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So if the new 7th edition BRB rumors are true then Strength D weapons will become very much engrained into normal 40K. Obviously TO's and players can choose to play without or even Ban certain models/weapons from the game but doesn't offer unfair advantages to armies that don't have to take Str D on their super heavies? More importantly, is Str D really going to break the game entirely and become the new Meta or are their ways to deal with this effectively. It’s nice to think that the developers will consider the impact of super heavies and Str D (particularly Str D large blast) in normal games and add/change rules to balance the game out, but in the end we can only keep our fingers crossed. I have never used or played against Str D weapons so I am looking for some posts from experience on the subject.

In the games current state, is there any place for Str D weapons in competitive play or does it just completely destroy what balance there is? What would anyone even do to counter Str D super heavies outside of bringing their own? Also, what do you think they could or will do to help balance the Str D era that they will almost certainly create with the release of this new BRB?

The only positive thing about D-Weapons is their effects on Screamerstars. Otherwise I am in favor and play by FWs alternate D Weapon rules, as should everyone else.

Just to be clear, what are those rules. I know they change D to Str10 AP1 but are there any other rules like ignores cover? Otheriwise Str D would be more or less crap compared to other Super heavy choices

Dekken442 wrote:
Just to be clear, what are those rules. I know they change D to Str10 AP1 but are there any other rules like ignores cover? Otheriwise Str D would be more or less crap compared to other Super heavy choices

S10 AP1 ignores cover, fleshbane, armorbane, forces successful invulnerable saves to be rerolled.

Am I the only one that finds the current D Weapon rules to be nerfed and not that bad for normal play? I mean, it only wounds models, not units. Models hit have 1 in 6 chance of taking no damage at all, and any overkill is lost as there is no wound pool. Yes, vehicles will get exploded 5 out of 6 rolls, and MCs and high end ICs will get splattered, but a standard 10man squad might lose 3 models to a large blast, 2 at best to a small blast. Although, D strength Templet weapons would be a tad Overpowered.

SJ

Are these the rules you are referring to?

DESTROYER
Also known as Titan-killers, weapons with this special rule on their profile
deliver an immense amount of damage to their target. If a weapon has
a ‘D’ instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer.
If a Destroyer weapon hits a vehicle (including any vehicle caught under
a blast template from a weapon with this rule), there is no need to roll
for armour penetration – it automatically scores a penetrating hit. If a
Destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to
wound – it automatically scores a wound with the Instant Death rule.
Cover saves and Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against hits from
Destroyer type weapons. Invulnerable saves however may be taken as
normal

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Are these the rules you are referring to?

DESTROYER
Also known as Titan-killers, weapons with this special rule on their profile
deliver an immense amount of damage to their target. If a weapon has
a ‘D’ instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer.
If a Destroyer weapon hits a vehicle (including any vehicle caught under
a blast template from a weapon with this rule), there is no need to roll
for armour penetration – it automatically scores a penetrating hit. If a
Destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to
wound – it automatically scores a wound with the Instant Death rule.
Cover saves and Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against hits from
Destroyer type weapons. Invulnerable saves however may be taken as
normal

Those are the old 4th edition rules, not the current 6th edition rules.

SJ

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Are these the rules you are referring to?

DESTROYER
Also known as Titan-killers, weapons with this special rule on their profile
deliver an immense amount of damage to their target. If a weapon has
a ‘D’ instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer.
If a Destroyer weapon hits a vehicle (including any vehicle caught under
a blast template from a weapon with this rule), there is no need to roll
for armour penetration – it automatically scores a penetrating hit. If a
Destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to
wound – it automatically scores a wound with the Instant Death rule.
Cover saves and Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against hits from
Destroyer type weapons. Invulnerable saves however may be taken as
normal

Those rules are rather old I believe.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Am I the only one that finds the current D Weapon rules to be nerfed and not that bad for normal play? I mean, it only wounds models, not units. Models hit have 1 in 6 chance of taking no damage at all, and any overkill is lost as there is no wound pool. Yes, vehicles will get exploded 5 out of 6 rolls, and MCs and high end ICs will get splattered, but a standard 10man squad might lose 3 models to a large blast, 2 at best to a small blast. Although, D strength Templet weapons would be a tad Overpowered.

SJ

Yep, you're the only one

Just kidding, I know some people seem to like it for unknown reasons. Maybe they just enjoy games that last 2 turns where no one enjoys it. Who knows?

It's just strange that a Grot has a better chance of surviving a hit than a Land Raid.
2+ the tank is dead. Possibly dead on the roll of a 1 as well. Just a hit means the Land Raid isn't coming out without damage. Roll a 1 and e Grot survives without a scratch.
500pt AV15 building? Dead on a 2+ (maybe on a 1).

Yes it destroys Deathstars, something that is needed. But what about those armies that don't/can't have them? It destroys some thing else instead. The enjoyment of the game.

My bad on the old rules. I think the new forgeworld way is not so bad. I hate d weapons as they stand now though.

I think more psychic shut downs are needed to deal with the psychic death stars.

Screamer and seerstars fare much worse against space wolves and tyranids for example, but run unopposed against your average MEQ army.

GW has always had a method of introducing things that were overpowered and difficult to use in the game, then dealing with them by introducing something else overpowered, instead of just getting rid of the original problem.

all i can say is if Str D or even a pseudo Str D is introduced into normal 40k, EVERY RACE better have some form of it. Thats way too strong of a rule to solely give to Space Marines, which we know will be the first to get it. Only reason the Wraithknight's heavy cannons arent OP as crap is because its on a very expensive model and requires a wound of 6 to instant death, and doesnt ignore cover/invul by default.

Introducing crazy powerful weapons and only being available to one or two races, no matter how difficult it is to obtain long as its still viable, destroys any sense of balance lol.

 Kain wrote:
I think more psychic shut downs are needed to deal with the psychic death stars.

Screamer and seerstars fare much worse against space wolves and tyranids for example, but run unopposed against your average MEQ army.

Which may well happen if the psychic phase is similar to the one in WHFB

 Vineheart01 wrote:
all i can say is if Str D or even a pseudo Str D is introduced into normal 40k, EVERY RACE better have some form of it. Thats way too strong of a rule to solely give to Space Marines, which we know will be the first to get it. Only reason the Wraithknight's heavy cannons arent OP as crap is because its on a very expensive model and requires a wound of 6 to instant death, and doesnt ignore cover/invul by default.

Introducing crazy powerful weapons and only being available to one or two races, no matter how difficult it is to obtain long as its still viable, destroys any sense of balance lol.

But they are available to every race, aren't they? Certainly every Imperial Army can take a knight and I think everyone else has at least one option in Escalation. No?

Kholzerino wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
all i can say is if Str D or even a pseudo Str D is introduced into normal 40k, EVERY RACE better have some form of it. Thats way too strong of a rule to solely give to Space Marines, which we know will be the first to get it. Only reason the Wraithknight's heavy cannons arent OP as crap is because its on a very expensive model and requires a wound of 6 to instant death, and doesnt ignore cover/invul by default.

Introducing crazy powerful weapons and only being available to one or two races, no matter how difficult it is to obtain long as its still viable, destroys any sense of balance lol.

But they are available to every race, aren't they? Certainly every Imperial Army can take a knight and I think everyone else has at least one option in Escalation. No?

Nopezilla. Imperials have a plethora of easy-to-use/obtain big gunz. The xenos and heretics for the most part have to just bend over and accept it :c
They do get *some* stuff, like the Strompa, and that Eldar titan. but most of it either does not exist, or is just crap (Lord of Skulls).

What Selym said. Pretty much everything xeno or traitor related in the "big gun" category is total crap.

Also, the Knights arent available to every army...for some stupid fething reason. You would think it was an Imperial only thing, yet it isnt, and yet it isnt available to everyone. I wanted to "loot" one so bad for my orks, but its "Come the Apoc" so i cant.

GW has a very bad habit of making cool stuff for Imperial armies and ignoring xenos. Once in awhile we get something cool, but its usually in the utility department, not the ZOMGSTRONG department.

All I'm seeing are complaints generated from the old 4th Ed D Weapon rules, while the only reply regarding 6th Ed D seems to biased against it even though admitting its weak sauce.

All I can say is you guys should probably stop playing with older, broken rules, and update to newer broken rules. : p

SJ

I shall reiterate what I have previously said about D weapons in regular games of 40k.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Saying D weapons are good because they counter death stars is like saying amputation is good because it cures ingrown toenails.

Strength D is not an issue at all, just the trio who have godly amount of D- the ctan, reverent and warhound.

Most others are subpar even with D as they got very little of it like tau flyers single shot or IG small blasts , or lack defenses to match the cost like the lethal yet fragile tezzract vault.

the vault is fragile? heh i wouldnt think that seeing that behemoth on the table. Never faced against any FW models outside a Warhound in an apoc game though, i just read the rulebook (previous one, mind you)

Correct me if im wrong (and very likely i am) but didnt the StrD nerf really only affect vehicles? outside that a lot of the nerfs were bringing StrD to S10 with rules? I seem to remember it still ignoring cover, causing ID regardless of toughness, ignoring armor, and ignoring invuls.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the vault is fragile? heh i wouldnt think that seeing that behemoth on the table. Never faced against any FW models outside a Warhound in an apoc game though, i just read the rulebook (previous one, mind you)

Correct me if im wrong (and very likely i am) but didnt the StrD nerf really only affect vehicles? outside that a lot of the nerfs were bringing StrD to S10 with rules? I seem to remember it still ignoring cover, causing ID regardless of toughness, ignoring armor, and ignoring invuls.

I once fought alongside a Reaver in 5th. On T1 it deleted about 3k points of Eldar, as they had deployed too closely together. (Not that they had much choice, the board, despite being about six gaming tables together, was beyond-dense cityfight terrain).

 Selym wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the vault is fragile? heh i wouldnt think that seeing that behemoth on the table. Never faced against any FW models outside a Warhound in an apoc game though, i just read the rulebook (previous one, mind you)

Correct me if im wrong (and very likely i am) but didnt the StrD nerf really only affect vehicles? outside that a lot of the nerfs were bringing StrD to S10 with rules? I seem to remember it still ignoring cover, causing ID regardless of toughness, ignoring armor, and ignoring invuls.

I once fought alongside a Reaver in 5th. On T1 it deleted about 3k points of Eldar, as they had deployed too closely together. (Not that they had much choice, the board, despite being about six gaming tables together, was beyond-dense cityfight terrain).

I have to ask: How did 8 small blast markers remove 3k points in units from one turn of firing? Especially in 5th, where average life expectancy of a Reaver was only 2 turns at most. What did the Eldar player have? Six 500pt units in base to base with each other, and the Reaver player forgot to scatter?

Again, I keep seeing posts that imply a complete misunderstanding on how D Weapons worked, both then and now.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the vault is fragile? heh i wouldnt think that seeing that behemoth on the table. Never faced against any FW models outside a Warhound in an apoc game though, i just read the rulebook (previous one, mind you)

Correct me if im wrong (and very likely i am) but didnt the StrD nerf really only affect vehicles? outside that a lot of the nerfs were bringing StrD to S10 with rules? I seem to remember it still ignoring cover, causing ID regardless of toughness, ignoring armor, and ignoring invuls.

I once fought alongside a Reaver in 5th. On T1 it deleted about 3k points of Eldar, as they had deployed too closely together. (Not that they had much choice, the board, despite being about six gaming tables together, was beyond-dense cityfight terrain).

I have to ask: How did 8 small blast markers remove 3k points in units from one turn of firing? Especially in 5th, where average life expectancy of a Reaver was only 2 turns at most. What did the Eldar player have? Six 500pt units in base to base with each other, and the Reaver player forgot to scatter?

Again, I keep seeing posts that imply a complete misunderstanding on how D Weapons worked, both then and now.

SJ

All I remember is seen a whole bunch of models getting removed, and the owner commenting on the points value. I was too new to 40k to actually know what any of it was (about 6 months in, and never fought eldar).
And it being T1, the 2 turn life of a reaver is irrelevant. It still happened though.

Anyways, I do know how D weapons work, then and now.

Play against a StrD titan. A Revenant, Warhound, Reaver, and Ctan. Playing and theory crafting against them are two completely different things. 4-8 large blasts or a Apocalyptic Template from a Ctan that comes out of a Monolith on a titan that can only be killed by an ungodly amount of firing will kill a quarter of your army a turn, minimum. Smart players will aim at what can kill the titan and you'll be running for LOS terrain the rest of the game. It's silly. Even with S10, AP1, Ignores cover, Reroll invuln, you're looking at killing everything, but the Starscream/Seer Council that everyone takes StrD to counter. Only way to beat StrD is with more StrD unfortunately. It won't be a game of balance, just who has more money. Unfortunately. No TAC list will be able to beat a titan list.

S10 AP1 wont do jack vs other super heavies (un)fortunately.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the vault is fragile? heh i wouldnt think that seeing that behemoth on the table. Never faced against any FW models outside a Warhound in an apoc game though, i just read the rulebook (previous one, mind you)

He speaks from experience- his Tau kicked my Vault's ass rather soundly the one time they faced it.

Nid FMC spam had an even easier time of it, despite the Vault having taken the 6d6 S8 AP3 shots power making it a fairly decent AA unit.

Superheavy Walkers can be locked in combat, robbing them of their range attacks. Warhounds, Reavers, and Revenants can be (until the 5/24/14) melee'd to death with grenades and hammers/fists. Void shields can be stripped, holo-fields can be defeated, hull points can be stripped. If a Superheavy Walker survives into the 3rd game turn, you fail at the focus fire test.

On Gargantuan Creatures ... Poison? Force armor saves? Vortex spam? Godzilla?

SJ

7th ed has D weapons only ignoring ++ saves on a roll of 6 now IIRC

I feel that they are toned down, FOR THE PTS YOU HAVE TO PAY, (note that important bit) enough for regular games now.

ESP since every race has D weapons in some form, even if its just from a stronghold, and that for what they now do, you pay a hefty price for them, as well as there are lots of things that can kill them.

for models that were already not getting a save, orcover, or ++, like 90% of your troops already dont, its a moot point, even before the nerf,a s you were already taking them off on a 2+

not sure if D changed with regards to vehicles in 7th, but being able to blow up a 250pt or less vehicle with a 500pt+ titan or somthing isnt that OP

 easysauce wrote:
7th ed has D weapons only ignoring ++ saves on a roll of 6 now IIRC

I feel that they are toned down, FOR THE PTS YOU HAVE TO PAY, (note that important bit) enough for regular games now.

ESP since every race has D weapons in some form, even if its just from a stronghold, and that for what they now do, you pay a hefty price for them, as well as there are lots of things that can kill them.

for models that were already not getting a save, orcover, or ++, like 90% of your troops already dont, its a moot point, even before the nerf,a s you were already taking them off on a 2+

not sure if D changed with regards to vehicles in 7th, but being able to blow up a 250pt or less vehicle with a 500pt+ titan or somthing isnt that OP

Tyranids have absolutely no D-weapons at all.