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This was discussed in the new 7th FAQ thread but I figure this topic deserves its own thread.

I have a Heldrake still sealed in the box that I was planning to add to my army but I just put it on ebay because that horribly written 7th FAQ smacked everyone's favorite turkey so hard with the nerf bat that it's not even worth taking now IMO. I never really understood all the cries of cheese anyway, it was good but not ZOMG BROKEN. It's a zooming flier, which I have always found difficult to maneuver, and even with turret and torrent it was still hard to hit the targets I wanted. Now Heldrakes can be outmaneuvered by pretty much anything.

The nerfs:
Its weapons is now hull mounted.
Vector strike is now only 1 target for turkeys.

They can still Vector Strike ground targets in 7th. Don't know where you got that part from.

Darn, I wanted to mean No.
You need to put them on the direction of what they want to kill. It's now closer to its points cost (it was a steal back in 6th)

Wait why cant it VS ground targets?

Also besides from that. now the helldrake needs to positioning properly rather then going hurder im gona hit you with by butt fire.

Unless they changed templates and LOS again they should still eat marines for breakfast like usual

 Grimskul wrote:
They can still Vector Strike ground targets in 7th. Don't know where you got that part from.

Yeah my bad, I was thinking of the old rumor, fixed the OP.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Yes.
You need to put them on the direction of what they want to kill. It's now closer to its points cost (it was a steal back in 6th)

If by "closer to its points cost" you mean absolutely worthless now, sure. It's a zooming flier that's already difficult to maneuver, and now even infantry can run away from it easily because it can't turn very well to hit them with its hull mounted weapon. It's not even useful AA against fliers with the autocannon now for that same reason.

Welcome to the world of Dark Angels.

 ZultanQ wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
They can still Vector Strike ground targets in 7th. Don't know where you got that part from.

Yeah my bad, I was thinking of the old rumor, fixed the OP.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Yes.
You need to put them on the direction of what they want to kill. It's now closer to its points cost (it was a steal back in 6th)

If by "closer to its points cost" you mean absolutely worthless now, sure. It's a zooming flier that's already difficult to maneuver, and now even infantry can run away from it easily because it can't turn very well to hit them with its hull mounted weapon. It's not even useful AA against fliers with the autocannon now for that same reason.

I'm not quite sure why you're complaining. Let's compare to a Stormtalon.
Stormtalon: Strafing Run. AV11, 2HP. One TL AssaultCan, one H3 Autocannon. 125pts.
Drake: Daemon (never needs to Jink), AV12, 3HP, Vector Strike, IWND, AP3 Torrent. 170pts
For 45 more points, the Drake has better shooting (against most infantry targets), an AP2 weapon (VS), is immune to Str5 and lower, CAN GET HP BACK, and NEVER NEEDS TO JINK. I'd say that's a steal for 45pts.

 Grimskul wrote:
They can still Vector Strike ground targets in 7th. Don't know where you got that part from.

Does vector strike specifically allow them to wound models that are not in its field of view?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
They can still Vector Strike ground targets in 7th. Don't know where you got that part from.

Yeah my bad, I was thinking of the old rumor, fixed the OP.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Yes.
You need to put them on the direction of what they want to kill. It's now closer to its points cost (it was a steal back in 6th)

If by "closer to its points cost" you mean absolutely worthless now, sure. It's a zooming flier that's already difficult to maneuver, and now even infantry can run away from it easily because it can't turn very well to hit them with its hull mounted weapon. It's not even useful AA against fliers with the autocannon now for that same reason.

I'm not quite sure why you're complaining. Let's compare to a Stormtalon.
Stormtalon: Strafing Run. 2HP. One TL AssaultCan, one H3 Autocannon. 125pts.
Drake: Daemon (never needs to Jink), 3HP, Vector Strike, AP3 Torrent. 170pts
For 45 more points, the Drake has better shooting (against most infantry targets), an AP2 weapon (VS), and NEVER NEEDS TO JINK. I'd say that's a steal for 45pts.

Dont forget the IWND, and besides from straight HP stripping is now harder to kill with single shots.

Anybody it flies over in the movement phase; line of sight has nothing to do with it.

So now its on par with other fliers for power vs cost.

Excluding FW fliers, my tau fliers laugh at the helldrake's demise.

Its still damn killy, as Torrented flamer templates can be difficult to dodge 5+ wounds and god forbid it gets a shot at units shooting through a window, as theyre always bunched up.
Also, isnt it a hover-capable vehicle?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Also, isnt it a hover-capable vehicle?

It has Hover indeed. Quite useful at times, probably going to be even more so if the FAQ stays the way it is currently.

It got nerfed, but it was a deserved nerf.


I still wish it was an overpowered machine of flaming death, but everyone wants a unit in their army.

So it got nerfed hard, but is somewhat harder to kill now. The quad gun also got nerfed, I think my new air defense is let flyers kill what they can with impunity* and hope they don't make back their points.

* unless they hover to turn more than 90. The last storm talon that did that against me was brought down by a krak grenade, lol.

Quite frankly anything that is viewed as "Spam this, win games" - yes this includes my riptides - deserves a nerf. Nothing short of an HQ should be able to do so much lethal damage without proper support, and you usually give HQs the proper support just to make double damn sure no "bad luck rolls" happen to him. EDIT: Ok, and the obvious superheavies/gargantuan/lords of war. Kinda expected to do that much damage.

Least it didnt go the way of Ork walkers. Cant even use them in joke lists theyre so bad (yes they got a slight buff but low HP and AV they can still be glanced to death quite quickly)

No way it's garbage now, it's just no longer broken, and is appropriately costed for what it can do.

I don't see it staying like this long. They still have to put up all the old FAQs and Erratas back up on the site.

Lol And I HIGHLY disagree that it was "Broken"

Wanna know what's broken? Riptides.

T6 2+ MC that has unequaled shooting potential, but you never hear about that thing deserving nerfs. Always with the Heldrake hate because "Oooooh Ahhhhh it kills Troops" Muffinz.

 Homeskillet wrote:
No way it's garbage now, it's just no longer broken, and is appropriately costed for what it can do.

the baledrake is now appropriately costed. It is no longer a reason for every army in the game to take a lvl3 unmarked sorc, 10 cultists, and a baledrake in allies.

The autocannondrake is pure garbage now. It was just fine at 170 points and now it's worse than the DA flyers.



this all said, when CSM was already a pretty weak codex and you nerf it's best two units you end up with an even sadder codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:

Lol And I HIGHLY disagree that it was "Broken"

Wanna know what's broken? Riptides.

T6 2+ MC that has unequaled shooting potential, but you never hear about that thing deserving nerfs.

did you hear riptides can score now?

Riptides did get a nerf. No more buffmander or psyker buddies. Now theyre what they were intended - a durable platform with "decent" shooting. If you let my markerlights live longer than a turn, and i keep buffing his BS to 4-5 and add ignore cover, thats your fault.

A riptide on his own needs really good dice to do anything. Ive gone multiple games in a row where he didnt do gak because i kept either Gets Hot!'ing the damn pi plate, or scattered way off since my opponent wiped out most of my lights and the few i had missed. Also, my riptides cost more than your helldrakes ranging from 20-50pts more depending on the loadout...excluding the marker support i need for it.

EDIT: Helldrake can score too, hovermode enables scoring.

Why would they put up the old FAQ?

If they wana change it they can.

I entirely disagree with your disagreement.

ALL of my troops in any of my armies (i dont use terminator troops) cant stand up to hell drake spam period.

on the bight side Riptides got a no IC joining nerf so you can now deal with the markerlights that also add onto the cost.

Edit: Dammit 3 second ninja

It's not garbage.

It's not brokenly OP batgak insane for the price any more.

Well here's a question, when the FAQ refers to Pg. 52 of C:CSM;

Where does the Torrent Flamer (Bale Flamer) come into question for it's Errata? Not for anything but most people simply forget that the Drake comes STANDARD with the Hades Autocannon. Could the FAQ be simply talking about Hades Autocannon being hull mounted? I sure think so.

But flame all you want (wah-hah) until it's said otherwise and they determine that it IS intentionally nerfing BOTH weapon load out, along with Abaddons apparent susceptibility to being turned into a Spawn / Daemon Prince again, I will continue to play them as they were

It doesn't say "the Heldrake's ranged weapon" it says "a Heldrake's weapon", the "a" makes a world of difference, grammatically, because it therefore includes *ALL* ranged weapons on the unit.

So you can argue that maybe it's referring specifically to the autocannon, but then you'd be arguing against the English language.

GoliothOnline wrote:
I will continue to play them as they were

Your opponent says, "As per the BRB, you need to draw LoS down the barrel of the vehicle's gun. Since you can't see my infantry, you can't target my infantry."
What do you do?
Responding, "Uh-uh! I can do what I want!" is not valid.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It doesn't say "the Heldrake's ranged weapon" it says "a Heldrake's weapon", the "a" makes a world of difference, grammatically, because it therefore includes *ALL* ranged weapons on the unit.

So you can argue that maybe it's referring specifically to the autocannon, but then you'd be arguing against the English language.

But it DOES say "The Heldrakes weapon-" referring specifically to it's loadout on Pg. 52.

The FAQ specifically says:

"Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake's ranged weapon?
A: Treat the Heldrake's ranged weapon as a hull-mounted weapon, measuring all ranges and line of sight from the barrel of the gun."

So no, the question is regarding *all* the ranged weapons on the Heldrake, to which the answer is "treat it as a hull-mounted weapons".

When you look at the answer given, it specifically states "The" which in response to the question asked, about the Heldrake, which has its standard loadout on Page 52 as it's being referenced, referring to the Hades Autocannon.

It's in response to the question of "a". The wording of the question supersedes the wording of the answer. Do you English, bro?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The FAQ specifically says:

"Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake's ranged weapon?
A: Treat[b] the[/b] Heldrake's ranged weapon as a hull-mounted weapon, measuring all ranges and line of sight from the barrel of the gun."

So no, the question is regarding *all* the ranged weapons on the Heldrake, to which the answer is "treat it as a hull-mounted weapons".

Point of reference Page 52 C:CSM
Weapon being Referenced on Page 52 C:CSM Hades Autocannon.
Is the question referring to "ALL" weapons? Clearly not.

You have a point there.