ignore cover s7 ap4 hits only drops 3 crew and 1 gun/50 points of thudd gun.

My only advice is 15 for the regimental standard and some melta bombs for death or glory.

1 failed break test on ld9 for an artillery unit will result in the guns being destroyed and proably also result in the psyker running off the board with the squad. LD9 is solid, but it's not rock solid when a break test costs so much. Squads outside Yarik's bubble need the reroll.

i'm not sure how the TO does tank shock v immobile artillery but raw is the guns can't move, and if they don't move out of the tank's way they are removed from play. Any mech player that knows that will advance every tank 18" forward to tank shock turn 2. Wave serpents are tanks. You need to be able to severely punish tanks that end the turn 12" from your artillery.

the TM will just murder the T3 crew. and boom your thudds and sabers are dead.

schadenfreude wrote:195 points of wyverns has better dakka than 200 points for 3 thudds and a psyker for prescience. That being said 9 t7 guardsmen and 6 wounds of t7 3+ save artillery can takes a massive amount of firepower to kill while 3 open top tanks at 12/10/10 are very easy to kill.

You make good points, except it's worth pointing out that I don't need the primaris: my CCS is providing preferred enemy for my sabres and thudds.

Thudd guns will make tau players cry when 18 ignore cover s7 ap4 hits only drops 3 crew and 1 gun/50 points of thudd gun.

Indeed.

My only advice is 15 for the regimental standard and some melta bombs for death or glory.

Would I be better just taking Yarrick as my warlord so I needn't worry about the fleeing? Seems like a better use of points?

1 failed break test on ld9 for an artillery unit will result in the guns being destroyed and proably also result in the psyker running off the board with the squad. LD9 is solid, but it's not rock solid when a break test costs so much. Squads outside Yarik's bubble need the reroll.

Seeing as I'm mostly castling, Yarrick's bubble should be enough?

i'm not sure how the TO does tank shock v immobile artillery but raw is the guns can't move, and if they don't move out of the tank's way they are removed from play. Any mech player that knows that will advance every tank 18" forward to tank shock turn 2. Wave serpents are tanks. You need to be able to severely punish tanks that end the turn 12" from your artillery.

With 9 twin-linked tank hunting / ignoring cover lascannons, as well as thudds against <AV12 targets, I'm not overly worried about tank shock? While complete serpent spam might get close enough, I can then charge with Yarrick, or multi-charge with hammerhanded conscripts and take them all out? Do you think this is enough? What armies could leave enough tanks close enough to my army and survive?

brochtree wrote: the TM will just murder the T3 crew. and boom your thudds and sabers are dead.

I'm unsure what you mean by this? In order for them to "be" T3, you have to be in combat. To do that, you have to get through my entire army.>

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I think you underestimate artillery...
The lascannons have 12 T7 wounds in each unit, which you can't kill easily with plasma. Hydras do diddly squat to ground targets so they're irrelevant.
Melta from tempestus won't do anything to T7 thudds, with 21 wounds per unit.
So I can basically sit, near impervious, as my artillery and sabres annihilate your army, while you just murder conscripts.

Are they T7 now, instead of AV10? I must have been looking at old rules or something. That is substantially better.

 plus1jeremy wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
I think you underestimate artillery...
The lascannons have 12 T7 wounds in each unit, which you can't kill easily with plasma. Hydras do diddly squat to ground targets so they're irrelevant.
Melta from tempestus won't do anything to T7 thudds, with 21 wounds per unit.
So I can basically sit, near impervious, as my artillery and sabres annihilate your army, while you just murder conscripts.

Are they T7 now, instead of AV10? I must have been looking at old rules or something. That is substantially better.

Yeah, they're very, very, very good for 50ppm

If you're castled into 1 location then Yarrick alone is fine as long as he is the warlord. How are objectives deployed? A good example is with BAO style scouring missions each player places 1 objective in their deployment zone, the opponent's deployment zone, and no man's land. The weakness of a single castle doctrine is if objectives are scattered on both ends of your deployment zone. There is also the risk of meeting another list with a lot of blasts such as deathstrikes hiding out of view behind terrain or earthshaker carriages. Being castled up in 1 location is usually best, but having the option to castle up in 2 opposite table corners is an option I like to keep open.

I'm not sure about PE. The sabers are already TL so they don't reroll 1s to hit, and the thudds use scatter dice so they don't get reroll 1s to hit.

 schadenfreude wrote:
If you're castled into 1 location then Yarrick alone is fine as long as he is the warlord. How are objectives deployed? A good example is with BAO style scouring missions each player places 1 objective in their deployment zone, the opponent's deployment zone, and no man's land. The weakness of a single castle doctrine is if objectives are scattered on both ends of your deployment zone. There is also the risk of meeting another list with a lot of blasts such as deathstrikes hiding out of view behind terrain or earthshaker carriages. Being castled up in 1 location is usually best, but having the option to castle up in 2 opposite table corners is an option I like to keep open.

Objectives are one primary mission (the winner of which gets 4VP), one secondary (3VP), and First Blood, StW and linebreaker for 1VP each. Objectives are placed by each person, so I can guarantee myself at least two objectives in my castle. If need be, I can split the sabres off from the castle, as they need the buffs less, and are scoring.

I'm not sure about PE. The sabers are already TL so they don't reroll 1s to hit, and the thudds use scatter dice so they don't get reroll 1s to hit.

The TO has ruled in favour of blasts getting rerolls from PE (which I agree with, and not just because I play AM! ).
And PE helps the sabres deal with (F)MCs plus they benefit from tank/monster hunter and ignore cover orders.

I too am going to this tournament, and due to the lack of fw models (and no desire to own them) feel that I will be at a disadvantage to lists that use them such as these, especially thudd guns they mess my list up! Anyway, I thought I would use the weird rolling for psychic powers to my advantage and run my Beastpack list I have been working on.

This is the list I am bringing along:

HQ - Eldrad
HQ - Farseer w/Jetbike, Shard of Anaris

Troops - 3x Eldar Jetbikes
Troops - 3x Eldar Jetbikes
Troops - 3x Eldar Jetbikes
Troops - 3x Eldar Jetbikes

Fast Attack - 10x Warp Spiders, Exarch
Fast Attack - 6x Swooping Hawks

Heavy Support - Wraithknight
Heavy Support - Wraithknight

HQ - Baron Sathoynx

Troops - 5x Kabalite Warriors

Fast Attack - Beastpack w/5x Beastmasters and 25x Khymerae

*It is a powerful list no doubt and against most opponents it is a real struggle for them to deal with but I do not think I will be able to effectively deal with 6 Thudd Guns plus a load of lasgun fire in overwatch :(

What would you do if you were running my army against the above list?

@skyfire
My advice to you is simple - hide your troops under ruins / in reserves, and then kill my scoring units at all costs.
I can't think of any feasible way of neutering the thudds, so really it's your only option.