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Do you think that Black Library could survive if the tabletop game was to die? I personally prefer the lore and universe (especially 40k) of Games Workshop franchises to the actual games by quite a considerable amount. Thoughts?

Black Library would continue; to most of it's readers (it's been in the NYT bestsellers list a lot) it's just a sci-fi setting and not a tie in to a tabletop game. So I imagine a lot of readers wouldn't even notice.

Its difficult to say, i would say a fair amount of the readership comes from actual gamers wanting to know more about the 40k universe or a particular army/race/fluff/historical event, plus the death of 40k would likely kill the company of which BL is part of, without GW it would be difficult to say if BL could survive without knowing the financial status of BL itself, Also without the overall umbrella of games workshop ltd some of the writers might get itchy feet and may not want to work for an independent BL.

Basically the answer is, nobody can know the answer, but personally i believe BL owes its success to the game of 40k(and to a lesser degree warhammer fantasy) so logically if 40k dies i see BL following in due course.

BL would shut down along with every aspect of GW should GW fall. The IP however would live on, and whomever ended up with the IP would either create or license new novels/books/etc., just not through the Black Library name.

I think BL would be viable on it's own. I think the only complication is that the IP is completely interwoven with GW, so if GW went under they'd need to maintain some agreement with whoever owned the IP whilst they tried to split away from it.

Herzlos wrote:
I think BL would be viable on it's own. I think the only complication is that the IP is completely interwoven with GW, so if GW went under they'd need to maintain some agreement with whoever owned the IP whilst they tried to split away from it.

BL ARE GW, There is no interweaving. Its like if GW went away FW would be in trouble too.

If BL were independent from GW and just had a licence to produce works of fiction they would still be in trouble if GW or the TT games went away.

BL still has a brand name outside of GW though, as a fantasy/sci-fi publisher, so there's no reason they couldn't diverge at some point into producing stuff that goes off-canon and start creating their own IP.

It's a separate business unit, so there's nothing to stop them splitting off should GW go under.

Forgeworld probably could too, but since it does high-end resin stuff for GW it might struggle to find a place in the market. Maybe high end generic scenery and minis, or trying to split off and do their own 30K game.

Herzlos wrote:
BL still has a brand name outside of GW though, as a fantasy/sci-fi publisher, so there's no reason they couldn't diverge at some point into producing stuff that goes off-canon and start creating their own IP.

It's a separate business unit, so there's nothing to stop them splitting off should GW go under.

Forgeworld probably could too, but since it does high-end resin stuff for GW it might struggle to find a place in the market. Maybe high end generic scenery and minis, or trying to split off and do their own 30K game.

Herzlos - I'm still not sure what you mean.

Black Library is a device and name owned by GW. The unit is a division of GW and derives its success entirely from publishing works based upon Warhammer and Warhammer 40k IP.

BL is not a separate unit. Its brand is intrinsically tied to the whims of GW plc Inc - A niche hobby company.

If GW went under The BL 'brand name' could be sold as an asset...like the rest of the IP. It would just be another publishing company in that case.

Black Library has fans and readers outside of GW - It's been in the NYT Best sellers list several times. So whilst it's a subsidiary of GW, a lot of it's readers aren't aware of GW or bothered about the games themselves and wouldn't notice if GW went under except that BL would either stop producing books or the setting would change. They have some brand recognition, so could continue to produce sci-fi books without using 40K IP. There's nothing (apart from GW) stopping them from inventing their own IP and running a series of books with it, or dropping the Warhammer or 40K IP entirely.

So essentially it has some value outside of GW and a lot of potential, so may be worth some publishing company taking over, as you say.

Herzlos wrote:
Black Library has fans and readers outside of GW - It's been in the NYT Best sellers list several times. So whilst it's a subsidiary of GW, a lot of it's readers aren't aware of GW or bothered about the games themselves and wouldn't notice if GW went under except that BL would either stop producing books or the setting would change. They have some brand recognition, so could continue to produce sci-fi books without using 40K IP. There's nothing (apart from GW) stopping them from inventing their own IP and running a series of books with it, or dropping the Warhammer or 40K IP entirely.

So essentially it has some value outside of GW and a lot of potential, so may be worth some publishing company taking over, as you say.

Ah.

I hear you.

Do you know how many copies sold it takes to get on the NYT bestseller list?

And with a dedicated following like GW, it's not surprising that, oh, say, 1% of its estimated customers picks up an anticipated novel in its first week on sale.

Not to mention the multitude of ways it can be gamed. There's even a marketing company specializing in gaming it to give clients increased exposure.

 Thud wrote:
Do you know how many copies sold it takes to get on the NYT bestseller list?

And with a dedicated following like GW, it's not surprising that, oh, say, 1% of its estimated customers picks up an anticipated novel in its first week on sale.

Not to mention the multitude of ways it can be gamed. There's even a marketing company specializing in gaming it to give clients increased exposure.

Quoted for the truth.

Black Library (more specifically - the fictional aspects of GW's 40K and Warhammer worlds) would shut down. They are not valuable enough within the niche literature market. The authors write pulp stories to sell products, products are not created based on the fiction. As a whole - the only things that I recall ever showing up have been the Horus Heresy books - only on the mass-market paperback list and never in the top 10. Anything below the top five are a dime a dozen and usually involve some sort of vampire or werewolf involved in a love triangle with a teenage runaway...or a divorcee trying to make it on her own against the man...

If you compare it to other comparables (say something like TSR's fiction arm) - titles like the Dragonlance series routinely make it into the top 5, have likely sold more copies than all of Black Library combined (the first trilogy having sold around 4 million copies at last count) and still get shelved.

No - Black Library would not live on. The different rules might, but I doubt a publisher would be fool hardy enough to try to continue publishing them. You might have a digital only version continue on in a sporadic nature...though it would likely be with lesser known authors writing even pulpier stuff which may or may not maintain the same level of connection to the existing works.
_________________

BTW - for those who were not aware, to make it onto the NYT best sellers list - it takes somewhere between 5,000 and 9,000 books sold in a given week. To take a top 5 slot you normally need around 10 times that. The number one slot is generally a book which is selling 100,000 copies per week. Below that top five though, the books are generally in the 5-15 thousand copies sold range with most of them being on the lower side of things (varies week by week, based on the time of year and what is falling off the top of the list).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Thud wrote:
Do you know how many copies sold it takes to get on the NYT bestseller list?

And with a dedicated following like GW, it's not surprising that, oh, say, 1% of its estimated customers picks up an anticipated novel in its first week on sale.

Not to mention the multitude of ways it can be gamed. There's even a marketing company specializing in gaming it to give clients increased exposure.

Quoted for the truth.

Black Library (more specifically - the fictional aspects of GW's 40K and Warhammer worlds) would shut down. They are not valuable enough within the niche literature market. The authors write pulp stories to sell products, products are not created based on the fiction. As a whole - the only things that I recall ever showing up have been the Horus Heresy books - only on the mass-market paperback list and never in the top 10. Anything below the top five are a dime a dozen and usually involve some sort of vampire or werewolf involved in a love triangle with a teenage runaway...or a divorcee trying to make it on her own against the man...

If you compare it to other comparables (say something like TSR's fiction arm) - titles like the Dragonlance series routinely make it into the top 5, have likely sold more copies than all of Black Library combined (the first trilogy having sold around 4 million copies at last count) and still get shelved.

No - Black Library would not live on. The different rules might, but I doubt a publisher would be fool hardy enough to try to continue publishing them. You might have a digital only version continue on in a sporadic nature...though it would likely be with lesser known authors writing even pulpier stuff which may or may not maintain the same level of connection to the existing works.
_________________

BTW - for those who were not aware, to make it onto the NYT best sellers list - it takes somewhere between 5,000 and 9,000 books sold in a given week. To take a top 5 slot you normally need around 10 times that. The number one slot is generally a book which is selling 100,000 copies per week. Below that top five though, the books are generally in the 5-15 thousand copies sold range with most of them being on the lower side of things (varies week by week, based on the time of year and what is falling off the top of the list).

I had to explain that to somebody, regarding R. A. Salvatore, once.

On the other hand - I sold my first printing copy of Soulless by Gail Carriger for $50 - still in print, but that first printing was small.... *EDIT* And I didn't go looking for a buyer....

So if BL goes under... you might be able to scalp those books at a significant profit....

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I rather like Soulless - and still have it on my e-reader....

How many Halo novels or Assassin novels would be sold if those games stopped being made?

Trying to add some context for the business side of things here.

If the tabletop division were to fail, which is a Large majority of the income GW has, a couple things would happen. most of which i can only speculate. But BL, FW and the other wholly owned subsidiary's would get packaged up and sold off or dissolved.

Kind of like what they are doing today with the bunkers, one man stores and Games Days.

This does bring up an interesting question: Would Kirby and the board dissolve their publishing arm in a bid to up their income by licensing the IP to another publisher? Cheaper possibly than doing it themselves with the overhead?

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

BTW - for those who were not aware, to make it onto the NYT best sellers list - it takes somewhere between 5,000 and 9,000 books sold in a given week. To take a top 5 slot you normally need around 10 times that. The number one slot is generally a book which is selling 100,000 copies per week. Below that top five though, the books are generally in the 5-15 thousand copies sold range with most of them being on the lower side of things (varies week by week, based on the time of year and what is falling off the top of the list).

And BL books are in a strange position for publishing of having a smallish readership, but one that want the books on day one. Most books do not have that kind of readership. All but the very best known and anticipated authors have very long tale sales, with most readers picking up the books when they see them, not when they come out.

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
But BL, FW and the other wholly owned subsidiary's would get packaged up and sold off or dissolved.

The thing is though, as people have pointed time and again, they are not "wholly owned subsidiary's". They are brand names that are part and parcel of GW. Now, this doesn't mean that they cannot be sold off, but makes it rather more difficult as they can't just sell the business, they would have to deal with redundancy/TUPE and other issues.

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:

This does bring up an interesting question: Would Kirby and the board dissolve their publishing arm in a bid to up their income by licensing the IP to another publisher? Cheaper possibly than doing it themselves with the overhead?

No. They still need to publish rule books, the BL authors are free lance and they would still need to employ the editorial staff for the rule books (Ye ye... I know what your going to say about "What editing..."). They already outsource the printing. I guess they could outsource some of the typesetting if they do not already, but it would not be cheaper for them unless they were going to get another company to write the rules, which apart from anything else would mean they would lose what limited secrecy they try to implement at the moment.