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I'd like to make a 2500 dark elf list with the following rules:

1. No special characters

2. no sacrificial dagger

3. mages not using lore of life/light (doesn't seem very 'dark' to me)


Any suggestions?

Level 4 death with cloak of twilight and obsidian trinket on a peg.

1+ rerollable BSB with sword of might.

Scroll caddy.

Core filled with dark riders.

30 Executioners

Two units of warlocks.

How about this?

2500 Dark Elves


LORDS

Supreme Sorceress
level 4, Dark Steed,
Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll


HEROES

Master (in executioners)
BSB, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak,
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might


CORE

Witch Elves/Corsairs x 30
FC, Razor Standard


Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician

Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician


SPECIAL

Executioners x 39
FC
standard of discipline


Shades x 5
great weapons


Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower


RARE

War Hydra
Fire Breath

War Hydra
Fire Breath

Doomfire Warlocks x9


TOTAL = 2498


The idea is for the sorc to run with warlocks along a flank with the dark riders. Shades pop up to attack war machines/wizard bunkers.
The executioner block marches with witch elves nearby. BSB helps keep the witches in check. Hydras lend support to the infantry. Bolt throwers sweep enemy chaff from baiting the witches/flanking.

What are your thoughts?

Hydras have been chosen to act as an anvil rather than a hammer (their regen and higher wounds help).
They also provide flaming attacks if required. I know some people prefer the Kharribdyss, and although it is an impressive monster, I feel that already have executioners and bolt throwers for higher strength hits. (correct me if this is indeed wrong)

Not sure about running witch elves or corsairs. I don't want to bother with the cauldron..does this affect my choice?

What lore should I run on my sorceress? I was thinking death or shadow. Am I correct in assuming that the warlocks 'count as' a level 2 mage? Do they get to channel like a normal lvl 2 would?

Not enough chaff. Too many witches and hydras.

Hmm, I do like the witch elves as a good partner with the executioners...they take care of light armour, exe's take care of heavy armour.

I take your point on additional chaff..would a second unit of shades help?

LORDS

Supreme Sorceress
level 4, Dark Steed,
Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll


HEROES

Master (in executioners)
BSB, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak,
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might


Assassin *hides with executioners to protect BSB*
extra hand weapon


CORE

Witch Elves/Corsairs x 30
FC, Razor Standard


Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician

Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician


SPECIAL

Executioners x 39
FC
standard of discipline


Shades x 5
great weapons

Shades x 5
great weapons


Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower


RARE

Kharibdyss

Doomfire Warlocks x9
champion


TOTAL = 2500

Needs more dark riders.

Are you sure I need this much chaff?...how about this?


Core

Dark Riders x 10
shield, crossbow
musician

Dark Riders x 10
shield, crossbow
musician

Darkspears x 20
musician, standard
BotEF

I've seen 2 approaches work well for dark elf core.
1) lots of dark riders to redirect with, and specials to crush his chaff.
2) Lots of shooting and witches in core to kill his chaff, and beat sticks in specials to kill his death stars.

-Matt

OK, revised lists...

List One


LORDS

Supreme Sorceress
level 4, Dark Steed,
Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll


HEROES

Master (in executioners)
BSB, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak,
Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Sword of Might


Assassin (hides in executioners)
extra hand weapon
glittering scales OR potion of strength, dragonbane gem

CORE

Darkshards x 20
FC
BotEF

Dark Riders x 5
shield, crossbow
musician

Dark Riders x 5
shield, crossbow
musician

Dark Riders x 5
shield, crossbow
musician


SPECIAL

Executioners x 39
FC
standard of discipline


Shades x 5
great weapons


War Hydra
Flame Breath

War Hydra
Flame Breath


Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower


RARE

Doomfire Warlocks x9

Drop the hydras from list one and you're good to go. Replace them with brolocks and you're even better!

A few points.

1. I am already running 9 warlocks (mage bunker). Is this their best use, or should I put the mage into the crossbows and bump them to a unit of 10 (or 2 units of 5)?

2. Is it better for me to run 2 units of 5 shades (with 3 dark rider units and the warlocks), or 1 unit of 5 and an assassin?

3. Don't I need hydras to deal with hordes? I thought the k-beast is better suited for elites (which I have bolt throwers for)

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
A few points.

1. I am already running 9 warlocks (mage bunker). Is this their best use, or should I put the mage into the crossbows and bump them to a unit of 10 (or 2 units of 5)?

2. Is it better for me to run 2 units of 5 shades (with 3 dark rider units and the warlocks), or 1 unit of 5 and an assassin?

3. Don't I need hydras to deal with hordes? I thought the k-beast is better suited for elites (which I have bolt throwers for)

1) It depends what Lore your Sorceress is using (you should really put this in your list). If it's something short-ranged, such as Death, then a unit of Warlocks is a good idea. If not, she's better off in a unit of Darkshards with the Banner of Discipline. If you are running with the Warlocks, I'd add in a champion into the unit, just in case you want to be cheesy and reform one wide to push your Sorceress to the back.

2) The former. Assassins are terrible. They were meh in the last book, and just got worse in this one. Any characters you want killing will either be really easy to kill anyway (Mages etc) or will just laugh at your Assassin's attempts. Shadowblade is decent, if you really want an assassin of some sort, but otherwise I'd steer well clear of them.

3) Hydras are better at dealing with hordes than Kharibdysses, thanks to the breath weapon, but, thanks to the RBTs and the Xbows, you shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with them anyway.

-------------

As for the list itself, I really need to know what Lore you plan to run on your Lvl4, but, from what I have, I can offer the following advice.

- Drop the Assassin (for reasons mentioned above) and get a Lvl1/2 with a supporting Lore instead

- Drop down the executioners, you've overdone it. 30 or so is fine. The points you save are better spent on either Tullaris or a Witchbrew Hag with the Ogre Blade to give them frenzy.

- Swap your Shades' great weapons for AHWs. Shades should primarily be tasked with eliminating war machine crew and other chaff units, against most of which the great weapons are no way near as good as a re-roll to hit and an extra attack.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the feedback


I had accidently forgot to edit the number of executioners, so they are actually at 29.

Agree to your changes re: shades. I will drop the assassin to field 2 units of 5 with AHW and muso.

With this in mind, I have started to question the need for 3 units of dark riders...surely 2 with the 2 shades units working the backfield will be enough for zone control? Shades lock up any missile/artillery, dark riders re-direct/run escort for the warlocks, and RBT's can sweep the flanks with supporting fire if needed.

All up, if I swap out the assassin for shades, switch the hydras to k-beasts, i have 57 points to play with....

So I wanted to revisit the core spending, i would have 410 points up my sleeve (after buying the 2 dark rider units). Do I stick with the large unit of crossbows as a place to potentially put in a support mage? Or should I look at taking a smallish unit (20) of corsairs/witches to assist the executioners?

If I reallocated core, took a small unit of crossbows (no shields) and ran them with muso, standard and BotEF, i would have enough points left over for a unit of 20 witches/corsairs with FC and gleaming pennant.

Thoughts?

To much chaff will juts get in each others way IMO.
Witches are only worth running if you get the Cauldron, i run em everytime.

If the other player does not have direct damage spells your lvl 4 can always hide behind a building by her self and whip her death spells. Dont be afraid to throw warlocks into combat, they are deadly. If they are close enough to the cauldron they get 4 attempts per dice roll to wound high toughness models.

Good Luck, I run 10 dark riders, 10 warlocks. And thats its for Fast cav, Works well for me.

One billion units of chaff will not get in each other's way if you know how to use them.

As for the witches and the cauldron, it seems like it works, but it's really the least effective way to use the cauldron. The best being the shooting list, followed by corsairs, then black guard, followed by executioners and finally by witches.

The level 4 death should be on a peg. Stick the cloak of twilight on her as well as the obsidian trinket to make her T4 with 3 wounds and a 3+ ward vs shooting and a 2+ ward vs magic.

LORDS 

Supreme Sorceress 
level 4, Dark Steed, 
Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll 


HEROES 

Master (in executioners) 
BSB, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak,
SoM, Dawnstone, e.shield

Sorceress (shadow or beasts)


CORE 

Darkshards x 11
Musician, standard
BotEF 

Corsairs/witches x 20
FC
gleaming pennant

Dark Riders x 5 
shield, crossbow 
musician 

Dark Riders x 5 
shield, crossbow 
musician 


SPECIAL 

Executioners x 39 
FC 
standard of discipline 


Shades x 5 
AHW, musician

Shades x 5
AHW, musician


Kharibdyss

Kharibdyss


Reaper Bolt Thrower 

Reaper Bolt Thrower 


RARE 

Doomfire Warlocks x9
Champion

2500


How does this list fare? Im not sure if I would have enough power dice with lvl4, lvl1 and Warlocks. Is it manageable from that point of view? Running the lvl4 on death lore might net me some additional power dice and the lvl1 can cast miasma/wildform

Looks pretty normal to me. I personally prefer the deathpeg level 4. More versatile.

2500 Dark Elves

Supreme Sorceress (Shadow)
level 4, ++4, Dispel Scroll


Master
BSB, heavy armour, SDC, eShield, DS, SoM

Assassin
AHW, otts

Darkshards x 20 (lvl 4 here)
shields, FC
BotEF

Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician

Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician

Dark Riders x 5
shields, crossbows
musician


Executioners x 29 (Master here)
FC, standard of discipline


Cold One Knights x 10
FC
Gleaming Pennant


Shades x 5
great weapons
musician

Shades x 5
great weapons
musician


Reaper Bolt Thrower

Reaper Bolt Thrower


Doomfire Warlocks x5

Doomfire Warlocks x5


2500


OR

Drop: CoKs

Add: Cold One Chariot x 2, Bolt Thrower x1

Change: Assassin AHW, Dark Venom, otts, Opal Amulet

Wanted to try something different - thoughts?

Changing up the core:

Darkshards x 17 (lvl4 goes here)
FC, BotEF

The can deploy 9x2 for shooting and reform for 6x3 if combat occurs. Dropped shields for more points


Corsairs/Witch Elves x 15

An extra support unit for the executioners alongside the CoK. Their role is to target more rank-and-file threats which are unsuitable for exe's/CoK to engage. Undecided between corsairs or witch elves for this role. Corsairs are more durable and reliable, whereas Witches are more offensive (extra attacks, ITP, poison) but vunerable (no armour, frenzy bait risk).

Dark Riders x 5 (2)
shields, crossbows, muso

Do what they do. Run in teams with 2 5 man warlock units.


How does this look?

I run 30 execs with a S7 Dreadlord, S6 master and S5 BSB. With Tully in there to give frenzy, you don't need supporting units.

As awesome as Tully is, I don't want to run named characters just yet.


I am still unsure about my core, which I suppose comes down to how I want to run my level 4 sorc., and what lore is best suited for her positioning.

On foot = with the darkshards. shadow magic?
core = 17 darkshards FC+BotEF(bunker)/15 witches/2 units of 5 dark riders


Dark steed = with the warlocks/dark riders. Dark/Metal/Heavens?
core = 15 darkshards muso,standard+BotEF/2 units of 10 dark riders


Pegasus = flying solo. Run with death magic for close range sniping.
15 witches muso/standard+BotEF/2 units of 10 dark riders


Are the 2 larger units of dark riders better than 2/3 smaller units of 5?
Running the darkshards with BotEF for stripping regen seems to be a good idea; as well as RBT protection duties.

I figure if I ended up running the dark pegasus I should place more pressure on forward units and forgo the darkshards, giving the witches the flaming banner.


I don't want to run a CoB, but I'm not against using witches in a smaller supporting role. Dark riders are very cool and useful, just not what size to run them.

The best Dark Elf core is 3 units of 10 Darkshards(Naked), and two units of 5 Dark Riders(Musicians, standards, shields, and crossbows). That ends up at 600 points on the nose, and gives you a versatile chaff.

The level 4 should be on a death and a pegasus, with the cloak of twilight and obsidian trinket. This is probably the best build for the book now. With a 3+ ward vs shooting and a 2+ ward vs magic, and the ability to dodge combat.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The level 4 should be on a death and a pegasus, with the cloak of twilight and obsidian trinket. This is probably the best build for the book now. With a 3+ ward vs shooting and a 2+ ward vs magic, and the ability to dodge combat.

Watch out for non-standard "shooting" attacks. Vamp screams, Fire Pheonix fly-bys, Gyrocopter bombing runs, etc. I've been told that these attacks don't count as 'shooting' for purposes of the ward save, thus she's naked against them. Hiding her in a unit seems to bypass those threats, but if you need to hide her in a unit often, the peggy build isn't worthwhile.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The level 4 should be on a death and a pegasus, with the cloak of twilight and obsidian trinket. This is probably the best build for the book now. With a 3+ ward vs shooting and a 2+ ward vs magic, and the ability to dodge combat.

Watch out for non-standard "shooting" attacks. Vamp screams, Fire Pheonix fly-bys, Gyrocopter bombing runs, etc. I've been told that these attacks don't count as 'shooting' for purposes of the ward save, thus she's naked against them. Hiding her in a unit seems to bypass those threats, but if you need to hide her in a unit often, the peggy build isn't worthwhile.

The terrorgheist is treated as a a shooting attack. Therefore you get a ward. The Phoenix fly by is done in the movement phase. As for gyros, I can't comment.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The terrorgheist is treated as a a shooting attack. Therefore you get a ward.

If you could shoot me a reference for that, I'd appreciate it. I've had VC players insist it isn't shooting, but is a special attack. Sorry to iLLiTHiD for the hijack.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The terrorgheist is treated as a a shooting attack. Therefore you get a ward.

If you could shoot me a reference for that, I'd appreciate it. I've had VC players insist it isn't shooting, but is a special attack. Sorry to iLLiTHiD for the hijack.

It's a special shooting attack. Done in the shooting phase. Distributed as shooting. I'll check my book when I finish work.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The level 4 should be on a death and a pegasus, with the cloak of twilight and obsidian trinket. This is probably the best build for the book now. With a 3+ ward vs shooting and a 2+ ward vs magic, and the ability to dodge combat.

Watch out for non-standard "shooting" attacks. Vamp screams, Fire Pheonix fly-bys, Gyrocopter bombing runs, etc. I've been told that these attacks don't count as 'shooting' for purposes of the ward save, thus she's naked against them. Hiding her in a unit seems to bypass those threats, but if you need to hide her in a unit often, the peggy build isn't worthwhile.

No worries re: hijack...I hadn't considered that element of risk. Are miscasts also considered a 'magical' attack, or are they exempt from the cloak's protection also? If they are, I am starting to think it may be better to stick with the ++4.


I was brainstorming last night about core, I will put up several other suggestions for the list. A quick question; would a unit of 10 harpies running escort with the sorc on pegasus be a worthwhile investment in replacement of shades? I kinda like the idea of them running escort duty whilst the sorc makes her way up the field, then they can split off turn 2 to hunt war machines and the like.

Will post my modifications soon!

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


The terrorgheist is treated as a a shooting attack. Therefore you get a ward.

If you could shoot me a reference for that, I'd appreciate it. I've had VC players insist it isn't shooting, but is a special attack. Sorry to iLLiTHiD for the hijack.

It's a special shooting attack. Done in the shooting phase. Distributed as shooting. I'll check my book when I finish work.

So, A. It's a magical attack, and B. It;s distributed as shooting in the shooting phase.


And as per the FAQ, we use the following, as it's neither a combat, nor a shooting attack.

Q: When hits, other than from shooting and close combat attacks, are
inflicted upon a unit how are these hits resolved? (p42)
A: As per the ‘Resolving Unusual Attacks’ box. Note that all
hits resolved in this way will count as shooting attacks for
working out who is hit.


And no, the cloak doesn't protect against miscasts, but the only one that will really do any lasting damage is cascade, and you don't get any saves against that anyway.

So the core changes look something like this:

2495/2055

OPTION 1

add dark pegasus
switch ++4 to cloak of twilight?
drop Cok, split as (2) CoK x 5, muso
drop otts
drop musos from shades
=2500


OPTION 2

add dark pegasus
switch ++4 to cloak of twilight?
drop shades
add harpies x 10
=2500


OPTION 3

add dark pegasus
switch ++4 to cloak of twilight?
drop CoK
add (2) Chariots
drop 1 unit of shades
add harpies x 10
=2500


Thoughts?

Option 3. But split the harpies into units of 5.