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Currently there seems to only be two types of units discussed, pure shooter squads and dedicated assault beatstick squads.

Is there value in an intermediate assault unit? Something able to win solidly against pure shooters but provide enough of a roadblock against dedicated assault units to make a difference?

Can you give an example? Like a shoota boyz squad perhaps?

There most definitely is a value to them. They are extremely difficult to talk about though and their use is situational. Therefore on the internet they become "garbage" and "trash".

The single most used and useful assault unit I play with (and I play CWE, SM, CSM, CD, AM, and GK) is the SM White Scars biker troops. I assault more often with those units and they have done more damage than any other unit in assault. However against seer councils and almost any of my CSM, GK, or CD assault units they would get spanked.

The units that are "weak" in assault but still useful and how I have used them are;

AM infantry squads are great for use as speed bumps. Don't try to avoid the assault with you units as you can end up bunched up for multi assaults.

SM TAC squads, scouts, and assault bikes are all "weak" in assault but their grenades and S/T 4 both make their assault capabilities worth noting. They can kill MCs and vehicles relatively well and they can use their assault capabilities against weakened or weaker units to good effect. Assault is also often the best way to clear an objective.

CWE jetbike units an dire avengers can both be pretty useful to clear an objective turn 5. Warp spiders and swooping hawks are also useful to try and break units off an objective or pull a unit off end game as they are so fast. For CWE their assault weapons are the secret sauce to this as they can still shoot to full effect whereas most other units would have to not fire their rapid fire weapons to charge

I find scarabs for my crons an exceptional speed bump. A full squad has a large amount of fearless wounds. Also has a huge amount of attacks (albeit st3 I2), so are good against non assault specialists. And they are of course awsome against vehicles.
Their MAJOR weakness is st6 attacks which will ID them. So against eldar they are a points liability.

rothrich wrote:
Can you give an example? Like a shoota boyz squad perhaps?

The first thing that comes to mind is the basic Assault Marine squad. They will have little problems against a squad of Fire Warriors or Chaos Cultists .

 minigun762 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Can you give an example? Like a shoota boyz squad perhaps?

The first thing that comes to mind is the basic Assault Marine squad. They will have little problems against a squad of Fire Warriors or Chaos Cultists .

Assault Marines are the obvious answer. Their value really comes down to their points cost - if they're relatively cheap then they can have value, but if you're dropping points on a mediocre assault unit like Vanguard Vets then you're just gimping yourself.

Yeah, I'd agree. They can be useful, if somewhat subtly. The main benefit of shooty units that are only so-so in assault is that they have a role that they're used for, but they're still better in close combat than a big pile of stuff that's straight bad in close combat.

I think bikes are a great example of this. Their shooting is good enough, but it's always nice to be able to to then follow it up with a charge if you want to be a bit more decisive, or to have the option to assault weak backfield scoring units (which often will have annoying cover saves to deal with).

Put another way, middling assault ability gives you versatility. It's only really all that great when you can actually use that versatility (so, like bikes, or stuff in a drop pod assault or open-topped transport, etc.), but versatility in itself is a useful thing to have.

In any case, the way to avoid internet-think is to take a unit and look at what it's better than, rather than to look at the things that are better than it and if the number is greater than zero immediately dismiss it as garbage.

Another advantage is they often get dismissed by opponents. Taking a melta bomb on an infiltrating scout Sargent can pay dividends. Opponents often pass vehicles by close enough for a damaging charge, as they are 'only scouts'.

Poly Ranger wrote:melta bomb

Yeah, especially those little bastards. A single 5-point upgrade won't make you a god of war, but they will certainly change just enough equations to be annoying if you're on the other side of them.

Melta bomb are great little bits of insurance, especially now that they can be used against MCs.

Bikers or assault marines both have enough oomph to kill weaklings which is all you really need to do. Heck, just stopping them from shooting is enough.

The extra benefit of Bikers and Assault Marines is that they're extremely mobile, in addition to being relatively inexpensive. Notoriously bad assault units, like Mutilators, are dismissed in part because they're too damn slow and might only get in 1-2 assaults all game if they're lucky, nor will they be able to dictate where those assaults occur.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
The extra benefit of Bikers and Assault Marines is that they're extremely mobile, in addition to being relatively inexpensive. Notoriously bad assault units, like Mutilators, are dismissed in part because they're too damn slow and might only get in 1-2 assaults all game if they're lucky, nor will they be able to dictate where those assaults occur.

Mutiltors are not "bad assault units" they are in fact pretty good in assault, they are a "bad unit" full stop due to having no way to get to melee. Though they may become very good in allowed to assault from reserves.

Small fast assault units like raven guard assault marines can make great contributions in threatening backfield squishy firepower. Keep in mind you should keep unit minimal and very small model count so they can hide out of los. Low model count does leave risk of being nuked in overwatch, but you should pick high speed units that control target and advent of jump pack that ignores movement penalty for cover means you can still rely on cover save.

Another midrange assault unit would be newton scarabs, the type of unit that is fast but durable so it can tie up string targets.


You have fast assault snipers and speedbumps.

 ansacs wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
The extra benefit of Bikers and Assault Marines is that they're extremely mobile, in addition to being relatively inexpensive. Notoriously bad assault units, like Mutilators, are dismissed in part because they're too damn slow and might only get in 1-2 assaults all game if they're lucky, nor will they be able to dictate where those assaults occur.

Mutiltors are not "bad assault units" they are in fact pretty good in assault, they are a "bad unit" full stop due to having no way to get to melee. Though they may become very good in allowed to assault from reserves.

Hence why they are considered a bad assault unit.

Oh, come on, mutilators aren't THAT bad.

Firstly, as mentioned, when they do get into close combat, they can beat friggin face.

Secondly, they do have mobility options. For example, they can deepstrike, which means you can deploy into your opponent's DZ, which is especially useful if you want to attack a place your opponent can't move away from, like an objective, for example. They can also ride in a land raider where they take up only 3 of 5 terminator spots, which means they can use an AV14 assault vehicle to get into close combat with abaddon, or whatever.

They're a somewhat difficult unit to use that's good when it's good. That's not a "weak" assault unit, it's just not an easy-button one.

Currently the assault unit with the best track record in my army (CSM - everyone has some assault capability) are the humble cultists. They cost next to nothing and can drown decent units in I3 S3 WS3 madness. Sure, they'll die horribly, but they always punch above their weight while they're up. A 150pt unit (around 35x models) kicks out over 100 attacks on the charge.

Deepstrike for a normal footzlogging unit is not a reliable means to get them into assault unless they have something ghat prevents them from scattering.

It's a better deal than having them walk up the board, though.

I mean, if deepstriking was really so worthless, would you allow your opponent to give a squad of khorne berzerkers deepstrike for free?

Yes I would. I did not call it worthless. I called it unreliable unless there was something that prevented scatter. That form of deepstriking is for shooters or fast assault unitz.

Why?

Without a beacon, you still hit a third of the time, and another third of the time you land somewhere you can get to in the next movement phase, or immediately in the shooting phase with a run. Then you add that of that remaining third, only half of the scatter directions move you strictly further away from where you wanted to get anyways.

I mean, you're basically deploying at BS5. It's not without risk, of course, but come on.

Necron Warriors with Zahndrekh make for a pretty decent melee blob. Or well, rather underestimated, but good blob.

 ansacs wrote:
There most definitely is a value to them. They are extremely difficult to talk about though and their use is situational. Therefore on the internet they become "garbage" and "trash".

And then you go on to talk about White Scar Bike Squads, who are more or less universally accepted as the best Troops choice in C:SM? Wut?

 Ailaros wrote:
It's a better deal than having them walk up the board, though.

I mean, if deepstriking was really so worthless, would you allow your opponent to give a squad of khorne berzerkers deepstrike for free?

Well at least they'd be off the board for 2-4 turns, and it's not like Khorne Berserkers aren't overcosted to begin with... but I know what you mean, deepstriking is better than footslogging in general I'd argue.

Melee deepstrikes do one thing VERY well, forcing attention.

Even if they wont land a single punch, they might make themselves valuable enough just because they made the opponent focus too much attention into them, either giving you time to shoot at him, or get your walking assaults time to arrive.
And if he ignores them, they get to rip some faces off.

They are used for opening a second engagement rather then having everyone come from the same direction, where the opponent could just keep his distance.

Shotgun scouts do a decent job for a 'poor' unit.

You often need a bit of luck (or first turn!) to make them work but when they do they tend to pay for themselves.

Some of the best troop choices are weak assault units. A fearless blob of IG, a fearless squad of Zombies, windrider jetbikes, MSU wracks, evn termagants spawned to hold an objective or daemon troops out a portal and I can go on. We have specialist units for assault. We need troops that are duarble or have speed to come on late and hold objectives.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
There most definitely is a value to them. They are extremely difficult to talk about though and their use is situational. Therefore on the internet they become "garbage" and "trash".

And then you go on to talk about White Scar Bike Squads, who are more or less universally accepted as the best Troops choice in C:SM? Wut?

I don't know about "universally," since you're the first person I can think of that's said this...

 Jimsolo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
There most definitely is a value to them. They are extremely difficult to talk about though and their use is situational. Therefore on the internet they become "garbage" and "trash".

And then you go on to talk about White Scar Bike Squads, who are more or less universally accepted as the best Troops choice in C:SM? Wut?

I don't know about "universally," since you're the first person I can think of that's said this...

It's pretty "Universal". Only one that comes close is Iron hands. Even the ravenwing pales in comparison, although realistically DA shouldn't be as good as normal SM as bikers.


By normal SM I do mean white scars.

Well, WS are made for a "pure bike" army, while DA are far more useful in a "combined arms" type when you got the ravenwing dashing ahead, allowing the deathwing to drop.

What some people miss (in my opinion), is that not EVERYTHING needs to be troops, and unlocking one as your troops does NOT mean you ignore the other, it just means you dont pay tactical taxes.


Back to "weak" assault units, they get the job done often enough. you don't need to be the freaking ghost of sparta to kill the enemy squad at CC, just SLIGHTLY better then he is, with the assault on your side, is usually enough.

Im a big fan of 5 man BA assault units. Either equipped with jump packs, flamer and 2 hand flamers; a perfect harrassment / scoring unit that can put the hurt on Xenos (looking at you markerlight guys). Or 5 man without jumppacks, for the 35 point discount on a transport or pod, with 1 meltagun and maybe melta bombs. These guys present very little threat and I am often able to get them into a good position to do something usefull or score. They also have a habit of having 1 marine survive fire and then force the opponent, on his next turn, to either waste firepower or ignore the last guy.