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So with the new 7th edition stripping skimmers off their jink save, do you think this is a huge gut punch to Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons etc.?

Tau and Eldar especially relied on their 4+ holofields/d-pods to move out in the open and continue raining down firepower either in the form of Railguns, Prism Cannons or Wave Serpents unleashing everything.

Okay, these guys can take a nerf. Perhaps 6+ default jink (5+ with holo/d-pod) would have done the trick instead of 4+ (3+ with holo/d-pod) but snapshots. If you are using your skimmers as transports and dont care much about shooting compared to getting your troops where you need them to be, then you're benefiting a lot from the new jink rules. But if you are using your skimmers as gunships, then you'll have to go back to hugging terrain now...

Space Marine landspeeders took a hit as well and are really easy to down now.

What about Dark Eldar? Their paper thin skimmers need that jink and now they dont have it.

Necrons have AV13 until they get glanced, from then on they're very fragile too.

It's ridiculously easy to down 12/12/10 skimmers with 3 HPs now, isnt it?

They can still choose to jink for the save.

It wasn't stripped, it was changed.

Additionally, if I'm understanding this right, Wave Serpents can now have a 3+ jink save with holofields I believe, which is also upgraded to a 2+ if turbo-boosting...correct me if I'm wrong on any of those points.

Firing snap shots with the 7+ shots it has (likely TL with the Scatter Laser) is a bit of a nerf, but you got buffed durability.

And they score now.

I think the Wave Serpent will be just fine.

*More Editing* Further, they're no worse off than non-skimmer vehicles. At least skimmers have the option to take a cover save at all times when it suits them. Treaded vehicles have to rely on terrain or get nothing at all.

So no, skimmers are not done for.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So with the new 7th edition stripping skimmers off their jink save, do you think this is a huge gut punch to Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons etc.?

Tau and Eldar especially relied on their 4+ holofields/d-pods to move out in the open and continue raining down firepower either in the form of Railguns, Prism Cannons or Wave Serpents unleashing everything.

Okay, these guys can take a nerf. Perhaps 6+ default jink (5+ with holo/d-pod) would have done the trick instead of 4+ (3+ with holo/d-pod) but snapshots. If you are using your skimmers as transports and dont care much about shooting compared to getting your troops where you need them to be, then you're benefiting a lot from the new jink rules. But if you are using your skimmers as gunships, then you'll have to go back to hugging terrain now...

The Wave Serpent needed to be taken down a peg or two, and for their costs, the Tau vehicles were a little too good too. This change was, in my opinion, aimed primarily at them. This levels them out a little bit.

Space Marine landspeeders took a hit as well and are really easy to down now.

No real change there. They were always clownishly easy to drop. Given their ludicrously low cost and high firepower, I don't think they really got that raw of a deal.

What about Dark Eldar? Their paper thin skimmers need that jink and now they dont have it.

Ten points gets them an invulnerable save. Don't get me wrong--that upgrade just basically became mandatory. Hopefully we'll see some tasty new business in the new codex to compensate for our transports getting boned.

Necrons have AV13 until they get glanced, from then on they're very fragile too.

It's ridiculously easy to down 12/12/10 skimmers with 3 HPs now, isnt it?

Necrons and Space Marines probably have to best claim to being offended by the changes. (Followed by DE.) But I still think they will, overall, be fine. They'll get hit more. But they'll blow up far less.

 Blacksails wrote:
They can still choose to jink for the save.

It wasn't stripped, it was changed.

Additionally, if I'm understanding this right, Wave Serpents can now have a 3+ jink save with holofields I believe, which is also upgraded to a 2+ if turbo-boosting...correct me if I'm wrong on any of those points.

Firing snap shots with the 7+ shots it has (likely TL with the Scatter Laser) is a bit of a nerf, but you got buffed durability.

And they score now.

I think the Wave Serpent will be just fine.

*More Editing* Further, they're no worse off than non-skimmer vehicles. At least skimmers have the option to take a cover save at all times when it suits them. Treaded vehicles have to rely on terrain or get nothing at all.

So no, skimmers are not done for.

Turbo boosting does not grant anymore jink save then non turbo boosting (page 63 BRB 7th edition)

No.

Eldar and Tau can take their respective +1 cover AND Ignore Dangerous Terrain tests. Park the vehicle in a ruin, instant 3+ cover save. (Unless the vehicle always needs 25% and doesn't benefit on how ruins are described. But the concept still applies).

Also, since Devilfish and Wave Serpents will be super scoring now, when taken in the troops slot, you're going to see them be even more focused on staying alive. Scatter Lasers twinlink their weaponry, thus making it less of a hit. Marker Lights can help devilfish... if you wanted to shoot one for some reason?

Anni Barges are loving it because snap firing makes them BS4 instead of something like BS8. Ghost Arks snap firing? Oh,... Darn...

DE have invulns, the heldrakes of the skimmer world.

So yea, Land Speeder and Bike Armies are all getting knocked down a peg. A few other random units, too. It's a change that doesn't really seem to do much on paper. Play testing will show further.

My tanks haven't got a jink save since forever. You find ways to play around it.
At least skimmers have options to negate dying completely without any say in the matter.
Plus they can jink turn 1. So I think having the option to even try to not give up first blood is a buff.

Biggest hit is space marine bikers, since their jink was basically their invul if their armor failed. Now if they get it, yea skilled rider given out like candy for some reason makes it a 3+ cover, but now they lose their precious BS4 the following turn.

Almost a sidebuff for Tau. My piranha wall is less killy than before but now theyre more difficult to get rid of barring an assault, which is their whole point anyway is to be a speed bump you either have to assault, or waste big guns on you'd rather fire at my suits/tanks. Only time its truely bad for me is if i want to fire my hammerhead blasts (subs or ion charged up) i cant jink before hand.

Serpents maybe less destructive now , but they got tougher.
We don't know how the shield is going to be FAQed yet. But with explosions on +7 only and with a +3 or +4 jink save , they will be very good at scoring.

why does the shield need to be faq'd? afaik it doesnt affect jink at all, only turning pens on a 2+ into a glance

I was told that there are no pens no more. Just one table and it is very hard to blow up a serpent in a single shot , if it can't get pened.

That sounds like another of the very many rumors of 7th ed that spawns out of nothing. The only change that actually happened that was going around was the Jink change going to a 4+ and forcing the model to snap fire if they use it....which was in a WD so its not even a rumor.

Vehicles are a little harder to explode, but are equally easy to wreck. Explodes are on a D6 result of a 7 when you pen the armor, rather than a 6. Opened top, AP2 and AP1 still add to this result, meaning a lowly Rhino cannot explode by an AP3 or worse weapon under any circumstance, but an ork Trukk can still pop on a 6 since its open-topped.

you still glance/pen the armor as normal. Its just the chart that changed. The other effects were tweaked but basically same idea.

Only rumor i heard i severely was hoping was true was MC were fearless by default - nope, in fact they got nerfed not buffed lol. Still lethal though.

 Xerics wrote:

Turbo boosting does not grant anymore jink save then non turbo boosting (page 63 BRB 7th edition)

Good to know, thanks.

Jink may put it down a little, but the uncontestable scoring wave serpent brought it back up.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Necrons have AV13 until they get glanced, from then on they're very fragile too.

Until penetrated. And Tesla-totting skimmers will like even more

Tau are supposed to have markerlights that will help the snap shot problem (key word supposed to. Most of mine end up dead by turn 2...) so if the magical markerlights actually stay alive for some people then they can help things a lot. And as it's been said, park the thing in cover and huggle that d-pod, you're just fine.

Try drones. Little more expensive, especially if you add a commander to the mix, but barring bad dice you can use the drone's jetpack to go in and out of sight to keep them alive longer, plus theyre a little more robust on their own.

Ive been mixing my buffmander into a missilepod crisis team, with 8 marker drones. Buffmander tanks anything that wont ID him, which case he LoS's to a drone. Probably going to trim the drone count down though since thats 8 BS5 twinlinked relentless markerlights lol they ALWAYS add 8 marks to a unit, which is a bit excessive even for seeker missiles. In theory, you can just run a regular missilepod suits and just have the drones be BS2 to save on buffmander costs, but at that point i think i'd rather just bring a squad of drones on their own lol.

While marks buff up snapshots, they still dont let you fire blasts if you were snapshotting. So subs rounds or charged ion blasts on a hammerhead after jinking are not a thing sadly.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So with the new 7th edition stripping skimmers off their jink save, do you think this is a huge gut punch to Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons etc.?

Tau and Eldar especially relied on their 4+ holofields/d-pods to move out in the open and continue raining down firepower either in the form of Railguns, Prism Cannons or Wave Serpents unleashing everything.

Okay, these guys can take a nerf. Perhaps 6+ default jink (5+ with holo/d-pod) would have done the trick instead of 4+ (3+ with holo/d-pod) but snapshots. If you are using your skimmers as transports and dont care much about shooting compared to getting your troops where you need them to be, then you're benefiting a lot from the new jink rules. But if you are using your skimmers as gunships, then you'll have to go back to hugging terrain now...

Space Marine landspeeders took a hit as well and are really easy to down now.

What about Dark Eldar? Their paper thin skimmers need that jink and now they dont have it.

Necrons have AV13 until they get glanced, from then on they're very fragile too.

It's ridiculously easy to down 12/12/10 skimmers with 3 HPs now, isnt it?

I think it's actually gotten better for necrons.

Annihilation barge:

Used to be: 5+ for AP3 to explode it on a pen. 5+ jink save = one weapon fires full BS. 4+ jink save = all weapons snap fire

Now: 6+ for AP 3 to explode it on a pen. 4+ jink save that you can declare if you want to use, penalty: must snapfire.

A tesla destructor snap firing reduces its average hits from 4.8 to 2.6. So, I think it can handle it pretty well.


The ghost ark is in a similar condition, but if the facing rules are still the same, then I am most likely going to use the +1 cover save rule for forcing an enemy to shoot at a facing they're not actually facing. The ghost ark is so narrow it can be very easy to park it with its front facing towards an enemy but completely obscured behind cover with its side visible. Allowing you to shoot them as its open topped but receive a 3+ cover save.

i happen to know from experiencing it first hand, that damn barge firing snaps is not a problem. That thing still lays the damage even without its BS. Its usually my primary target if there isnt any Wraiths visible. Definitely a buff in every way for that thing lol

No Chicken Little they are not, other's (hell the first reply even) have adequately explained why this is so I feel no further need to comment.

Makumba wrote:
I was told that there are no pens no more. Just one table and it is very hard to blow up a serpent in a single shot , if it can't get pened.

Nope, there are still glances and pens. The big change to vehicles in general is that "Explodes!" is on a 7+, not a 6, meaning that you need to have AP 1 or 2 to destroy them in one shot.

sonicaucie wrote:
A tesla destructor snap firing reduces its average hits from 4.8 to 2.6. So, I think it can handle it pretty well.

TL Tesla Destructor hits 5.333 times on average at BS 4 and 3.667 on average when snapfiring.

For skimmers the rules traded damage out (worse in 7th ed) for durability (better in the 7th ed).
Its actually not a bad deal. Serpents were overpowered in the 6th and my Necron skimmers are quite happy with the rule change.
As said, Bikers go a hit. Use them to either turbo boost or charge.

 TheKbob wrote:


Eldar and Tau can take their respective +1 cover AND Ignore Dangerous Terrain tests.

That part isn't quite right. The Tau skimmer gets to park in a ruin for a 3+, as the Disruption Pod upgrade gives them +1 cover save no matter what, where as the Holo-Field upgrade for the Eldar gives +1 to their Jink save. This is a subtle difference, but important. Make sure your opponent knows the difference too, as we don't need wave serpents with 3+ in ruins without hurting their shooting.

From a Necron perspective, only the Ghost Ark sees the new rule as a raw deal, being both a skimmer and open topped troop transport, as you want to get it close. If people start running more vehicles it still will not be a bad unit.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:


Eldar and Tau can take their respective +1 cover AND Ignore Dangerous Terrain tests.

That part isn't quite right. The Tau skimmer gets to park in a ruin for a 3+, as the Disruption Pod upgrade gives them +1 cover save no matter what, where as the Holo-Field upgrade for the Eldar gives +1 to their Jink save. This is a subtle difference, but important. Make sure your opponent knows the difference too, as we don't need wave serpents with 3+ in ruins without hurting their shooting.

Yeah, might want to check the rules to make sure you know what you're talking about before you go online and "correct" people. Holo-fields are +1 cover save as long as the vehicle moved.

 Thud wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:


Eldar and Tau can take their respective +1 cover AND Ignore Dangerous Terrain tests.

That part isn't quite right. The Tau skimmer gets to park in a ruin for a 3+, as the Disruption Pod upgrade gives them +1 cover save no matter what, where as the Holo-Field upgrade for the Eldar gives +1 to their Jink save. This is a subtle difference, but important. Make sure your opponent knows the difference too, as we don't need wave serpents with 3+ in ruins without hurting their shooting.

Yeah, might want to check the rules to make sure you know what you're talking about before you go online and "correct" people. Holo-fields are +1 cover save as long as the vehicle moved.

So Eldar skimmers keep on wobbling?

 Sir Arun wrote:
So with the new 7th edition stripping skimmers off their jink save, do you think this is a huge gut punch to Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons etc.?

Tau and Eldar especially relied on their 4+ holofields/d-pods to move out in the open and continue raining down firepower either in the form of Railguns, Prism Cannons or Wave Serpents unleashing everything.

Okay, these guys can take a nerf. Perhaps 6+ default jink (5+ with holo/d-pod) would have done the trick instead of 4+ (3+ with holo/d-pod) but snapshots. If you are using your skimmers as transports and dont care much about shooting compared to getting your troops where you need them to be, then you're benefiting a lot from the new jink rules. But if you are using your skimmers as gunships, then you'll have to go back to hugging terrain now...

Space Marine landspeeders took a hit as well and are really easy to down now.

What about Dark Eldar? Their paper thin skimmers need that jink and now they dont have it.

Necrons have AV13 until they get glanced, from then on they're very fragile too.

It's ridiculously easy to down 12/12/10 skimmers with 3 HPs now, isnt it?

Not really - Wave Serpents are arguably better - they might have slightly less if they have to jink but still retain the ability to slaughter other transports, are incredibly durable and now super scoring as well!

Its a lot easier to take down 11/11/10 non skimmers than 12/12/10 skimmers with jink, holofields, fast, serpent shield.

Dark Eldar -well our flicker fields work just fine - the template against open topped is nasty - and as bad against orks - which of course are not in 12/1210 super durable gunships are they?

Ratflinger wrote:
From a Necron perspective, only the Ghost Ark sees the new rule as a raw deal, being both a skimmer and open topped troop transport, as you want to get it close. If people start running more vehicles it still will not be a bad unit.

I never put my warriors in their ghost arks anyway. They're durable enough with a resorb and the ghost ark's repair ability.

I forget, do vehicles get cover from area terrain? Seems like Sensor Spines should now be an auto-include on Tau vehicles.

RogueRegault wrote:
I forget, do vehicles get cover from area terrain? Seems like Sensor Spines should now be an auto-include on Tau vehicles.

I don't believe there is area terrain any more?