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am I reading this right? Since he didn't get errata'd, he provides a 2+ board wide DtW to EVERYTHING? In the BRB it says you can't modify the 6 needed to DtW on anything that doesn't directly target you; but guess what, the RAW entry in the CSM codex isn't a modifier...

LinkXx wrote:
am I reading this right? Since he didn't get errata'd, he provides a 2+ board wide DtW to EVERYTHING?

No. He provides a 2+ DtW against psychic powers that target him. There is nothing that suggests that this would apply to powers that target a different unit, or that don't target a unit.

... the RAW entry in the CSM codex isn't a modifier...

Based on what?

It is modifying the result needed to succeed.

Actually on page 8 of the BRB under modifiers it does say that a set value is a modifier and if you are trying to deny a power you are not a target of you do not get any modifiers so Kharn still deny's blessing and conjurations on 6's

Boy, what a guy, that Kharn!

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Actually on page 8 of the BRB under modifiers it does say that a set value is a modifier and if you are trying to deny a power you are not a target of you do not get any modifiers so Kharn still deny's blessing and conjurations on 6's

thank the lawd! My buddy has the BRB, so I was just going with what I remembered from the short time I had with the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

LinkXx wrote:
am I reading this right? Since he didn't get errata'd, he provides a 2+ board wide DtW to EVERYTHING?

No. He provides a 2+ DtW against psychic powers that target him. There is nothing that suggests that this would apply to powers that target a different unit, or that don't target a unit.

... the RAW entry in the CSM codex isn't a modifier...

Based on what?

It is modifying the result needed to succeed.

and if this hadn't been defined in the BRB already, I'd argue that it's not modifying, but rather replacing the number which is needed to succeed. Setting an entirely new value.

LinkXx wrote:
and if this hadn't been defined in the BRB already, I'd argue that it's not modifying, but rather replacing the number which is needed to succeed. Setting an entirely new value.

If the value is now different to what it was, it has been modified.

Set values are most definitley defined in the BRB as modifiers.

also there's a thread already on this subject:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596975.page

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Actually on page 8 of the BRB under modifiers it does say that a set value is a modifier and if you are trying to deny a power you are not a target of you do not get any modifiers so Kharn still deny's blessing and conjurations on 6's

That section of the BRB is discussing Characteristic values. DTW is not a characteristic so that section of the rules does not support that Kharns 2+ DTW is a modifier.

However the BRB does also state that if the power does not target a unit no bonuses or modifiers can be used. Kharns 2+ DTW is a bonus from a special rule so you still need 6's to deny. Just like some Grey Knight units get a bonus to re-roll failed DTW from the Aegis special rule which they can't use when attempting to deny enemy blessings etc.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Actually on page 8 of the BRB under modifiers it does say that a set value is a modifier and if you are trying to deny a power you are not a target of you do not get any modifiers so Kharn still deny's blessing and conjurations on 6's

That section of the BRB is discussing Characteristic values. DTW is not a characteristic so that section of the rules does not support that Kharns 2+ DTW is a modifier.

However the BRB does also state that if the power does not target a unit no bonuses or modifiers can be used. Kharns 2+ DTW is a bonus from a special rule so you still need 6's to deny. Just like some Grey Knight units get a bonus to re-roll failed DTW from the Aegis special rule which they can't use when attempting to deny enemy blessings etc.

Does the blessing paragraph say bonuses and modifiers, or just modifiers?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Actually on page 8 of the BRB under modifiers it does say that a set value is a modifier and if you are trying to deny a power you are not a target of you do not get any modifiers so Kharn still deny's blessing and conjurations on 6's

That section of the BRB is discussing Characteristic values. DTW is not a characteristic so that section of the rules does not support that Kharns 2+ DTW is a modifier.

However the BRB does also state that if the power does not target a unit no bonuses or modifiers can be used. Kharns 2+ DTW is a bonus from a special rule so you still need 6's to deny. Just like some Grey Knight units get a bonus to re-roll failed DTW from the Aegis special rule which they can't use when attempting to deny enemy blessings etc.

It does not say this. The BRB only states that modifiers can not be used.

Kharn's rule states that he and his unit pass Deny tests on a 2+. The only permission we have for a specific unit to attempt a Deny test is if that unit is being targeted.

Kharn's unit isn't being targeted by Blessings and Conjurations, so he can't be the one to roll a Deny test.

Zimko wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Actually on page 8 of the BRB under modifiers it does say that a set value is a modifier and if you are trying to deny a power you are not a target of you do not get any modifiers so Kharn still deny's blessing and conjurations on 6's

That section of the BRB is discussing Characteristic values. DTW is not a characteristic so that section of the rules does not support that Kharns 2+ DTW is a modifier.

However the BRB does also state that if the power does not target a unit no bonuses or modifiers can be used. Kharns 2+ DTW is a bonus from a special rule so you still need 6's to deny. Just like some Grey Knight units get a bonus to re-roll failed DTW from the Aegis special rule which they can't use when attempting to deny enemy blessings etc.

It does not say this. The BRB only states that modifiers can not be used.

The table entitled "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" clearly states bonuses can't be used under Step 4 - Deny the Witch. I'd argue that special rules such as Blessing of the Blood God or the Aegis are giving you a clear bonus to your DTW attempt.

So we have two conflicting rules then?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So we have two conflicting rules then?

No.

 insaniak wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So we have two conflicting rules then?

No.

I think we do.
Within the rulebook, two quotes, we have "...but will not be able to use any bonuses."
another says "...but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."

I'd describe the Aegis as a bonus, and Kharns rule as both a bonus and modifier.

 grendel083 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So we have two conflicting rules then?

No.

I think we do.
Within the rulebook, two quotes, we have "...but will not be able to use any bonuses."
another says "...but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."

I'd describe the Aegis as a bonus, and Kharns rule as both a bonus and modifier.

I still don't think it maters. Kharn only gets his rule if he (or his unit) is making the deny roll. That can only happen if he is first targeted, which a Blessing or Conjuration cannot do.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I still don't think it maters. Kharn only gets his rule if he (or his unit) is making the deny roll. That can only happen if he is first targeted, which a Blessing or Conjuration cannot do.

Oh don't get me wrong, I totally agree there!
It would just be nice to have some consistency, and if it said "no bonuses" in all places, then there would be far less confusion and threads like this popping up.

@grendel083: No, the confusion would go away if people would read the book. The psychic phase is one of the clearest bit of writing GW has done to date.

Regarding "bonuses" or "modifiers" GW plainly states in the beginning of the book that rules which set a value are "set modifiers". But, again, that doesn't even matter. Was Kharn targetted? No? Then he isn't the one denying the witch.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So we have two conflicting rules then?

No.

I think we do.
Within the rulebook, two quotes, we have "...but will not be able to use any bonuses."
another says "...but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."

I'd describe the Aegis as a bonus, and Kharns rule as both a bonus and modifier.

I still don't think it maters. Kharn only gets his rule if he (or his unit) is making the deny roll. That can only happen if he is first targeted, which a Blessing or Conjuration cannot do.

Kharn feels targeted and threaten by Conjurations and Blessings, they are bad bad stuff for Kharn, so Kharn denies them, and if you are not happy, Kharn denies your life with Gorechild, see?, works out perfectly well.

clively wrote:
@grendel083: No, the confusion would go away if people would read the book. The psychic phase is one of the clearest bit of writing GW has done to date.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Oh wait - were you serious?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So we have two conflicting rules then?

No.

I think we do.
Within the rulebook, two quotes, we have "...but will not be able to use any bonuses."
another says "...but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."

I'd describe the Aegis as a bonus, and Kharns rule as both a bonus and modifier.

I still don't think it maters. Kharn only gets his rule if he (or his unit) is making the deny roll. That can only happen if he is first targeted, which a Blessing or Conjuration cannot do.

Kharn feels targeted and threaten by Conjurations and Blessings, they are bad bad stuff for Kharn, so Kharn denies them, and if you are not happy, Kharn denies your life with Gorechild, see?, works out perfectly well.

This.