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Hello
I am confused
Ally chart shows all armies as battle brothers with themselves.
but under the Allied detachment restrictions we read:
"RESTRICTIONS
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your
Primary Detachment (or no Faction)."

So can I take allied detachment from the same faction as my primary or not?

I don't have 7th edition yet, but I believe that Battle-forged allows you to take as many Force Organisation Charts as you want, which makes self-allying basically pointless.

You can't ally with yourself, but you can run multiple Combined Arms Detachments, or as we used to call it Force Organisation Charts

So if you wanted to do this you would need each detachment to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops

You just need a Primary Detacment (from where you choose your Warlord) of any other codex. Put mininum units there and use the others

example:
Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids
Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar
Allied Detach - Dark Eldar

 Vector Strike wrote:
You just need a Primary Detacment (from where you choose your Warlord) of any other codex. Put mininum units there and use the others

example:
Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids
Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar
Allied Detach - Dark Eldar

Will Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar and Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids suffer from Desperate allies penalties towards one another?

 Ratliker wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
You just need a Primary Detacment (from where you choose your Warlord) of any other codex. Put mininum units there and use the others

example:
Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids
Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar
Allied Detach - Dark Eldar

Will Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar and Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids suffer from Desperate allies penalties towards one another?

Yes. And from my reading, you would have to do
Primary Combined Arms Detachment - Tyranids
Allied Detach - DE
Allied Detach - DE (as many as you like)

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Ratliker wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
You just need a Primary Detacment (from where you choose your Warlord) of any other codex. Put mininum units there and use the others

example:
Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids
Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar
Allied Detach - Dark Eldar

Will Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar and Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids suffer from Desperate allies penalties towards one another?

Yes. And from my reading, you would have to do
Primary Combined Arms Detachment - Tyranids
Allied Detach - DE
Allied Detach - DE (as many as you like)

Why?

You can take as many detachments as you like.
Each separate detachment (whether an allied detachment or a combined arms detachment) can be from any codex you like.
The only restriction is that an allied detachment can't be from the same codex as the detachment containing your warlord. This only applies to allied detachments, so a combined arms detachment can be.

The alliance rules (desperate allies, battle brothers, etc) now only affect how your units interact when playing the game.
They have absolutely no effect on listbuilding.

 Ratliker wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
You just need a Primary Detacment (from where you choose your Warlord) of any other codex. Put mininum units there and use the others

example:
Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids
Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar
Allied Detach - Dark Eldar

Will Combined Arms Detach - Dark Eldar and Primary Combined Arms Detach - Tyranids suffer from Desperate allies penalties towards one another?

Yes, they are desperate allies. However, this system DOES create the possibility of using far more elites/HQs than you could previously. With only 1 primary combined arms detachment required, you could then do something like this:

Primary Combined Arms Detachment: Eldar (1 Autarch w/ Jetbike & power weapon, 2x 3-man jetbike squad) (202 pts)
Allied Detachment: Dark Eldar (1 Haemonculous, 1 unit of 5 Wracks w/liquifiers in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons, 4 Kabalite Trueborn w/Blasters in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons) - 348
Allied Detachment: Dark Eldar (1 Haemonculous, 1 unit of 5 Wracks w/liquifiers in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons, 4 Kabalite Trueborn w/Blasters in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons) - 348
Allied Detachment: Dark Eldar (1 Haemonculous, 1 unit of 5 Wracks w/liquifiers in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons, 4 Kabalite Trueborn w/Blasters in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons) - 348
Allied Detachment: Dark Eldar (1 Haemonculous, 1 unit of 3 wracks, 4 Kabalite Trueborn w/Blasters in a Venom w/dual splinter cannons) - 253
TOTAL: 1499/1500


Previously, there wasn't really a way to play with your numbers to get a higher percentage of your army as blasterborn(elites). You were pretty much stuck with getting only 3, but with the detachment system, you can mess with things to give yourself a tiny bit more flexibility in creating an army. As you can see above, this army would have 4 units of blasterborn in venoms, each being led by a Haemonculous so that the trueborn have FNP from the start. You end up with a list that looks like this:

HQs:
1 Autarch w/ power weapon & Jetbike (Warlord)
4 Haemonculi

Troops:
3x 5 Wracks w/liquifiers
1x 3 Wracks
2x 3 Eldar Jetbikes

Elites:
4x 4 Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters (16 Darklight(lance) Shots)

Transports:
7 Venoms w/ Dual Splinter Cannons (70 poison shots)

If you were concerned about not having enough anti-tank, you could swap out the 5 man wrack squads w/ liquifiers for 5 man wyches w/ haywire grenades at equivalent point costing. But either way, this is an example of a battle-brothers army using the battle forged rules. All units in the army are scoring with the "Objective Secured" rule, and can interact with one another as if they were from the same codex(ie, independant characters joining each other's units, etc).

Correction: SM armies can ally with themselves Via FAQ update.

Everyone else pays HQ 2 troops tax as usual for second detachment garbage.

*grumble fething loyalists*

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Correction: SM armies can ally with themselves Via FAQ update.

Everyone else pays HQ 2 troops tax as usual for second detachment garbage.

*grumble fething loyalists*

Can still do some pretty wacky stuff with unlimited detachments. For instance, again with Dark Eldar(That's what I play):

Primary Combined Arms Detachment: 1 Haemonculus w/ venom blade, 2 units of 3-man wracks in venoms, 3 voidraven bombers w/flickerfields
Secondary Combined Arms Detachment: 1 Haemonculus, 2 units of 3-man wracks(1 in venom), 3 voidraven bombers w/nightshields.
Tertiary Combined Arms Detachment: 1 Haemonculus, 2 units of 3-man wracks, 3 ravagers w/flickerfields(2 w/ dissies)

Creates the following list:

HQ:
1 Haemonculus w/venom blade
2 Haemonculus

Troops:
6x 3-man wrack squads

Heavy Support:
6x Voidraven bombers w/flickerfields
2x Ravagers w/flickerfields & dissies
1x Ravager w/flickerfield

Transports:
4x Venoms

TOTAL: 1850

Thats NINE heavy support choices in one reasonably priced army. 21 guys and 13 vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Correction: SM armies can ally with themselves Via FAQ update.

Everyone else pays HQ 2 troops tax as usual for second detachment garbage.

*grumble fething loyalists*

I was thinking about this later, and there is a fairly inexpensive way around this, if you don't care about fluff at all. For 25 points you can purchase an inquisitor HQ as your primary detachment. The inquisitor codex specifically says to use their FOC chart for the detachment, and NOT the one in the core rulebook. They have not FAQed the Inquisition codex at all. Since their FOC chart lists all slots other than the HQ slot as optional even for your primary detachment, you could then proceed to purchase as many "allied" detachments of the army you actually want to play as you can afford, all while still getting the "Objective Secured" special rule on all of your troops. It'd be weird to see a single, lone inquisitor leading an army of allied xenos, but you could do it with minimal effect on the game.

Here's an peripheral question: is there a distinction between a primary detachment and a combined arms detachment?

Ignore, tired and misread question

 thunderingjove wrote:
Here's an peripheral question: is there a distinction between a primary detachment and a combined arms detachment?

You only have 1 primary detachment, but you can have as many CA Detachments as you like.

your primary Detachment must include your Warlord.

In most battle-forged armies your Primary detachment is a Combined arms detachment, though it doesn't always have to be (see Imperial Knights and Inquisition who don't have the proper choices to run a CAD, but are allowed to be primary)

I think this will open up my green tide army to have more than 2 HQ's. Essentially, for every 2 troop choices, I can take 2 HQ's!

Another peripheral question: Is "allying with yourself" just short-hand for having a second combined arms detachment originating from the same faction?

 thunderingjove wrote:
Another peripheral question: Is "allying with yourself" just short-hand for having a second combined arms detachment originating from the same faction?

I think so. They probably put it there to avoid questions like "If my 2 Combined Arms Detachments are from the same Faction, what is the relation betweeen them?"

 Vector Strike wrote:

 thunderingjove wrote:
Another peripheral question: Is "allying with yourself" just short-hand for having a second combined arms detachment originating from the same faction?

I think so. They probably put it there to avoid questions like "If my 2 Combined Arms Detachments are from the same Faction, what is the relation betweeen them?"

Who's the "they" there? GW or us?

 thunderingjove wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 thunderingjove wrote:
Another peripheral question: Is "allying with yourself" just short-hand for having a second combined arms detachment originating from the same faction?

I think so. They probably put it there to avoid questions like "If my 2 Combined Arms Detachments are from the same Faction, what is the relation betweeen them?"

Who's the "they" there? GW or us?

GW. We don't edit the book

Ha!

By the way, what is the answer to that question, "If my 2 combined arms detachments are from the same faction, what is the relation between them?"

 thunderingjove wrote:
Ha!

By the way, what is the answer to that question, "If my 2 combined arms detachments are from the same faction, what is the relation between them?"

battle-brothers, as the new ally matrix table shows

 Vector Strike wrote:

 thunderingjove wrote:
Ha!

By the way, what is the answer to that question, "If my 2 combined arms detachments are from the same faction, what is the relation between them?"

battle-brothers, as the new ally matrix table shows

However, this doesn't seem to be an allied detachment as you make take a second HQ in the additional detachments.

The ally matrix and the allied detachment do not refer to only eachother. The ally matrix shows you how two factions react to each other when in the same army. The allied detachment is a type of detachment that you can select that allows lower troop tax so long as it's faction is different from your primary detachment's faction. Also, to clarify some confusion earlier, a primary detachment isn't a specific type of detachment, it is just the detachment you chose to have your warlord in (be it a single inquisitor using his fancy detachment, or a normal combined arms detachment, or whatever).

 thunderingjove wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 thunderingjove wrote:
Ha!

By the way, what is the answer to that question, "If my 2 combined arms detachments are from the same faction, what is the relation between them?"

battle-brothers, as the new ally matrix table shows

However, this doesn't seem to be an allied detachment as you make take a second HQ in the additional detachments.

You have 2 basic types of detachment, CAD and Allied. CAD is the "normal" FOC we all know, so you onlyu have to take 1 HQ and 2 troops. Allied is the same as 7th, so 1HQ 1 Troop minimum.

However for ALL of these you refer to the Allies matrix to determine how they behave towads eacheother; 2 CAD from Space Marines means they are BB, but between Chaos and AM you have CtA.

Jimsolo - only units WITHIN the CAD have to be from the same faction; you can have 2 CAD one of Eldar one of Nids if you wish

Someone pointed something out to me re CAD. The restriction isn't that all units must come from the same codex, it is from the same faction, right? And supplements count as the same faction as the one they are a supplement to, right? So, this is a legit CAD?

Lord from CSM
a unit of Chosen troops from the Black Legion supplement
Possessed troops from the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

All from the same faction.

How do combined arms detachments work with supplements? Someone keeps telling me me I can't take a primary detachment from Farsight Enclaves and a combined detachment from Tau Empire. They're the same faction, so can't they not be taken as an allied detachment?

 Tarnag wrote:
How do combined arms detachments work with supplements? Someone keeps telling me me I can't take a primary detachment from Farsight Enclaves and a combined detachment from Tau Empire. They're the same faction, so can't they not be taken as an allied detachment?

Sure, that's OK. They are correct that you cannot take an "Allied" detachment from the same faction. But you're not. You're taking a second Combined Arms detachment, which is fine.

 Tarnag wrote:
How do combined arms detachments work with supplements? Someone keeps telling me me I can't take a primary detachment from Farsight Enclaves and a combined detachment from Tau Empire. They're the same faction, so can't they not be taken as an allied detachment?

Totally legal to take 2 CADs from different supplements/codex even if same faction. You cannot take Farsight CAD and Tau Allie or vis-versa. Space Marines get a pass on this thanks to a FAQ.

 don_mondo wrote:


Sure, that's OK. They are correct that you cannot take an "Allied" detachment from the same faction. But you're not. You're taking a second Combined Arms detachment, which is fine.

This is a distinction that we as a community are gonna have to keep pounding. Let's not use that term anymore, "Allying with yourself," because it is confusing and false.

 don_mondo wrote:
Someone pointed something out to me re CAD. The restriction isn't that all units must come from the same codex, it is from the same faction, right? And supplements count as the same faction as the one they are a supplement to, right? So, this is a legit CAD?

Lord from CSM
a unit of Chosen troops from the Black Legion supplement
Possessed troops from the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

All from the same faction.

Sorry for thread necro, but I would like clarification on this specific issue. It is interesting.