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Like everyone else, my local group is having a raging debate over the power level of the Malefic daemonic powers. One of the points that I've brought up is that (outside of a 20-mastery level Daemon list) you are quite possibly giving up far more value than what you are gaining through the summoning. I am, however, not all that great at actually quantifying such things, so I felt it might be useful to hand the idea off to Dakka to see what you guys can do with the concept.

As stated, this isn't intended to cover the high-point "factory" lists, as those are kind of in their own world.

The basic idea, using my Eldar army as an example (since I'm familiar with it) is as follows. I'm running two Farseers and a Warlock, for 7 ML. An average die roll is going to present me with 10 psychic dice to use on my turn. Assume that I've rolled appropriate powers as given (in most cases I'm working with Primaris powers)

Scenario A: I expend 7 dice to cast Summoning, keeping one die in reserve to negate the wound from the guaranteed Perils roll. With the remaining 2 dice I case Guide on a unit in the army (say a 152-point unit of 8 Warp Spiders). The daemons are worth around 100 points. The Spiders' shooting is improved by 50%; we'll call it a 33% increase in effectiveness (this number will vary greatly depending on what they're shooting at). This means that I've gained value of about 150 points.

Scenario B: I expend 2 dice to cast Guide upon the Spiders, 5 dice to cast Prescience on a 122-point unit of Jetbikes (177 points if you include the Warlock with them), with 1 die possibly expended to prevent a Perils wound. With the last 2 dice, I cast Doom upon the target that both units are shooting at. Let's say that re-rolling failed wound rolls is worth the same amount as a failed to-hit roll, so each unit was increased in value by 66%. This means that I gained value of 180-210 points. That's about 15% more value by casting spells to improve my units than simply spawning a new unit (that can't do anything until next turn).

The value gained by casting non-summoning spells is likely far greater than that, depending on the specific powers and targets. If I cast Prescience on a Wraithknight and cast Doom upon a Land Raider (so that he can both shoot it and punch it with re-rolls on everything), what is that worth? If I cast Invisibility, or Fortune on a Deathstar, what is that worth?

Incidentally, that's what I'm asking: a discussion to help further quantify what, exactly, you get out of casting something other than a Malefic summoning power.

Thanks, all!

Its correct to point out that summoning powers probably aren't better than prescience on a good shooting unit, iron arm on a MC or invisibility on anything, provided you have an otherwise standard list. The main thing about regular buffs is that eventually you reach a saturation point, while summoning powers actually get exponentially better the more charges you have dedicated to it.

I think that noone argues that eldar powers are terribly overpowered. Paired with rediculoussly op units.

I'd not tell much about daemon factory yet cause haven't faced them. But statistically, they're more broken in low-point games than in high-point ones imo. With being perfectly reasonable for a 1k point game and a non-spamy list. Around 10-12 warp charges is quite fair. It will result in one summoning with around 30% perils chance if you want to cast the power reliably. And 1-2 other powers. Not that terrible if you have some ranged shooting to deal with them before they get overmassed. Well, if you have something like a greentide, you're screwed, but i think you allready knew that when 6 ed came. Nothing's changing with 7.

I don't think it's worse than termagaunt-factory tyranids before update. And people managed to deal with it somehow.

 koooaei wrote:
I think that noone argues that eldar powers are terribly overpowered. Paired with rediculoussly op units.

I'd not tell much about daemon factory yet cause haven't faced them. But statistically, they're more broken in low-point games than in high-point ones imo. With being perfectly reasonable for a 1k point game and a non-spamy list. Around 10-12 warp charges is quite fair. It will result in one summoning with around 30% perils chance if you want to cast the power reliably. And 1-2 other powers. Not that terrible if you have some ranged shooting to deal with them before they get overmassed. Well, if you have something like a greentide, you're screwed, but i think you allready knew that when 6 ed came. Nothing's changing with 7.

I don't think it's worse than termagaunt-factory tyranids before update. And people managed to deal with it somehow.

termigants do not have invuln saves, termgaunts dont deep strike, tervigons burn out, the psykers dont (they arent guaranteed either but they are technically cheaper than tervigons as well)

Undoubtedly, that's stronger than tervigon spam and a bit more reliable. But other stuff has changed also. Everyone's way more shooty and mobile now. I just say that it's a bit too early to go desperate and rage-quit selling all your models for cheapo.

Btw, ghost helm as it is doesn't negate perils of the warp. It can save you from one wound only.

To be honest, for me it's much more annoying to play vs eldar than vs daemon factory. Simple as that.

wait till you see them summon 3 new units a turn at least...

the other horrible part is if you planned to have a psychic hase kiss it good bye when they have 30+ dispels as well.

watch frontlines battlereport, they summoned 2k worth of troops, and the marines couldnt use one psychic power.

If i get it right, number of dispells is plain d6 without ML additions. So you have around 0 chances of denying a 2 sucksessdul dice power on 6-s. At the same time it's really good for a denial of 1-sucksessful dice power.

30 lesser daemons will need like 20+ warp charges. And will almost guaranteerly result in at least one perils. This very points won't be used to shoot the hell out of you. Or more reliably buff everyone. To be honest, it's not nearly as broken as 2++ rerollable.

In your example A you've gained 100 effective points from turn 2 (assuming a turn 1 summon) until they die (could be 100 points extra per turn for 5 turns if it goes until turn 7), whereas the points gained from a buff are a one time only benefit. So your comparison is flawed in that regard I believe

Yay! You've got 100 points of t3-4 5++ guyz that basically can't shoot and are gona do nothing for at least a turn. As for me, i'd prefer to emidiately kill 50 pts rather than gain 100 pts that are doing nothing. Sure, there are situations where theese guyz are gona be super-useful. Especially since they're scoring. That's annoying for sure but there are way more devastating uses of psy-powers around.

Terror from the Deep wrote:
In your example A you've gained 100 effective points from turn 2 (assuming a turn 1 summon) until they die (could be 100 points extra per turn for 5 turns if it goes until turn 7), whereas the points gained from a buff are a one time only benefit. So your comparison is flawed in that regard I believe

Sure, the Daemons provide X ongoing points. However, I think it's a fair assumption that a buffed up unit is very likely to kill at least that much out of your opponent's army, making the effect a wash (you gaining 100 permanent points vs. them permanently losing 100 points).

Regardless, I think I asked people to please ignore the (Codex Daemon Factory lists for the purposes of the discussion. This is more about the idea of what other armies give up by summoning daemons.

 Magc8Ball wrote:

Terror from the Deep wrote:
In your example A you've gained 100 effective points from turn 2 (assuming a turn 1 summon) until they die (could be 100 points extra per turn for 5 turns if it goes until turn 7), whereas the points gained from a buff are a one time only benefit. So your comparison is flawed in that regard I believe

Sure, the Daemons provide X ongoing points. However, I think it's a fair assumption that a buffed up unit is very likely to kill at least that much out of your opponent's army, making the effect a wash (you gaining 100 permanent points vs. them permanently losing 100 points).

Regardless, I think I asked people to please ignore the (Codex Daemon Factory lists for the purposes of the discussion. This is more about the idea of what other armies give up by summoning daemons.

I don't know about that - what buffs are going to enable a group of 8 warp spiders to do an extra 100 points (or about 5.5 tac marines) in damage? Be interested to see the mathshammer on that... I don't have the weapon profiles handy to check though