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CSM players have been unhappy since their codex came out. I've been playing CSM since 3rd edition and I'm not happy either. If you've played CSM over the years, you'll know that they've never been top competition, despite some gifted players doing pretty darn well with them on the tournament scene. The 3.5 dex was good, but there were better lists out there. For as long as I played 40k, nobody who wanted to beat all their friends at 40k and become king dweeb was picking CSM as their army of choice. Some players pick their armies based off of the models GW makes, and although Chaos gives the opportunity for come cool conversions, a lot of the CSM models have been behind the curve. Until recently, one of the kits for CSM dated back as far as 2nd edition and many sculpts go back to 3rd still. I'm sure some people picked Chaos for the models but it's not the main reason. I think the big draw for CSM has been the fluff. Archenemies of mankind, dark gods, ancient evil, demigods turned into daemons, the Horus Heresy... I got into the Death Guard because of Mortarion's story. The more time goes on, the CSM codexes have walked the army list further and further from the fluff that I, and I think most CSM players, chose the army for.

6th edition was a bit of a slap in the face. CSM was the first codex out. CSM was featured in the starter set. There were rumors that GW was shifting the fluff from an Imperium vs. Tyranids paradigm to an Imperium vs. Chaos one. When it became known that Phil Kelley was going to write the codex, a collective cheer rose up from CSM collectors. I personally was never more excited for a codex to drop. But then it did and GW punched CSM right in the gut. We wanted Traitor Legions but all we got was dinosaur robots. We wanted dirty tricks, but we got up the middle. We wanted powerful characters but we got weak characters with a rule that forces them to fight suicidal challenges. We wanted warbands, we got Space Marine Chapters with horns. Why the hell doesn't Tzeentch, the god who plots out the future, have access to Divination? Why can a Chapter Master beat the tar out of a 10,000 year old Chaos Lord with his powers augmented by the dark gods of the warp? To add insult to injury, the fluff sections of the codex were copy/pasted from the 5th edition CSM codex with the odd adjective swapped for a synonym like a 3rd grader cribbing the encyclopedia for a school report.

What made the whole thing worse was that the best stuff in the codex was the least fluffy. Obliterators are their own cult and don't worship the chaos gods, but now who doesn't take the Mark of Nurgle on them to keep them from getting insta-killed by Str 8 weaponry. What the heck is a Helldrake? A Hellblade that mutated into a dragon. So I can take the mutated flying techno dinosaur version but NOT a Hellblade? Thanks Phil, that's just what Chaos needed. So now when I say that I'm unhappy with the codex in general I get other players telling me to shut up and quit complaining because CSM can win if I take multiple Helldrakes. But if I take more than one Helldrake (or any Helldrakes) I'm a WAAC jerk. So I'm either a loser or a jerk.

Just when you think the hit on CSM couldn't be executed with any more perfection, they tease us. Every new supplement and data slate is an opportunity to fix the mistakes that were made but instead GW doubles down. And now 7th takes even the evil Helldrake away, teases us with Divination by a misprint on the psychic powers card and then dashes our hopes with the FAQ, nerfs our daemon princes and gives us the same exact ability to summon chaos daemons as the Ultramarines. Traitor Guard with CSM got shot down too because AM and CSM are Come the Apocalypse. Is it really surprising to people that CSM players feel crapped on this edition?

So, we have a noncompetitive codex that doesn't reflect the army's fluff, has no special tactics or strategies, is full of underpowered units and can't ally properly with anything.

GW, if you want to sell us CSM models and books, how exactly do you propose we use them if you phone in the fluff and make them barely usable in the game?

The good news is that nowadays, you can run a CSM army with a bunch of Riptides and Wraith Knights in it.

Convert them to Chaos. Forge the narrative.

You speak the truth brother.

While I agree for the most part I have to say...some perspective might make you feel a bit better. As a CSM and Tyranid player since third like yourself, I know all about bad codices. With that in mind...I still would rather have the current CSM codex than the current Tyranid codex.

There are still decent options in the CSM codex while the Tyranid codex has become an exercise in taking the least bad units. Remember all the warriors you saw in 5th? No? Me either, no one played them. How often do you see them now, in 6th/7th? Fairly often. Nothing changed with them, it is just a matter that everything else got so much worse that Warriors all of a sudden looked more appealing.

The Heldrake is still freaking amazing. Obliterators, Bikes, Spawn, Lords, Plague Marines, etc. are still viable options. There is still good list in there, just hard to see. With the advent of 7th vehicle rules I think that Mauler Fiends have become much more appealing and I hope to run a few with my CSM.

Utilize the powers of Chaos to their true potential by summoning daemons.

The Chaos Marine codex apparently represents loosely affiliated warbands and independent cults, and is not really representative of the Legions or Black Crusades. So you get renegades like Huron and Fabius, the Warpsmiths, Apostles, the dark mechanicus robot monsters, cultists, etc-etc. Why Abaddon is in there too, who knows. Maybe he moonlights as an independent Chaos Lord to raise money for his crusades.

I'd either hold out for a new codex that follows the recent Space Marine one with various different playstyles, or look at using the Forgeworld 30k Legion rules to represent your dudes. The latter in particular would probably suit you pretty well, is super fluffy, and you can take warlords that will put a chapter master to shame.

Actually (even though I don't play CSM), I kind of like the more dark machenicum units. I also find the models really good.
Yes, maybe CSM can't take Hellblades. Maybe speaking to your opponent about using a Hellblade in a casual setting might work?

I also agree with Arbiter_Shade. I'd rather have a somewhat functioning army rather than one that's prone to eat itself if you're not careful and has almost no good SCs. (Well... in my opinion at least.)

This is assuming you were looking for a way to improve your enjoyment of playing a chaos army, and weren't just letting off steam.

 Badablack wrote:
This is assuming you were looking for a way to improve your enjoyment of playing a chaos army, and weren't just letting off steam.

Actually, isn't there a CSM codex revamp project at proposed rules?

Go Unbound!

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
While I agree for the most part I have to say...some perspective might make you feel a bit better. As a CSM and Tyranid player since third like yourself, I know all about bad codices. With that in mind...I still would rather have the current CSM codex than the current Tyranid codex.

There are still decent options in the CSM codex while the Tyranid codex has become an exercise in taking the least bad units. Remember all the warriors you saw in 5th? No? Me either, no one played them. How often do you see them now, in 6th/7th? Fairly often. Nothing changed with them, it is just a matter that everything else got so much worse that Warriors all of a sudden looked more appealing.

The Heldrake is still freaking amazing. Obliterators, Bikes, Spawn, Lords, Plague Marines, etc. are still viable options. There is still good list in there, just hard to see. With the advent of 7th vehicle rules I think that Mauler Fiends have become much more appealing and I hope to run a few with my CSM.

I don't think anyone can say that Tyranids are a good army and I feel for any players that have fallen for them like I've fallen for CSM and had to suffer through the last two codecies. Tyranids, however, have been treated a bit better because they have recieved lots of new sculpts with new releases and you can still make a fluffy Tyranid swarm with your codex.

You're still thinking too much about the army's strength on the tabletop to really understand where CSM players are coming from. Pretend that the 6th ed Tyranid codex was just like it is now except; they bring back Zoats and make them super killy and obviously undercost them; your codex is really more of a splinter fleet codex than one for the hivefleets they write about in the fluff section of the book so your only troop options are Termagants and Rippers, everything else goes to Elites; your Carnifex sculpts are from 4th, your warrior sculpts are the bucky beavers from 2nd, you get new Termagant sculpts with the release and your only Genestealer model options are the Ymgarls with the tentacle faces. Losing Shadow in the Warp is a bigger hit to gameplay than CSM never getting Divination despite Tzeentch, but it's still just as derpy fluff wise.

As for our good units, there are problems with them as well. Lords are one of the weakest HQs in the game, and in a codex where they must challenge that is a very bad thing. Plague Marines aren't all they're cracked up to be. Loyalists get bikes cheaper with better rules. Obliterators are only good if they're sporting a Mark they would never take in fluff. I'm confused as to why you think Spawn are good for anything....

 Truth118 wrote:
Utilize the powers of Chaos to their true potential by summoning daemons.

CSM still perils on any double when using Daemonology AFAIK. They have the same capability of summoning daemons as the Ultramarines. Considering you need 3 successes and perils on any double, that's a pretty good way to get your sorceror or daemon prince killed for very little benefit.

Badablack wrote:The Chaos Marine codex apparently represents loosely affiliated warbands and independent cults, and is not really representative of the Legions or Black Crusades. So you get renegades like Huron and Fabius, the Warpsmiths, Apostles, the dark mechanicus robot monsters, cultists, etc-etc. Why Abaddon is in there too, who knows. Maybe he moonlights as an independent Chaos Lord to raise money for his crusades.

I'd either hold out for a new codex that follows the recent Space Marine one with various different playstyles, or look at using the Forgeworld 30k Legion rules to represent your dudes. The latter in particular would probably suit you pretty well, is super fluffy, and you can take warlords that will put a chapter master to shame.

CSM players have been waiting for a legions codex since the 4th edition codex came out. This is exactly what is needed. We got Black Legion, but you could already make a fluffy BL list with the current codex. If they made a supplement for a traitor legion OTHER than Black Legion it would sell like crazy.

I play Death Guard legion. I can't represent my legion with the FW 30K legion stuff yet because the DG haven't turned to Nurgle yet in their timeline. It will be years before they get far enough that they will have Plague Marines available. The same is true for my friends who play Thousand Sons and World Eaters.

Nightlord1987 wrote:Go Unbound!

I was SOOOOO excited for the Unbound rules until I found out that AM is 'Come the Apocalypse' with CSM. That really throws a huge spanner in the works for me.

fast moving ablative wounds/mass attack generator delivery system for a nurgle PF/LC bike lord or khorne juggy axelord? yeah, spawn are pretty decent.

Play 2nd Ed and all your problems will be solved

CSM codex is VERY competitive just very narrow and mostly Nurgle

Typhus
Zombie hordes
Helldrakes
Obliterators
Plague Marines

Spam and repeat and you will win , but don't try and steer away frm those units if cmpetiveness is what you want .

MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.

It's as if orkses or tyranids suddenly went all shooty instead of choppy GWAAHAHAHAAAHAHA WUT NONSENCE! oh wait...

 Badablack wrote:
The Chaos Marine codex apparently represents loosely affiliated warbands and independent cults, and is not really representative of the Legions or Black Crusades. So you get renegades like Huron and Fabius, the Warpsmiths, Apostles, the dark mechanicus robot monsters, cultists, etc-etc. Why Abaddon is in there too, who knows. Maybe he moonlights as an independent Chaos Lord to raise money for his crusades.

I'd either hold out for a new codex that follows the recent Space Marine one with various different playstyles, or look at using the Forgeworld 30k Legion rules to represent your dudes. The latter in particular would probably suit you pretty well, is super fluffy, and you can take warlords that will put a chapter master to shame.

The Black Legion supplement is a thing you know. (It also sucks).

I can answer half of your complaint with links;
Traitor Legions
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/Tyrants-Legion.pdf
Helblade, etc.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_APOCALYPSE.html

BTW forgeworld is releasing a book focused on chaos soon. The rumors sound promising.


I also do not agree with your assessment of the power level of the codex. I do agree that it was disappointing and compared to eldar, astra militarum, and space marines it is very one dimensional. However there are a number of units that are fantastic in that codex and your opinion of strong units sounds like you have not read the 7ed rules.

The CSM daemon prince with spell familiar is the best psyker in the game by far and away.

The CSM sorcerers are with spell familiars are top tier psykers and if you think divination is "good" in 7ed then you haven't seen telepathy which is just plain amazing.

Biker units are good on their own but given a nurgle lord on bike with PF/LC, IWND, and a 2+ they are fantastic.

Nurgle spawn are also great as a bike sorcerer, nurgle lord, or jugger AoBF lord escort.

Both of the above units become extremely difficult to kill with the addition of shrouded or invisibility from telepathy.

Oblits are of course good. They are better with mark of nurgle but mark of Tzeentch can be great when combo'd with cursed earth or a grimoire.

All of the daemon engines just became vastly tougher to kill as their IWND and 5+ invulnerable make HP stripping a chore and the new damage chart loves them.

Be'Lakor is a massive enabler who can shroud most your army or make a key unit invisible.

Objective secured plague marines are likely to cause a lot of people headaches.

Typhus with biomancy, abadon, and kharne were all close combat monsters (abadon is the best IC CC beastick in the game). Now that challenges cannot lock them up they got much better.

The baleflamer heldrake is now gone from way undercosted to just a really good value. The hades autocannon one is mediocre.

The black mace found a new home on a biomancy sorcerer on bike, IMO, as if your roll up the right powers he will tear through units with little effort.

Helbrutes actually got a lot better as the dataslates already made them usable, they became a bit more durable, and can now fight on par with most MC.

Problem I have with Chaos is you basically are screwed if you don't want a Nurgle force. Taking anything else puts you into the negatives before the game even begins, because the units aren't good. Which is fine if you play Death Guard or similar Nurgle warband, and gives you the finger if you play let's say Night Lords because Raptors aren't good, Warp Talons are garbage and standard CSM squads are pretty bad too, and a fluffy Night Lords army isn't going to have the typical Nurgle Lord on bike, Plague Marines in Rhinos, etc. and a true Night Lords player isn't going to come up with some excuse to use MoN "counts-as" either.

Familiars are obscenely good. Anything with that beats any psyker most other factions can provide. Psykers aren't just demo factory or bust.

Sacrificial Seargents don't stop your heavy hitters anymore.

Your vehicles are a lot more resiliant now.

A flying DP can't get into CC as quickly, but is much harder to kill now

Codex: Hellturkey is still broken, just not as broken as it used to be.

If it weren't for aesthetics, I'd love to play CSM. Instead of being 1-trick-ponies, they now have lots of potential tools, and look like they'll shine when they get used together.

EBay is always there, spend what money you get on a game that isn't about selling models first and having fun second.

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
CSM players have been unhappy

-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to

Can't csm players just use demons ?

Unfortunately, I agree completely with the OP. Even when I defended 40k, the chaos dex was my one big complaint. That it doesn't fit the fluff. Back in RT and 2nd I played a khorne army. Now if I did that, I'd be handicapping myself to the point of its not worth it to play. I'm not a tournament guy, but I at least want a good chance of winning.
I don't want dino-bots.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm players just use demons ?

But what if you don't want daemons? If I played Word Bearers then sure, daemons are great. But if I play Night Lords or Iron Warriors, they don't really use daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Unfortunately, I agree completely with the OP. Even when I defended 40k, the chaos dex was my one big complaint. That it doesn't fit the fluff. Back in RT and 2nd I played a khorne army. Now if I did that, I'd be handicapping myself to the point of its not worth it to play. I'm not a tournament guy, but I at least want a good chance of winning.
I don't want dino-bots.

Second this, although I like the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend

Eh, I think Kelly does like the CSM and wanted them to be alright, but was scared of making a fanboy super codex (looking at you, Ward). But the fact that chosen don't have models except for those bling-covered single pose atrocities in Dark Vengeance is a big old .

I also agree with MWHistorian and I also like the fiends. However I would gladly trade them for legion tactics.

I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.

Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.

Ally in Daemons! Forge that narrative through Daemon spawning!

I love that "Forge the Narrative" is showing up in response to my post. I realize it is being used sarcastically, and so it should. This underscores my point wonderfully.

I am a fluff player. I think most CSM players got into CSM for the awesome army fluff. The codex is so far off of the army fluff that we can't forge a narrative!

The CSM codex has some okay units. As a force on the tabletop, you can go nurgle heavy and get fair to middling performance. This isn't really the issue. There were very few complaints about the 3.5 dex. There was only one competative build in that codex, Iron Warriors with a Basilisks, but there werelots of CSM players who dididn't play IW who were fairly happy even though their chosen army had trouble on the board. The reason is their list matched their army fluff. Not perfectly, but enough that we could pretend.

I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.