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Anyone else notice that you no longer have to snapshot if you fire an ordinance weapon? So defilers and Leman russ' just got better! Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way the new rules have it stated.


On a side note, how many of you actually think that there will be a FAQ to prevent that ridiculous daemon factory list from operating the way it currently is? Frontline gaming had a 7th batrep, and in one turn the daemons added 500 more points of daemons with these powers. Turn one they had 35 warp points without counting the extra d6 points.

You do have to fire snapshots, it's just in the vehicle section, just before Vehicles Weapons & Line of Sight.

Vehicles & Ordnance weapons, page 73.

And, yes, the Daemon Factory list is stupid.

Daemon factory will probably either be errata'd or house ruled to death because its THAT glaringly broken right now.

As for the ordnance, and many other rules in this edition, you need to check both sides of the situation for what happens. Theres a lot of rules you have to look at two sections to get your answer, such as the challenge wound spillover rule (more specifically can the unit not in the challenge generate hits if there isnt a unit to swing at outside the challenge...which is yes case you were wondering). Ordnance didnt change at all outside gaining a benefit from the lack of mutli-level terrain + blasts rule, since afaik all ordnance are blasts anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
afaik all ordnance are blasts anyway.

Hellstrike Missiles would like a word

No idea what those are or who has them lol

There's a Laser Destroyer Array next to that Hellstrike too.

Honestly I think people are massively overreacting to the Daemon Factory list...

That batrep as mentioned elsewhere was a joke, as the Marine army was pretty much set-up to fail horribly.
Try that BS against a real army like IG/AM, Eldar, Dark Eldar or Tau who can just obliterate daemonic units wholesale with their shooting, or Orks, 'Nids, Beast-rush DE and such who can swamp them in combat... Or how about GK's bringing in some fancy Interceptors to turn 1 shunt & cast mass Warp Quake everywhere near the summoners?!

Besides, if a Daemon list is spending ALL of it's Warp Charges to mass summon, it's doing pretty much 0 damage on turn 1, and only minimal damage on turn 2, because it has nothing left to cast it's shooting/augment powers.
Meanwhile there's a whole enemy army that gets a free pass to blow chunks out of it.

Play some actual games. Summoning isn't balls out broken or auto-win unless you go out of your way to make it/allow it to be.

And barring insane dice, each of those summons takes the fire from 1-2 of my units depending which ones are able to shoot at it effectively. And since they were free, and considered scoring for some reason, i have to deal with them because they are of no value other than choke me up and contest objectives. Im more worried about that than any potential damage the summons may do. Summon 10 bloodletters 2-3 times a turn and nothing else, thats going to take most of my firepower to get rid of before they assault and bind me up.

I'm sorry but anyone suggesting daemon factory lists aren't an issue must be playing some other game.
Summoning 2-3 units of 10 a turn is a massive issue.
Barring AM which can spam sufficient guns I don't think there is any army with enough firepower to cope with it.
It's basic rules if attrition and it's effectively ignoring losses for one side (or both).
I'm sure someone with the knowledge could math it out.
Unless I'm mistaken on the rules slightly.
I play Tau and bar spamming firewarriors or Kroot I don't think I can pump out enough shots to take out all those new daemons on top of the existing. And at that point it's list tailoring

Boniface wrote:
I'm sorry but anyone suggesting daemon factory lists aren't an issue must be playing some other game.

Don't worry, it's the same kind of people who said four Riptides weren't a big deal when the Farsight Enclaves came out because without proper support they're not efficient. Then NOVA rolled around and O'vesa star became a household brand.

When someone properly breaks this Daemon business, they'll be calling it "cheesy OP WAAC BS" instead of gimmicky overrated silliness.

Just give it time.

Boniface wrote:

I play Tau and bar spamming firewarriors or Kroot I don't think I can pump out enough shots to take out all those new daemons on top of the existing. And at that point it's list tailoring

I feel the same way. With things like the Dataslate Deamon Prince getting to toss around invisibility and all the invul saves getting buffed up it really seems like it's almost impossible to put out that volume of fire into units that'll just get spawned again next turn. I don't even remember them talking about the Warpstorm results in any of those games either.

I am leaning towards spamming a lot of troops and Piranha at this rate.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
No idea what those are or who has them lol

A hellstrike missile is a single shot ordinance krak missile with 72" range found in pairs on valkyries. They're really bad.

Perhaps a endless swarm tyranid list could work against it, bare minimimum just fit as many of those formations as possible along with possibly a trygon for the subterranean assualt hole for when your swarms of gaunts come back from the dead.

You could pretty much play unbound at that point since endless swarms are not superscoring (they are not in the detachment).

Tyranids vs Daemons: The Endless War!

Once this battle starts, it will never end...





...until turn 5 when it ends.

Spoletta wrote:
You could pretty much play unbound at that point since endless swarms are not superscoring (they are not in the detachment).

I was not aware of that, that is a real shame though. Do the summoned daemons count as superscoring or not since they weren't in the detachment?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Daemon factory will probably either be errata'd or house ruled to death because its THAT glaringly broken right now.

As for the ordnance, and many other rules in this edition, you need to check both sides of the situation for what happens. Theres a lot of rules you have to look at two sections to get your answer, such as the challenge wound spillover rule (more specifically can the unit not in the challenge generate hits if there isnt a unit to swing at outside the challenge...which is yes case you were wondering). Ordnance didnt change at all outside gaining a benefit from the lack of mutli-level terrain + blasts rule, since afaik all ordnance are blasts anyway.

YEah, just like flyers on 6th... oh wait...

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
You could pretty much play unbound at that point since endless swarms are not superscoring (they are not in the detachment).

I was not aware of that, that is a real shame though. Do the summoned daemons count as superscoring or not since they weren't in the detachment?

I'm pretty sure they are not.

Spoletta wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
You could pretty much play unbound at that point since endless swarms are not superscoring (they are not in the detachment).

I was not aware of that, that is a real shame though. Do the summoned daemons count as superscoring or not since they weren't in the detachment?

I'm pretty sure they are not.

Well at least thats a silver lining, but it is going to be a nightmare trying to remember which of the unit are supercoring and which are not in a daemon factory list. But at least it is something to focus your fire on.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Honestly I think people are massively overreacting to the Daemon Factory list...

That batrep as mentioned elsewhere was a joke, as the Marine army was pretty much set-up to fail horribly.
Try that BS against a real army like IG/AM, Eldar, Dark Eldar or Tau who can just obliterate daemonic units wholesale with their shooting, or Orks, 'Nids, Beast-rush DE and such who can swamp them in combat... Or how about GK's bringing in some fancy Interceptors to turn 1 shunt & cast mass Warp Quake everywhere near the summoners?!

Besides, if a Daemon list is spending ALL of it's Warp Charges to mass summon, it's doing pretty much 0 damage on turn 1, and only minimal damage on turn 2, because it has nothing left to cast it's shooting/augment powers.
Meanwhile there's a whole enemy army that gets a free pass to blow chunks out of it.

Play some actual games. Summoning isn't balls out broken or auto-win unless you go out of your way to make it/allow it to be.

I watched a batrep of Tau vs Demons at 1850pts. The Tau player killed 2,200 pts of Demons and still lost. That's how bad it is.

Then add Be'lakor to your army... now you have Teenage Mutant Ninja Daemons.

Despite that Tau player killing off 2200 pts of Daemons in an 1850 pt game, I'm betting the Daemon player still had 2500 pts of them left.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Daemon factory will probably either be errata'd or house ruled to death because its THAT glaringly broken right now.

As for the ordnance, and many other rules in this edition, you need to check both sides of the situation for what happens. Theres a lot of rules you have to look at two sections to get your answer, such as the challenge wound spillover rule (more specifically can the unit not in the challenge generate hits if there isnt a unit to swing at outside the challenge...which is yes case you were wondering). Ordnance didnt change at all outside gaining a benefit from the lack of mutli-level terrain + blasts rule, since afaik all ordnance are blasts anyway.

YEah, just like flyers on 6th... oh wait...

flyers were fine in 6th.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Daemon factory will probably either be errata'd or house ruled to death because its THAT glaringly broken right now.

As for the ordnance, and many other rules in this edition, you need to check both sides of the situation for what happens. Theres a lot of rules you have to look at two sections to get your answer, such as the challenge wound spillover rule (more specifically can the unit not in the challenge generate hits if there isnt a unit to swing at outside the challenge...which is yes case you were wondering). Ordnance didnt change at all outside gaining a benefit from the lack of mutli-level terrain + blasts rule, since afaik all ordnance are blasts anyway.

YEah, just like flyers on 6th... oh wait...

flyers were fine in 6th.

Not when 6th edition first started, few armies had access to the then over powered fliers or viable AA support. That did improve as more and more new codexs were released that gave answers to fliers.

Boniface wrote:

I watched a batrep of Tau vs Demons at 1850pts. The Tau player killed 2,200 pts of Demons and still lost. That's how bad it is.

Sorry to completely disagree with you on this Experiment but yes there are various factors which will influence the game but I think regardless of those factors if one army is killing more points worth of models than the agreed limit on the game something has gone horribly wrong with the game, win or lose.
I can see the narrative and reason behind it (from a fluff perspective), heck I can even see feeling elated if I was in this position and somehow managed to win.
Despite any and all posts I've put I'm all for change in the game I just think there has to be a point where someone says "something seems amiss here."

Although I suppose it's not that different to Nids just more prolific.

Experiment 626 wrote:
- were the Horrors (if any) also summoning?
Odds are they're not really meant to have Malefic, as our codex specifies they use Discipline of Tzeentch, while the Fantasy book also limits Horrors to only Tzeentch. Horrors have always been extremely limited in their spell selection, and they've almost never had the freedom of choice that even other Tzeentch casters routinely get.

- what was the Tau player targeting in their turn? If they're not actively aiming for the summoning batteries, then they're doing it wrong. How hard is it for Tau of all armies to kill a measly T3/W2 Tzherald who has to wait an entire enemy shooting phase before he can hide in a unit?!

Hate to disagree with someone who surely must have played against Daemons himself and isn't just speaking out of his Theorycrafting position, but these points could use some elaboration.

The codex specifies that Horrors generate their powers from the Change discipline. The exact same wording, font, even position in the format is given to the Heralds of Tzeentch who generate their powers from the Divination and Change discipline. The exact same wording, font, and position also exists on Daemon Princes, who are said to generate their powers from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis. For you to claim that Pink Horrors cannot summon daemons is just an arbitrary prejudice against them with no foundation in the rules for it seeing how every psyker in the game has the same restricted generated list box. So if you concede that Heralds and Daemon Princes of the Chaos Daemons army can summon daemons, then you're as good as saying the Pink Horrors can do the same. There are no differences between them that would indicate or even suggest otherwise. Horrors simply have one default discipline while Heralds come with two. If you wanted to go with your interpretation of the rules, then NO Psyker is capable of casting daemonology as they all have a restricted list specifying what disciplines they may generate from. Considering Chaos Daemons not having access to Daemonology would be rather contradictory to what the rules state, I doubt that's the intended interpretation.

The only thing that can claim otherwise would be a FAQ update, as horrors are not required to select Tzeentch powers. They actually do have freedom of choice! They just happen to have only one discipline to choose from, until now. Lack of freedom of choice would be the marked Chaos Sorcerers who are REQUIRED to take a power from their god's discipline. Chaos Daemons have no such restriction or requirement.

As for the Tau, the heralds aren't important, so by all means murder them. The summoners come from the 20-troop Pink Horror squads which generate 3 warp charges by themselves and have plenty of models to sacrifice. If you're summoning on your Herald, you're begging to lose him to perils. Heralds are only cheap buffers and warp batteries.

I don't know, are you sure that Horrors can take daemonology? I mean.. I don't have the codex nor the new rulebook so I don't know what they're limited to, so I'd rather ask. I'm not talking about rules interpretation and trying to decide what was intended, just the raw wording.

Are they free to choose from any BRB discipline they wish? As far as I remember Daemonology is one of the BRB's "normal" disciplines(but I might be wrong) so..

Not that I see anything wrong about Horrors summoning daemons fluff-wise - they're the magicians there and they're the closest ones(after greater daemons and heralds) to what should be able to do it. I mean.. a cultist psyker/sorcerer with enough cultist followers can summon daemons fluff-wise.. why not horrors then?

On a side note - it'd be awesome if Chaos Space Marines could use cultists as brotherhood of psykers as long as they don't move with only daemonology spells. Extremely fluffy.

Kyutaru wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
- were the Horrors (if any) also summoning?
Odds are they're not really meant to have Malefic, as our codex specifies they use Discipline of Tzeentch, while the Fantasy book also limits Horrors to only Tzeentch. Horrors have always been extremely limited in their spell selection, and they've almost never had the freedom of choice that even other Tzeentch casters routinely get.

- what was the Tau player targeting in their turn? If they're not actively aiming for the summoning batteries, then they're doing it wrong. How hard is it for Tau of all armies to kill a measly T3/W2 Tzherald who has to wait an entire enemy shooting phase before he can hide in a unit?!

Hate to disagree with someone who surely must have played against Daemons himself and isn't just speaking out of his Theorycrafting position, but these points could use some elaboration.

The codex specifies that Horrors generate their powers from the Change discipline. The exact same wording, font, even position in the format is given to the Heralds of Tzeentch who generate their powers from the Divination and Change discipline. The exact same wording, font, and position also exists on Daemon Princes, who are said to generate their powers from Biomancy, Telepathy, and Telekinesis. For you to claim that Pink Horrors cannot summon daemons is just an arbitrary prejudice against them with no foundation in the rules for it seeing how every psyker in the game has the same restricted generated list box. So if you concede that Heralds and Daemon Princes of the Chaos Daemons army can summon daemons, then you're as good as saying the Pink Horrors can do the same. There are no differences between them that would indicate or even suggest otherwise. Horrors simply have one default discipline while Heralds come with two. If you wanted to go with your interpretation of the rules, then NO Psyker is capable of casting daemonology as they all have a restricted list specifying what disciplines they may generate from. Considering Chaos Daemons not having access to Daemonology would be rather contradictory to what the rules state, I doubt that's the intended interpretation.

The only thing that can claim otherwise would be a FAQ update, as horrors are not required to select Tzeentch powers. They actually do have freedom of choice! They just happen to have only one discipline to choose from, until now. Lack of freedom of choice would be the marked Chaos Sorcerers who are REQUIRED to take a power from their god's discipline. Chaos Daemons have no such restriction or requirement.

As for the Tau, the heralds aren't important, so by all means murder them. The summoners come from the 20-troop Pink Horror squads which generate 3 warp charges by themselves and have plenty of models to sacrifice. If you're summoning on your Herald, you're begging to lose him to perils. Heralds are only cheap buffers and warp batteries.

Actually I play Daemons - and a mono Tzeentch army at that!

The point I was trying to make is that we don't know for 100% certainty that Horrors will have access to Daemonology, though I do expect that Greaters, Princes and likely Heralds will get access to it.
However, since 5th edition Fantasy, Horrors have always been restricted to either just Tzeentch spells, or else had specific spells allocated to them depending on their unit size. Granted in 40k they've only been proper psykers since the current codex, (mind you, I never played 2nd so, don't quote me entirely on that!), but they're still limited to just Tzeentch magic.
There's nothing beyond a hope and prayer that hints at Horrors suddenly gaining something they've pretty much never had access to, across either system. Hell, even in the current Fantasy book, Horrors are limited to only Tzeentch magic, while Tzheralds & the LoC get the option of choosing Tzeentch or Metal magic. (and before that, LoC's/DP's/Tzheralds could take an upgrade to give them any rulebook spell lore, while Horrors were left with set Lore of Tzeentch spells!)

Sure this isn't 'proof' that GW won't suddenly turn around and say, "Malefic for everyone - Horrors too, because why not?!!", but as a long time Daemon player, I personally feel that's it's safer to ere on the side of caution and stick to the traditional rules of "Horrors get Tzeentch magic only."