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Fallen Angel Dataslate wrote:Cypher can be selected as part of a primary detachment from the following codexes: Codex: Adepta Sororitas, Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Imperial Guard, Codex: Inquisition, Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Space Wolves. Cypher does not take up any slots from the detachment’s Force Organisation chart. He may not be included in an army that includes any models from Codex: Dark Angels.

What I'm wondering about is what does the IoM know about Cypher and the Fallen Angels? If they know nothing wouldn't they be more than a little curious about a Dark Angel, clad in pre-Horus Heresy armour, colour scheme and all, turned up and offered his services?

The Imperium in general knows nothing about the Fallen and that's how the Dark Angels like it.

Probably not. Most artwork I've seen shows him in post Heresy armour and he only shows up when people are desperate and a Space Marine helping is a Space Marine helping... Plus if anyone does get curious they'll sadly die while helping the Dark Angels cleanse a planet.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Fallen Angel Dataslate wrote:Cypher can be selected as part of a primary detachment from the following codexes: Codex: Adepta Sororitas, Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Imperial Guard, Codex: Inquisition, Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Space Wolves. Cypher does not take up any slots from the detachment’s Force Organisation chart. He may not be included in an army that includes any models from Codex: Dark Angels.

What I'm wondering about is what does the IoM know about Cypher and the Fallen Angels? If they know nothing wouldn't they be more than a little curious about a Dark Angel, clad in pre-Horus Heresy armour, colour scheme and all, turned up and offered his services?

most citizens of the IoM have never seen even 1 space marine, and so the difference between preheresy armor and post heresy styles are probably lost on them. Also even if they have seen a space marine, there are still dozens of styles of armor, paint schemes, and hereldry. No two are identical(unless they are alpha legion) so they would probably not know anything.

Even your average space marines(who sees other space marines all the time) might have only see space marines from his chapter, and then when he sees one from another chapter might have trouble making the distinction.

The Grey Knights know, and they don't really care.

The ultimate irony of the hunt for the fallen is that ultimately the wider Imperium wouldn't care even if they knew and few would think less of them for it. All the shame and disgrace is entirely in the Dark Angels' own heads.

Grey knights will know, as acrording to ome post they almost blackmailed dark angels to help by saying they found some interesting people as long the way.

Off a post on number of fallen I think.

And to grey knights, they have more important enemies than a traitor marine, the dark forces of the warp

According to Pandorax fluff one of the first GK, back when it was still the Sigulites "personal" force, was a Dark Angel form after the Fall of Caliban.

They may have had a clue if the DA weren't such traitors and didn't cause the 'disappearance' of the Ophideum Gulf. Hate those guys.

I think I should rephrase my question;

How would non-DA Spehss Mureens react to finding SMs bearing the DA symbol, in ancient and black power armour (as opposed to the current white or green), in single or small groups?

You would think if say a Space Wolf met one it'd be along the lines of "Hang on, hang on... Why isn't this fella down for a duel? And why is he dressed completely different from the other Dark Angels?"

Even though most SMs are loyal and unquestioning to their superiors, they are generally a little suspicious of other chapters.

 Banzaimash wrote:
They may have had a clue if the DA weren't such traitors and didn't cause the 'disappearance' of the Ophideum Gulf. Hate those guys.

Such traitors
Much Heresy
Wow


Sorry, I had to

 ChazSexington wrote:
I think I should rephrase my question;
How would non-DA Spehss Mureens react to finding SMs bearing the DA symbol, in ancient and black power armour (as opposed to the current white or green), in single or small groups?
You would think if say a Space Wolf met one it'd be along the lines of "Hang on, hang on... Why isn't this fella down for a duel? And why is he dressed completely different from the other Dark Angels?"
Even though most SMs are loyal and unquestioning to their superiors, they are generally a little suspicious of other chapters.

Most space marines don't know what color dark angels usually paint their armor. Space marines don't have networking events where they all gather together and shake hands, eat and drink together and comment on each other's armor color. They are born, trained, eat, sleep and fight with their chapter. When they march into battle all they see are the enemy.
Even so there are the deathwing in white, the greenwing in green, and the ravenwing in black plus doezens of successors in every color imaginable.
That's the thing.

So they meat one of the fallen. Hmm black armor, lots of black armored loyalists, no extra reason for concern. Hmm strange insignia somewhat similar to dark angels(not sure every space marine would even know a DA insignia), probably either DA or a DA successor. Hmm armor seems old, guess these guys don't live near a forge world or have been in some heavy fighting.

I would guess that most space marine regiments would know the names and heraldry of all the other significant chapters, traitor or otherwise. There are not too many out there, and the imperium is obsessed about remembering its own histories. Basic education for the marines would cover it tbh. It would be useful for them to know which marines are allies and which marines are actually traitors. Certainly I would expect all other space marines to know of the Dark Angels. They are the first chapter of the founding chapters.

To the OP: Normal people would be just as curious/afraid as they would from seeing any other space marine.

Other space marines might be suspicious, but the DA are renowned for their secrecy and closed nature. Cypher's appearance and mannerisms are exactly what is expected from a DA marine.
Because each chapter acts independently, it wuld be quite easy for Cypher to fabricate a story which would seem feasible to whichever imperial branch he is fighting with.

Although depending on the Fallens views on Chaos the loyalists in question may see the Fallens armour and start shooting.

 Exergy wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I think I should rephrase my question;
How would non-DA Spehss Mureens react to finding SMs bearing the DA symbol, in ancient and black power armour (as opposed to the current white or green), in single or small groups?
You would think if say a Space Wolf met one it'd be along the lines of "Hang on, hang on... Why isn't this fella down for a duel? And why is he dressed completely different from the other Dark Angels?"
Even though most SMs are loyal and unquestioning to their superiors, they are generally a little suspicious of other chapters.

Most space marines don't know what color dark angels usually paint their armor. Space marines don't have networking events where they all gather together and shake hands, eat and drink together and comment on each other's armor color. They are born, trained, eat, sleep and fight with their chapter. When they march into battle all they see are the enemy.
Even so there are the deathwing in white, the greenwing in green, and the ravenwing in black plus doezens of successors in every color imaginable.
That's the thing.

So they meat one of the fallen. Hmm black armor, lots of black armored loyalists, no extra reason for concern. Hmm strange insignia somewhat similar to dark angels(not sure every space marine would even know a DA insignia), probably either DA or a DA successor. Hmm armor seems old, guess these guys don't live near a forge world or have been in some heavy fighting.

I'd imagine they'd still do a bit of basic history training - sure, there's over a thousand chapters, but remembering the first founding's insignias would rank pretty high amongst whatever history they'd get. I guess they'd just imagine they're Ravenwing actually now you mention it Cheers!

I imagine, among the Librarius at the very LEAST they do study Space Marine herealdry. no one will know it all, but I imagine at the very least signfcigent chapters and chapters located in the general "sphere of operations" are going to be known.

 Kain wrote:
The Grey Knights know, and they don't really care.

The ultimate irony of the hunt for the fallen is that ultimately the wider Imperium wouldn't care even if they knew and few would think less of them for it. All the shame and disgrace is entirely in the Dark Angels' own heads.

This is very clever.

Because if you think about it, a lot of loyalist Space Marine Chapters had people who turned to Chaos. The Dark Angels thing about the Fallen is just a crazy obsession, you're right.

The rest of the Imperium just would think the fallen are Chaos Space Marines or garden-variety Heretics.

Imperium does not know, only the Dark Angels do. That's how the official fluff goes, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good number of Inquisitors and fellow Chapter Masters have figured it out over the 10,000 years the DA have been hunting Fallen.

IoM in general wouldn't care that much, the DA are actively rooting out heretics harmful to the Imperium. Their real issue with the DA is how they always go off and do their own thing.

IIRC, in one of the Space Wolf novels, a plot is that Ragnar helps some Dark Angels apprehend a fallen. He never realizes it's a Fallen and just assumes it's a generic chaos marine.

And yea, Draigo never says it explicitly but his threatening tone on the matter and Azrael's reaction (where Az sends the entire Dark Angels chapter to help the Grey Knights after Draigo's threat) shows that the Grey Knights either know or at least "believe beyond a reasonable doubt". Draigo basically said to Az when Az refused to send any Dark Angels to help that through the course of their history and operations, the Grey Knights have captured and interrogated many "interesting" individuals or something like that.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Hmm strange insignia somewhat similar to dark angels(not sure every space marine would even know a DA insignia), probably either DA or a DA successor.

I'd imagine they'd still do a bit of basic history training - sure, there's over a thousand chapters, but remembering the first founding's insignias would rank pretty high amongst whatever history they'd get. I guess they'd just imagine they're Ravenwing actually now you mention it Cheers!

yes, but look at all the DA model range. There are so many different hereldry and insignia that represent the Dark Angels.

I suppose the fallen would not be running around with a broken sword on their shoulder, but then, do other space marines know what the broken sword represents? I imagine that is something they leave out of what they tell all the other chapters, so I doubt that other chapters would really focus on it. "Hmm insignia that looks like DA but the sword is not broken; still DA are obsessed with swords, probably a DA successor. "

Did only read the OP, don't know if that has been already said.

Cypher doesn't have a Pre-Heresy color scheme. His armor is the same green as the loyalist Dark Angels. Also: only Mark VIII is Post-Heresy.
Aside from that: Cypher is a master of disguise and changes his iconography to fit his goals and appearance.
He was even an inquisitor for a while (or replaced one and acted as him).

Very much disagree with the idea that Space Marines wouldn't recognize a Dark Angel on sight (nothing to do with Cypher specifically though, since he adopts disguises so often). The Space Marines have a lot in common with the chivalric orders of medieval history (Templars, Hospitallers, etc.) and thus heraldry is an important field of knowledge. A fellow Marine's heraldry is a way to tell at a glance his allegiance, history, and capabilities. This kind of split-second recognition is important for establishing contact in chaotic battle situations, which are kind of Marines' specialty. I would guess that the average Battle Brother would be expected to recognize the colors and symbology of all the First Founding chapters (both due to their frequent deployment in the worst war zones and as reverence for their figurative ancestors), as well as those of any Chapter likely to be operating in the same theater.

Hanskrampf wrote:
Did only read the OP, don't know if that has been already said.

Cypher doesn't have a Pre-Heresy color scheme. His armor is the same green as the loyalist Dark Angels. Also: only Mark VIII is Post-Heresy.
Aside from that: Cypher is a master of disguise and changes his iconography to fit his goals and appearance.
He was even an inquisitor for a while (or replaced one and acted as him).

The Voice of the Emperor (Cypher) is described as wearing ancient black power armour. However, he does appear in artwork as wearing post-HH DA colours.

 Bludbaff wrote:
Very much disagree with the idea that Space Marines wouldn't recognize a Dark Angel on sight (nothing to do with Cypher specifically though, since he adopts disguises so often). The Space Marines have a lot in common with the chivalric orders of medieval history (Templars, Hospitallers, etc.) and thus heraldry is an important field of knowledge. A fellow Marine's heraldry is a way to tell at a glance his allegiance, history, and capabilities. This kind of split-second recognition is important for establishing contact in chaotic battle situations, which are kind of Marines' specialty. I would guess that the average Battle Brother would be expected to recognize the colors and symbology of all the First Founding chapters (both due to their frequent deployment in the worst war zones and as reverence for their figurative ancestors), as well as those of any Chapter likely to be operating in the same theater.

but there must be chapters they know nothing about. Their are chapters that were created, fought died and now no one knows anything about. So upon seeing some marines with something that looks something like DA, most marines would assume DA or DA successor, but they wouldnt automatically know "o they are pre heresy DA"


It is also possible that the fallen have in the last 10,000 years changed their heraldry slightly to confuse and obscure who they are. If I was being hunted by genetically engineered super SM torture freaks I might do the same.

 Exergy wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
Very much disagree with the idea that Space Marines wouldn't recognize a Dark Angel on sight (nothing to do with Cypher specifically though, since he adopts disguises so often). The Space Marines have a lot in common with the chivalric orders of medieval history (Templars, Hospitallers, etc.) and thus heraldry is an important field of knowledge. A fellow Marine's heraldry is a way to tell at a glance his allegiance, history, and capabilities. This kind of split-second recognition is important for establishing contact in chaotic battle situations, which are kind of Marines' specialty. I would guess that the average Battle Brother would be expected to recognize the colors and symbology of all the First Founding chapters (both due to their frequent deployment in the worst war zones and as reverence for their figurative ancestors), as well as those of any Chapter likely to be operating in the same theater.

but there must be chapters they know nothing about. Their are chapters that were created, fought died and now no one knows anything about. So upon seeing some marines with something that looks something like DA, most marines would assume DA or DA successor, but they wouldnt automatically know "o they are pre heresy DA"


It is also possible that the fallen have in the last 10,000 years changed their heraldry slightly to confuse and obscure who they are. If I was being hunted by genetically engineered super SM torture freaks I might do the same.

They have slightly different heraldry - they seem to have red swords with wings and in general they don't have the Calibanite knightly heraldry on their other shoulder pad as they were almost all Terrans.

After 10k years, it's hard to keep a secret. So the real problem boils down to who else knows it.

The IoM maintains control by fear and sheer brutality. Any secret worth keeping is one that will bind you to the will of another once they know it. This was highlighted when the GK told the DA to show up... and they did.

It's a safe bet that at least some in the Inquisition know as well. Although they wouldn't out them - there's no reason to. After all, if you can cause an entire chapter to turn up in force just by saying a few words then that's a card you want to keep at the ready. So as long as the DAs keep showing up then their "secret" is safe. More to the point, the IoM is already stretched pretty thin so the Inquisition would absolutely want the DA chapter to continue tracking down an unknown number of marines that were scattered through time and space. If the DA continue believing they have to, then all the better as it means other resources don't need to be dedicated to that task.