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I have been doing some thinking, and with some of the recent changes, a few things came to mind. For the information presented below, we will assume the army in play is 1850 points, Battle Forged, running a "Standard" Seer Council with 2 Farseers, 8 Warlocks, 4 x 5 man Dire Avenger units in Wave Serpents, Baron Sathonyx, and 1 x 5 man Kabalite Warrior Unit in a Venom with Grisly Trophies.

1. Jink inceases to 4+. This means that Stealth is no longer a must have for the Unit. This opens up a few options. Baharroth and Irillyth now seem like Viable replacements for Baron Sathonyx and the Shard of Anaris. Both Phoenix Lords are Fearles and have the Hit & Run special rule. This will be covered in greater detail further down.

2. You may only fire Snap Shots after Jinking. This nerfs the Singing Spear upgrade a bit as you may need that 2+ cover fairly often if you see a lot of AP 2.

3. Leadership has no bearing on successfully casting a power, and is only used for tests on the Perils of the Warp table. This means that Grisly Trophies are far less usefull.

4. Invisibility took a massive buff. With this power up, anything trying to hit the Council will require a 6, and effectively makes the unit immune to Blast and Template weapons. I havent done the math hammer yet, but it seems this power might be even more worth rolling for than Fortune in certain situations. This, combined with the change to Witchfires and the range increase on Psychic Shriek makes Telepathy a very interesting option for the Council.

5. You can now take as many Detachments as you like at any point level. This is what enables us to fit in either Baharroth or Irillyth. It also opens up the option of a 3rd and 4th Farseer, so long as we maintain 4 Troops choices.

6. Value of Runes of Warding. They still provide +2 to your Deny the Witch rolls on a single power targeting the unit. However, it would seem that they have no effect in regards to Blessings. This is beacuse the when attempting to Deny a Blessing, the rule tells us to aplly no modifiers. In short, they are largely unchanged. That being said, they might actually hold a bit less value now with the nerf to Misfortune and the large dice pool the Council will have for Deny attempts.

7. Value of Runes of Witnessing. Value has increased, as powers are now more difficult to manifest and Grisly Trophies no longer help us in this area. Can be very clutch on a poor roll when casting Invisibility or Fortune.

8. Ghosthelm Mechanics. The Ghosthelm rule is activated when you suffer an unsaved wound from Perils of the Warp. To negate this wound you must immediately expend a Warp Charge Point from your remaining pool. This, however, does not protect you from the other effects on the table, Such as rolling a 1 and failing the LD test.

9. The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan This item as increased greatly in value. If you are looking for a 89% success rate for a Warp Charge 2 power, you will need to throw 6 dice, which will give you a 26% chance of suffering Perils. With the stone reducing the Warp Charge cost of the same power by 1, you only need to throw 3 dice for 87% success rate and a only 7% chance of Perils. For 15 points, this is huge.

So now, with all of these changes in mind, here are some interesting questions regarding the general build of the Council itself.

A. Are Singing Spears worth buying? I would say yes. At 5 points a pop, they are still a steal. We will only be firing snap shots when AP 2 weaponry comes our way anyway.

B. What upgrades are worth buying on the Farseers? I will probably buy the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan everytime now. It just holds so much value for 15 points. Runes of Witnessing seem like a must have as well. I am not 100% sold on Runes of Warding, however. With the nerf to, Misfortune, we no longer have to worry about easy access to negating Fortune. Also, with such a large pool of Warp Charge points, the council should have plenty of dice to deny the scary stuff with. I would probably just take 1, in case of the random, multiple, nasty Witchfires here or there.

C. Is it still worth taking Dark Eldar Allies for the Baron and Grisly Trophies? If you were to take a second Eldar Combined Arms Detachment instead of DE allies, you could replace the Shard of Anaris, the Baron, the Kabalites, and the Venom with either Baharroth or Irillyth, and save a few points in the process.
Lets Start with Baharroth. Pros: Phoenix Lord Statline, Fairly strong in combat, Jump Infantry (just like the Baron), Blind, and if by turn 4, Hit & Run + Fearless are no longer needed, He can Skyleap and no-scatter Deep Strike on an objective turn 5. Cons: Invul is only 4+, no DE Grisly Trophies.
Next up is Irillyth. Pros: Phoenix Lord statline, Very killy in shooting and in Combat, 4+ Cover (2+ with Conceal). Cons: No invul, no DE Grisly Trophies, Jet Pack Infantry (Slower than Jump Infanrty, even more so when charging).
I would say that Baharroth is clearly the better option between the Two Phoenix Lords due to being Jump Infantry. Irillyth being able to move only 6" before he charges slows down the unit too much. This leaves us with an interesting choice; The Baron, or Baharroth.
Lets look at the Baron: Pros: 2+ invul (excellent to tank AP2, ignores cover wounds), +1 to go first, Stealth(Not needed, but can net you 2+ cover without jinking if terrain is giving you a 5+), can bring along Grisly Trophies. Cons: Not an Eternal Warrior and T3 (can be insta-gibbed by S6), lower Initiative(for Sweeping Advances), only 2 wounds, requires Troops tax.
First, I think we need to Look at Grisly Trophies. For 5 points you can reroll the LD test for results of 1,5, and 6 on the Perils table. Seems like a good buy until you factor in the 55 points you pay for the Venom, which will probably be dead by turn 2 anyway. Without the Trophies, LD 8 Warlocks might have an issue. But then again, all of their powers are Warp Charge 1, and even on 3 dice, only have a 7% chance to Peril. Given this, I would drop the venom all together. The 5 Kabalites can hide easily enough on an objective behind LoS blocking terrain, or start in reserve just fine. This puts the Shard of Anaris + Baron + Kabalites at 190 points while Baharroth is 195 points. Almost dead even. I am still leaning towards the Baron due to the 2+ invul, +1 to go first, and the free extra scoring unit, but its nice to know that in situations where allies can not be taken, Baharroth can work just fine.

D. Should I roll for Fortune or Invisibility? Lets start by comparing the rest of the powers from Runes of Fate to the same of Telepathy.
Runes of Fate. Favorable Powers:Guide, Doom, Mind War, Eldrich Storm.
With the new Witchfire rules, Mind War is now likely to hit the target you want, and can now be cast on the same turn as Eldrich Storm. Overall, Runes of Fate is pretty good, with only 2 bad powers (Death Mission and Executioner).
Telepathy. Favorable Powers: Psychic Shriek, Dominate, Terrify, and Shrouding.
Terrify looks mediocre at first glance, but combine it with a Warlock's Horrify, and suddenly the enemy is making a Morale check with -4 LD at the end of the phase. And if they somehow dont fall back, Dominate will insure they do nothing for a turn. Shrouding can be used as a back-up if Conceal fails. Telepathy looks pretty decent as well, also, with only 2 bad powers. (Mental Fortitude, and a gimped version of Hallucination)
Both of the trees have excelent options and seem to be on an equal power level. Now lets compare Fortune to Invisibility directly.
Fortune. Pros: Combined with a 2+ save, this power drastically increases our survivability. Cons: Dependent on 2 other powers going off to maximize its effect (Conceal and Protect).
Invisibility. Pros: Makes the Council immune to Templates and Blasts, Any attack can only hit the Council on a 6 (Shooting and Combat), not dependent on any other power. Cons: Twinlinked, mid strength, high rate of fire weapons will get through and force saves.
Doing some quick math tells me that on a 2+ save, Fortune beats out Invisibility. However, on a 3+ or 4+, Invisibility is the winner. So against bolters, lasguns, shootas, and scatterlasers, Fortune has the slight edge. And against Ignores Cover Lascannon Heavy Weapons Teams, Ignores Cover Plasma/Melta Crisis Suits, MCs in combat, and Power Fists, Invisibility wins out. Seems like an even trade, but then when you remember that Conceal and Protect are more difficult to successfully cast now in 7th, you might find your self at 3+ save more often than before. Numbers aside, being immune to Templates and Blasts alone probably make invisibility more worthwhile most of the time anyway, but I think this choice is really going to come down to the composition of your opponent's army. If you are facing off against a plethora of Blasts, combined with Ignores cover and AP 2 (IG and Tau come to mind), roll for Invisibility. If not, Shoot for Fortune.

E. Now that we can take a second Eldar Detachment below 2000 points, Should I add more Farseers to the Council? I see 2 resonable options here. The first would be to add a single Farseer to try and maximize the chances of getting Fortune OR Invisibility. The second would be to take 2 Additional Farseers and try to get Fortune AND Invisibility. In order to Accomplish this we would have to drop some points out of our list, while still keeping 4 troops choices. The way the points work out, you can drop a single Dire Avenger unit and its Wave Serpent for a unit of 3 Jetbikes, a Council-ready Farseer, and a few points to spare. So with 4 Farseers, you would have 2 x 3 man Jetbike units and 2 x 5 man Dire Avenger units in Wave Serpents. The clear downside is that you just cut your anti-air capabilities in half. However, If you do manage to roll both Fortune and Invisibility, there is probably not a flyer list in the game that could shoot you off the board. The one problem here is competative Necron lists dropping troops on the last turn (if playing the traditional 6th edition missions). But, thats what you would expect with this type of "high risk, high reward" type of playstyle.
There actually is another option here, but it is far from reasonable. If you drop the Last 2 Dire Avenger squads and their Wave Serpents, they can be replaced by 4 x 3 man Jetbike squads, and 2 more Farseers. This would put you at 6 Farseers and 6 x 3 man Jetbike units spread across 3 Combined Arms Detachments. You could pretty much guarantee rolling both powers on that many rolls. You would most definitely want to reserve all of your troops if you took this route and would have to count on their speed to keep them alive. Your Council on the other hand would be an absolute wrecking ball. I cant even imagine all of the insane power combos with that many Farseers. That would be 36 + D6 warpcharges every turn; pretty good for a Battle Forged list. Now is this third option(or the second one for that matter) even viable? Probably not. I see most tournaments banning armies with more than one Combined Arms Detachment, but it is interesting to think about, nonetheless.

So, my fellow Dakkanauts, What are you thoughts on all of this?
(Please hold the hatred! I put a lot of time and effort into this, and would like legitimate input.)

Thanks for this incite, a fun read. I was thinking about running 4 seer in a council, it fits the fluff better and plays better.

Though what I would probably do is

4 seers 8 warlocks
4 units of guardians with BL (sit in cover and try to pop tanks)
2 CH (superb AA, even more so if you can get powers off on them like re roll to hit.)
Any points left would be a WK

I like your analysis, and if a person wnats the jetbike speed then I would say go for it!

I plan to do 5 warlocks and farseer like usual

BUT my 5 man spiritseer group all of which can take telepathy is making me jump for joy!.

Having 18 warp charges though seems like it is going to be a pain in the butt to manage....

Nice list. I'd not play vs it again though. Maybe once just to make sure it's a smelly pile of as it was in 6.

Sounds legit still. With the fact that people are getting ignores cover and psychic powers that do etc. I think invisibility is just the better choice now. However, the cool thing is we can choose. Depending on what we face we will roll for X or Y. So against ignores cover/AP2 spammy armies well go invis route, if not we'll go fortune. Good stuff.

I never ran Seer Council in 6th... and would like your opinion on making it smaller since it seems you guys have some pretty good experience with it. Would 2x Farseers, 6x Warlocks, Baron/Baharroth still work? Or is the "magic #" 8x for Warlocks where they are still strong?

Also, why do you think the singing spears are still worth it? Wasn't the usual build 2/8 of the Warlocks + both farseers with singing spears? I don't think those 20pts are worth it anymore. Maybe they can be used elsewhere? Just theory, no actual experience here but needing snaps to hit with them now seems really painful.

Thoughts on their killing power in 7th? With the spears being neutered as much as they have been due to snaps?

I'm scared about the seer council... how effective is it in light of this:

BRB wrote:"The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

So if I cast fortune, and it does not work (whether DTW or failed the cast - makes no difference), then the other farseer in the same unit cannot cast fortune. Let's look at Warlocks, same issue... protect fails on first cast... now a second warlock in the same unit cannot cast protect now.

So, doubling up on powers within a unit does nothing for you. One I see a lot is a herald with flickerfire, in a unit of pink horrors. that unit can only cast that power one time, instead of twice as in 6th.

or am I reading this wrong, and each psyker counts as a unit for this context?

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I'm scared about the seer council... how effective is it in light of this:

BRB wrote:"The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

So if I cast fortune, and it does not work (whether DTW or failed the cast - makes no difference), then the other farseer in the same unit cannot cast fortune. Let's look at Warlocks, same issue... protect fails on first cast... now a second warlock in the same unit cannot cast protect now.

So, doubling up on powers within a unit does nothing for you. One I see a lot is a herald with flickerfire, in a unit of pink horrors. that unit can only cast that power one time, instead of twice as in 6th.

or am I reading this wrong, and each psyker counts as a unit for this context?

Your reading it right >_< If we somehow split up the farseers and just make 2x seercouncil deathstars... then... well, there's that

 syypher wrote:
Sounds legit still. With the fact that people are getting ignores cover and psychic powers that do etc. I think invisibility is just the better choice now. However, the cool thing is we can choose. Depending on what we face we will roll for X or Y. So against ignores cover/AP2 spammy armies well go invis route, if not we'll go fortune. Good stuff.

I never ran Seer Council in 6th... and would like your opinion on making it smaller since it seems you guys have some pretty good experience with it. Would 2x Farseers, 6x Warlocks, Baron/Baharroth still work? Or is the "magic #" 8x for Warlocks where they are still strong?

Also, why do you think the singing spears are still worth it? Wasn't the usual build 2/8 of the Warlocks + both farseers with singing spears? I don't think those 20pts are worth it anymore. Maybe they can be used elsewhere? Just theory, no actual experience here but needing snaps to hit with them now seems really painful.

Thoughts on their killing power in 7th? With the spears being neutered as much as they have been due to snaps?

* I think the standard is actually 6-8 warlocks. Les warlocks just means a smaller chance of rolling Protect.

* I just have always been a fan of the spears. I think they are worth it because without them, you cant pop transports and charge the unit inside. I take a few more than 4, mainly because this list cant deal with AV13-14 otherwise.

*I think they are a bit less kill now in 7th, but they never have been CC beasts anyway. Its all about multicharges and board control really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I'm scared about the seer council... how effective is it in light of this:

BRB wrote:"The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

So if I cast fortune, and it does not work (whether DTW or failed the cast - makes no difference), then the other farseer in the same unit cannot cast fortune. Let's look at Warlocks, same issue... protect fails on first cast... now a second warlock in the same unit cannot cast protect now.

So, doubling up on powers within a unit does nothing for you. One I see a lot is a herald with flickerfire, in a unit of pink horrors. that unit can only cast that power one time, instead of twice as in 6th.

or am I reading this wrong, and each psyker counts as a unit for this context?

You are indeed correct, and it is a big nerf. Not really for the Farseers, as it is difficult to generate 2 Fortunes in the first place. It hurts the warlocks slightly more.

I always thought the power came from the shooting spears + charges? Even with multi-charges, their witchblades + spears in CC having no AP, what makes the seercouncil really powerful? I understand they are hard to remove in shooting, but is that their main thing they got going then?

S3 (possibly S4) armorbane does rude things to the rear armor of doomed vehicles. Completely surrounding a transport's hull does unpleasant things to a unit attempting to disembark.

A seerstar with protect and fortune will basically never lose combat resolution, and gets I6 for sweeping advance. Not always useful, but it's something.

 syypher wrote:
I always thought the power came from the shooting spears + charges? Even with multi-charges, their witchblades + spears in CC having no AP, what makes the seercouncil really powerful? I understand they are hard to remove in shooting, but is that their main thing they got going then?

the spears are AP - in shooting too. But have a look at the Warlock powers, those are what turn the unit into a beast. A WS3, S3, I3, LD5 Space Marine with 4+ armour is pretty laughable, even for weapons with no AP.

Great thread. Good info here.

I'm thinking my council will be updated to include 3 Farseers typically rolling, one on Telepathy, one on Runes of Fate and one on Divination. I'd reserve the 3rd Divination Seer incase I didn't get Fortune or Invisibility. Baharroth (because I want to take 2-3 units of Hawks anyway), and 6 Warlocks.

Throw in the Spirit stone, 5 spears, Runes of Witnessing for all three.

Gives me 15 Warp charges to work with, and a whole bunch of witchfires.

Remember, only 1 of each power can be cast per unit per turn.
So things likr psychic shriek, eldritch storm, mind war, and all those others become viable options now.

 Arbiter wrote:
Remember, only 1 of each power can be cast per unit per turn.
So things likr psychic shriek, eldritch storm, mind war, and all those others become viable options now.

Just in case invisibility or fortune fail, you needs some means to protect the Council, like a Serpent or two or a WK.

Remember that due to the new order of operation, if you perils and die even if successfully charged the power fails. It makes warlocks MUCH less reliable IMO.

You attempt protect, pass but perils, die. Spell fails, now you can't recast and you don't have a 2+. Fortune still makes them durable, they just aren't as abusive as they were. Which I am actually a fan of.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Remember that due to the new order of operation, if you perils and die even if successfully charged the power fails. It makes warlocks MUCH less reliable IMO.

You attempt protect, pass but perils, die. Spell fails, now you can't recast and you don't have a 2+. Fortune still makes them durable, they just aren't as abusive as they were. Which I am actually a fan of.

The BRB disagrees.

Perils of the Warp" sidebar wrote:Note that suffering Perils of the Warp does not necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest. Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp.

Corollax wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Remember that due to the new order of operation, if you perils and die even if successfully charged the power fails. It makes warlocks MUCH less reliable IMO.

You attempt protect, pass but perils, die. Spell fails, now you can't recast and you don't have a 2+. Fortune still makes them durable, they just aren't as abusive as they were. Which I am actually a fan of.

The BRB disagrees.

Perils of the Warp" sidebar wrote:Note that suffering Perils of the Warp does not necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest. Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp.

Hmmm my bad then. I knew about the wound but not the slain part. I still think they took a big hit though. If you want to ensure protect resovles your going to toss 4 dice at it which has a solid shot of killing him off. Any less and its not as reliable or they can deny it. The biggest hitch now is you can't recast powers. For that reason alone I feel invisibility is the better power now.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I'm scared about the seer council... how effective is it in light of this:

BRB wrote:"The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

Anyone have any idea how this works with runes of battle?
Can a warlock cast Protect and another warlock cast Jinx?

Building a council myself so I'm curious.

id maybe also point out how cool it is to use maledictions and blessing after moving where before it was before.

Opens up alot of cool stuff!

also the fact you can now split warlocks after powers are rolled.

 Destroyer_742 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I'm scared about the seer council... how effective is it in light of this:

BRB wrote:"The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

Anyone have any idea how this works with runes of battle?
Can a warlock cast Protect and another warlock cast Jinx?

Building a council myself so I'm curious.

I dont have the Codex in front of me, but I believe the summary above the Runes of Battle lists them as a single Power with two modes. I would say, given that, the answer is no.

 Destroyer_742 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I'm scared about the seer council... how effective is it in light of this:

BRB wrote:"The most common psychic action is the manifestation of psychic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."

Anyone have any idea how this works with runes of battle?
Can a warlock cast Protect and another warlock cast Jinx?

Building a council myself so I'm curious.

Ya, sadly no. It specifically says its one power with 2 different modes, which you can choose to use.

Corollax wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Remember that due to the new order of operation, if you perils and die even if successfully charged the power fails. It makes warlocks MUCH less reliable IMO.

You attempt protect, pass but perils, die. Spell fails, now you can't recast and you don't have a 2+. Fortune still makes them durable, they just aren't as abusive as they were. Which I am actually a fan of.

The BRB disagrees.

Perils of the Warp" sidebar wrote:Note that suffering Perils of the Warp does not necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest. Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp.

While it does work like this, most of the runes of battle power specifically target the psycher, only. Protect is one such power, granting the psycher and his unit +1 to their armor save. If the warlock dies to perils, sure the power goes off, but there will be no target. The council will be with a 3+ only. If the psycher the power is affecting is removed, the power is essentially nullified.

I may have this totally wrong, but isn't there a difference between Armour Save and Invulnerable Save? Seers don't have armour save in their profile so I always wondered if this made them not benefit from Protect.

The eldar jetbike grants them a 3+ armor save.

This is why I should have read further back in the post. Thanks Corollax.

Optionally, when running the 3rd Farseer you can opt for Sanctic Daemonology for a chance to buff the Council Invul to 3+, add hammerhand (to pose greater risk to high AV targets), have a semi nasty Nova or maybe toss out a little Str D.

Goobi2 wrote:
Optionally, when running the 3rd Farseer you can opt for Sanctic Daemonology for a chance to buff the Council Invul to 3+, add hammerhand (to pose greater risk to high AV targets), have a semi nasty Nova or maybe toss out a little Str D.

Well, no. I'd opt for malefic daemonology instead of the sanctic one.

Pink Horrors are too tempting.

What about Gate of Infinity?

it's not really needed, given the councils mobility, but deep striking it in your opponents deployment zone on turn one is pretty sweet.

Belly wrote:
What about Gate of Infinity?

it's not really needed, given the councils mobility, but deep striking it in your opponents deployment zone on turn one is pretty sweet.

I think its too risky for a rather expensive unit.