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When shooting at squadrons you resolve each hit one at a time against the closest vehicle. Once it's wrecked or explodes you move onto the next. Since it's based on hits and not distributed after AP is rolled I assume range and LoS matter?

Example 1:
I have 3 hellhounds. An enemy squad fires 4 melta guns at them and they all hit.
The first tank is within 6" so the shot gets double dice for AP and it explodes.
The second tank is not within 6" but still within 12" so only 1D6 for AP? Or would it still be 2D6 because the initial tank was within 6"?
The third tank is outside of 12" so I assume the other two melta shots are ignored as there are no more models in range? Or would it still be hit, and have 2D6 for AP, because of the initial target?

Example 2:
4 lascannons fire at the same squadron.
All 4 hit and the first two shots destroy the first two tanks but the third is behind a building and completely out of LoS.
Can the hits be applied to the "next closest vehicle" even though it's out of LoS? Or would they be ignored?

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In assault it seems to be different since there is no maximum range for wounds to be allocated (but are hits against vehicles the same?)

Example 3:
I have a leman russ that is assaulted by a captain with thunder hammer.
A russ is about 5" long and say the next tank in the squadron is a full 4" further back from the first.
There is no maximum range for assault wound allocation so I assume the next tank is hit even though it's 9" away from the attacking model?
This seems to be RAW from my reading but also seems really silly since it means you can destroy a vehicle 18" away in close combat (5" leman russ, 4" coherency, 5" leman russ, and another 4" coherency to the third leman russ gives us 18").

Yes

1: it would be 2d6, 1d6, and out of range so no hits.

2: if it's out of LOS the wound pool empties so the 3rd tank is safe.

3: yep, that's the rule for this month

Based on the rule that shooting does not happen at the same time???

No no no. All shots are fired at the same time.

Naw wrote:
Based on the rule that shooting does not happen at the same time???

No no no. All shots are fired at the same time.

While things may be simultaneous, it is possible for them to be resolved sequentially.

Another example would be Reserves and Outflanks. Reserve rolls and Outflank rolls occur at the same time, however, a unit can not make an Outflank roll until after it passes its Reserve roll.

sirlynchmob wrote:
1: it would be 2d6, 1d6, and out of range so no hits.

Wouldn't this only be true if the third tank was out of range of all Meltaguns? If it was within 12" of the first Meltagun then it's considered "in range" to have hits allocated to it for the whole shooting attack? Still only 1D6 for penetration though (since it's obviously outside half range).

Or have I missed something / misunderstood something?

Vehicle squadrons behave like infantry. Pg 16 "Out of Range" describes what to do.

..whatever that means..

I assumed it meant that once the shooting began (the unit/squadron was in range), wounds could be allocated based on the closest distance.

Ok, let's take the question to the next level... in case one, if Melta's were all that fired, the effects would be 2d6, 1d6 and nothing because of out of range. But what if the firing squad also has bolters? We've shown that with infantry, a flamer can effect much farther than the flamers range if you are shooting with other weapons as well. So does the same thing apply to melta shots against a vehicle squadron, even if the weapons with longer range are, for example, bolters which can't hurt the vehicle?

Expanding the topic... as Pask is a Character, can the other tanks in his squadron make Look Out, Sir! rolls?

chanceafs wrote:
Ok, let's take the question to the next level... in case one, if Melta's were all that fired, the effects would be 2d6, 1d6 and nothing because of out of range. But what if the firing squad also has bolters? We've shown that with infantry, a flamer can effect much farther than the flamers range if you are shooting with other weapons as well. So does the same thing apply to melta shots against a vehicle squadron, even if the weapons with longer range are, for example, bolters which can't hurt the vehicle?

I can't remember where this was but it was updated that you have to seperate out the ranges as well as the strengths. so flamers can only hit flamer range, and bolters can only hit bolter range. this means that you have to seperate the squad when half the squad is in rapidfire range, as their range is shorted & they can kill less models.

otherwise taking a unit of 14 burnas and a mek with a big shoota would give them an insane range for conflagration, and it just doesn't.

so meltaguns can only hurt things within 12" of the meltagun models.

No, thats incorrect. The FAQ for out of range only allows you to allocate wounds up to the furthest firing model in the unit, it does not limit each weapon to only removing wounds from its range.

So your example is exactly wrong - you DO get to fire out to the range of the big shoota in that instance.

But how do you know if the flamers hit anything? Or how many wounds they cause each? You can't place them over any models without it not touching the firing models gun!

MaxZ wrote:
But how do you know if the flamers hit anything? Or how many wounds they cause each? You can't place them over any models without it not touching the firing models gun!

I think you're missing the distinction - the Flamer still needs to be placed to work out how many hits are generated, if none are covered then it is out of range. (Also, non-vehicles place the template in base contact, not at the gun barrel).
The difference is if you had three flamers, each hitting 3 models (so 9 hits), those hits could only be allocated to models within 8" (template range) of any firing model.
But if you add a longer-ranged weapon to the unit, those wounds can be allocated to any enemy in range of the longer range, even if that weapon misses.
Each weapon needs to be in range to generate hits, weapons out of range at this step do not fire.
The FAQ (quoted below) adds a previously absent cap on how far away wounds can be allocated.

Q: When making a Shooting attackagainst a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15) A: No.

Yes, it's odd, and it caused a lot of furor when the FAQ 'clarified' that was how GW wanted it to work.

Frankly, I would be more happy if real range was used, but it's not practical. Wound allocation would be a mini game itself.

 Quanar wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
1: it would be 2d6, 1d6, and out of range so no hits.

Wouldn't this only be true if the third tank was out of range of all Meltaguns? If it was within 12" of the first Meltagun then it's considered "in range" to have hits allocated to it for the whole shooting attack? Still only 1D6 for penetration though (since it's obviously outside half range).

Or have I missed something / misunderstood something?

you got it right. it should have been 2d6, 1d6, 1d6. I misread the question last night and thought the OP was going for a out of range for the 3rd tank.

sirlynchmob wrote:
you got it right. it should have been 2d6, 1d6, 1d6. I misread the question last night and thought the OP was going for a out of range for the 3rd tank.

Well, honestly from the OP I couldn't tell if the 3rd vehicle was out of range to the last two Meltas or all four (possible with vehicle squadron coherency), so I thought I'd try and ask for clarification.

Naw wrote:
Based on the rule that shooting does not happen at the same time???

No no no. All shots are fired at the same time.

yes they're fired at the same time, but melta says: an additional d6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicles armor at half range or less.

You allocated to a vehicle in a squadron one at a time (pg 77)

So when you allocate to a squadron you need to figure out which tanks are in 1/2 range and which ones are in full range.


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 Quanar wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
you got it right. it should have been 2d6, 1d6, 1d6. I misread the question last night and thought the OP was going for a out of range for the 3rd tank.

Well, honestly from the OP I couldn't tell if the 3rd vehicle was out of range to the last two Meltas or all four (possible with vehicle squadron coherency), so I thought I'd try and ask for clarification.

I have to stop posting before I finish my first cup of coffee

melta guns have a 12" range so I was right the first time, it would have been 2d6, 1d6, out of range as he said it was outside of 12"

but once again, note that if the unit also fired a bolter, that the third melta shot would indeed be allowed to resolve even outside of 12" range at 1d6 pen.

I'm still confused about the Meltas vs Hellhounds.

Let's say that the Hellhounds are in a conga, stretched away from the Meltas, which are also doing the conga. The MeltaA is 5" away from TankA, and 6" away from TankB. MeltaB is 5.5" away from TankA, and 8" away from TankB, and 13" away from TankC. MeltaC is 10" away from TankA, and out of range of the others. Melta D is 12" away from TankA, and out of range of the others.
(I realise that these distances may not add up...just work with it.)

So Meltas roll To Hit, and score 3 hits. Now, we don't know which melta missed.
Q1. Can the controlling player just claim that MeltaD (the furthest away) missed?
Q2. Can I determine which order I roll the meltas for pens? Ex: I roll MeltaB first, since it is in melting range of TankA, and exploding TankA would still allow me to melt TankB with MeltaA.

Use different colored dice, resolve each individually.

 LUTNIT wrote:
This seems to be RAW from my reading but also seems really silly since it means you can destroy a vehicle 18" away in close combat (5" leman russ, 4" coherency, 5" leman russ, and another 4" coherency to the third leman russ gives us 18").

The rules let you kill model in the unit regardless of distance from other models that are engaged in the combat.

If you have a conga line of 30 orks, each spaced 2 inches apart, the furthest model would be over 60 inches away from the furthest end of the line. If that furthest end is assaulted by a Furioso Dreadnought with blood talons, you could potentially kill every model in the unit. Even those that are 60 inches or more from the Furioso.

It is simply how the rules work, and an abstraction to make the game playable.

Real World Common sense/Real World Logic/how it works in the real world has no bearing on the 40k Ruleset.

Remember: The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now. (and maybe not even on a planet with the same physical makeup as our earth, and probably different physics as well).

As such they need to have some compromises to make the game playable.

 don_mondo wrote:
Use different colored dice, resolve each individually.

You're told to do this when there are mixed weapons, or when models are in different Armor Facings. What rules support doing it this time? (I realise it's the logical thing to do.)

Because you have no permission to roll all together. The default is rolling one dice at a time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you have no permission to roll all together. The default is rolling one dice at a time.

Alright, good enough.
Now, what about my Q2?

Ok so ya shoot your meltas. Get 4 hits, then roll to penetrate, based on firing model to the closest model. Once pens and glances are determind, at this point the shooting player decides which are used first. At this point you roll for pens and apply the damage, on the closest tank until it's dead, or all pens and glances are exhausted.


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Oh snap never mind. Shoot the resolve each shot separately. So yes if the 1st tanks in double dice damage range and the second 2 are not the it's one damage dice. Sorry last post was goofed.

Treat two like allocating wounds, so you choose the order that hits are resolved in when they have different special rules attached. Gaining 2d6 seems likely to be a different rule

The 2d6 pen is a result of the Melta rule. All of the shots have the Melta rule so it's all one wound group inside the pool.

rigeld2 wrote:
The 2d6 pen is a result of the Melta rule. All of the shots have the Melta rule so it's all one wound group inside the pool.

Melta applies to targets within 1/2 of their range. If the closest tank dies, it's entirely possible for it to lose that extra pen.

They all have melta, yes, but melta is subject to conditions on how close the model you're hitting is.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The 2d6 pen is a result of the Melta rule. All of the shots have the Melta rule so it's all one wound group inside the pool.

Melta applies to targets within 1/2 of their range. If the closest tank dies, it's entirely possible for it to lose that extra pen.

They all have melta, yes, but melta is subject to conditions on how close the model you're hitting is.

Agreed.
Wound groups are split up by STR and special rules.
What special rules are in play here? Melta. That's it. It's evaluated per hit, but it's the only special rule in play.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Naw wrote:
Based on the rule that shooting does not happen at the same time???

No no no. All shots are fired at the same time.

yes they're fired at the same time, but melta says: an additional d6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicles armor at half range or less.

You allocated to a vehicle in a squadron one at a time (pg 77)

So when you allocate to a squadron you need to figure out which tanks are in 1/2 range and which ones are in full range.

When, according to the rules, do you verify the range to a target? It would make sense to verify it each time you roll for penetration, but we already had the vehicle squadron to be in full melta range.

What do we know of shooting?

1) Choose unit to shoot
2) Choose a target
3) Check range
4) Roll to hit
5) Wounds, armour saves etc.

You don't re-check the range when rolling for pens/glances, you have already hit the unit.

Naw,
You also check Range when it comes to Allocating Wounds, with any models Out of Range being safe from taking any of the Wounds generated to the Wound Pool. Now I am not at my book, I do most of my posting from work these days, but from memory we are told to treat the Squadron as if it was a Unit. Does this section not then go ahead to provide similar instructions to tell us to Allocate the Hits in a method similar to the way Wounds are allocated to a non-vehicle Unit?