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My play group tends to avoid tank traps and such in favor of a more urban/city type of battlefield which leaves dozer blade out as an option, or at least a lesser one.

I tend to like HKM and am wondering what others feel about them.

If you have points to burn then why not?

To be fair, I only really see them as useful on units such as Ironclad Dreds that are drop-podding (It allows them to shoot something for a turn before they charge in flailing their powerfists/seismic hammers)

I don't play with vehicles enough to have much of an opinion, but I personally don't want to spend 10 pts on a single shot weapon that could end up not doing anything, either through missing (just my luck), being shot off, or failing to damage their regular target. Come to think of it, I haven't used one since 6th. Hull Points makes them not very worthwhile, imo

I want something to deal with my friends walkers who spam ML at me all day long lol as all I have access to atm are Rhinos, Razorbacks and plasma cannons

5 Sternguard in a pod with meltas/combi meltas will deal with his walkers.

10 Sternguard who combat-squad immediately on landing can pop two walkers if they're close enough

HKs are must haves, especially on Space Marine tanks with their BS4 and especially on tanks that target armor (so theyre not very useful on Dakkapreds and Whirlwinds).

Infinite range can make them one shot wonders, and those 10 points can often come in handy when you want to strip that last remaining hullpoint off an enemy tank without leaving it like that till your next turn and having it fire everything at you during the opponent's upcoming turn.

10 points to save 40+ points of casualties? Yes please.

I think you should take it. It has a chance to make your opponent's plan fall apart. I take hkm's on almost all of my tanks. When I was playing against my brother, he had a tank that was a key part of his plan and it made it explode. I think it is a good way to spend your points if you're lucky enough.

 Wulfmar wrote:
5 Sternguard in a pod with meltas/combi meltas will deal with his walkers.

10 Sternguard who combat-squad immediately on landing can pop two walkers if they're close enough

Trying to go pure DA until I lock down a list or two, then I'll start with allies

I used to always get them. As soon as you can, fire them all. With unlimited range you just do a huge turn 1 barrage and knock out some transports etc. In big games where I used to have around 20 vehicles id just pick a vehicle fire HKs at it until it died and moved on to the next one. Sometimes they did nothing, other times they devastated some units.

They're pretty bad. By the time you've brought enough of them to have a reasonable chance of killing anything you've probably spent enough points to buy better upgrades, or even an entire additional unit. I wouldn't take them unless I had a few points left over and nothing better to do with them. A single krak missile shot is better than playing a 1500 point game with 1490 points, but that's about it.

The 2 problems with HKM is they are almost as expensive as a legit Missle Launcher but only get one shot and you are restricted to it being a Krak missle. Secondly they are an upgrade that is best taken in bulk. 1 HKM might glance their APC, 6 or 7 though could reliably destroy a couple of transports. But that's a lot of points to try and destroy low AV vehicles with no guarantee of success with that one shot.

Imho I think its a trap upgrade that adds up fast in the points and doesn't earn its points. that being said if they were reduced (Lets say half the cost of the upgrade as it stands in Codex: Space Marines) I would certainly consider them a worthy upgrade.

Mostly I want them as something to throw on a Rhino

I absolutely would not put them on Rhinos. For one thing, it increases the cost of the vehicle by more than 25%. Does it really provide that much improvement proportionally?

Second, it conflicts with the Rhino's mission. The purpose of the Rhino is to get a full-size squad across the table at top speed. The dozer blade is not a bad upgrade for the Rhino because it enhances this mission, but moving at combat speed so you can get a full-BS shot off is not an optimal turn for a Rhino. Sure, it can start firing after it's delivered its contents, but you shouldn't be spending extra points on a secondary mission that it may not live long enough to fulfill. If you want a transport that gives fire support, you should find another ten points and upgrade it to a Razorback. Sure it only holds a demi-squad, but you can just deploy the other half on an objective or in a good vantage point with a ML or lascannon.

Third, is there really nowhere else you could spend those points? If any of your squads are using a non-Veteran Sergeant, upgrading him is a better investment of 10 points. Or you could add another trinket to your HQ, or if you run a lot of Rhinos you could add a Techmarine or Land Speeder to the army.

The only positive use I've ever gotten out of HK missiles was on Scout Sentinels, because it added to their alpha strike capability when Outflanking (since Walkers can fire multiple weapons without penalty). Even then I don't think it was a terribly smart use of the points.

If you want something simply to 'throw on a Rhino' may I recommend the additional storm bolter? Half the cost of the missile and no matter how you use your rhino (Be it a delivery system for your troops and then just drive to around or keep a combat squad in to do drive-bys) the Rhino has just effectively doubled its offensive power for a fraction of its cost.

I played a game where a hkm on my rhino took the last wound off a bloodthirster, it was hilarious. If youve got spare points, there are worse things to have than a few hkms.

If only they could be fired in skyfire...

 Verstaka wrote:
that being said if they were reduced (Lets say half the cost of the upgrade as it stands in Codex: Space Marines) I would certainly consider them a worthy upgrade.

Actually they used to be 15 points a pop in older codexes and IG also pay the same price as SM now, so SM really have the best deal.

 Bludbaff wrote:
I absolutely would not put them on Rhinos. For one thing, it increases the cost of the vehicle by more than 25%. Does it really provide that much improvement proportionally?

Second, it conflicts with the Rhino's mission. The purpose of the Rhino is to get a full-size squad across the table at top speed. The dozer blade is not a bad upgrade for the Rhino because it enhances this mission, but moving at combat speed so you can get a full-BS shot off is not an optimal turn for a Rhino. Sure, it can start firing after it's delivered its contents, but you shouldn't be spending extra points on a secondary mission that it may not live long enough to fulfill. If you want a transport that gives fire support, you should find another ten points and upgrade it to a Razorback. Sure it only holds a demi-squad, but you can just deploy the other half on an objective or in a good vantage point with a ML or lascannon.

Third, is there really nowhere else you could spend those points? If any of your squads are using a non-Veteran Sergeant, upgrading him is a better investment of 10 points. Or you could add another trinket to your HQ, or if you run a lot of Rhinos you could add a Techmarine or Land Speeder to the army.

The only positive use I've ever gotten out of HK missiles was on Scout Sentinels, because it added to their alpha strike capability when Outflanking (since Walkers can fire multiple weapons without penalty). Even then I don't think it was a terribly smart use of the points.

Everything else in my army is fully maxed out with what I can put on them. I have 60 points free but I lack the models I can afford to fulfill this, I would ideally like scouts but can't find the ones with Sniper Rifles.

Well, it's better to spend the points than let them go to waste. I'm guessing that your Rhinos aren't assembled such that you can upgrade them to Razorbacks? As I mentioned above, a Techmarine or a single Land Speeder would be a decent way to spend the points (and not terribly expensive IRL), and sniper Scouts are also a good choice (probably more useful in a vacuum than either of my suggestions, really).

Couple more suggestions: the dozer blades can still be useful for urban terrain. If you're playing with a lot of ruins, the walls of such do not block vehicle movement through them, so a Rhino could drive through a wall (assuming there's room to place it on the other side) rather than going around. Pairing the dozer blade with the storm bolter mentioned above gives you both increased mobility and increased firepower for the same price as a HKM. Also, you could maybe take a Chapter Relic on your HQ?

Ultimately though, if the HKMs work for you, just roll with it.

 Bludbaff wrote:
Well, it's better to spend the points than let them go to waste. I'm guessing that your Rhinos aren't assembled such that you can upgrade them to Razorbacks? As I mentioned above, a Techmarine or a single Land Speeder would be a decent way to spend the points (and not terribly expensive IRL), and sniper Scouts are also a good choice (probably more useful in a vacuum than either of my suggestions, really).

Couple more suggestions: the dozer blades can still be useful for urban terrain. If you're playing with a lot of ruins, the walls of such do not block vehicle movement through them, so a Rhino could drive through a wall (assuming there's room to place it on the other side) rather than going around. Pairing the dozer blade with the storm bolter mentioned above gives you both increased mobility and increased firepower for the same price as a HKM. Also, you could maybe take a Chapter Relic on your HQ?

Ultimately though, if the HKMs work for you, just roll with it.

I could make them into Razorbacks but I lack excess pieces for the weapons

I can take both a bolter and dozer?

Yeah, the armory wording is that you can "take up to one of each of the following." So you could theoretically take a storm bolter, dozer blade, HKM and extra armor on a vehicle.

N o way would I use them now. Missiles don't do nearly enough damage on the damage chart to warrant the cost.

I know from a IG point of view HK's are a big no no. For the same price you can stick a las cannon or buy a meta gun for a troop.

If it cost 15 pts to add a legit missile launcher to a vehicle, I might be more inclined to take it. That, or have it cost less as it stands now. The current bill for the HKM is not worth it, imo, and I'm a fluff player.

Those 10 points are better spent somewhere else.

The only place I use HKs is on Ironclads. They can take two, and fire both at some poor tank's side/rear armor on the turn they come down.

Zengu wrote:
I know from a IG point of view HK's are a big no no. For the same price you can stick a las cannon or buy a meta gun for a troop.

Actually HKs on a Pask Russ is probably the best place to put them because he gives them BS4, re-rolls 1s, re-rolls pens and his tank can move 6" and still shoot it along with everything else.

I take four on my vulture with twin linked lascannon....havent tried it in 7th but imagining the side armour carnage...hopefully!

You take hunter killers on a vulture?

Punisher cannons, Hyglar. For ten points more than four hunter killers, you could have punisher cannons.

Nitpick: it's actually six HKs, not four.

And now that the Vendetta has been nerfed and no longer does everything a non-punisher Vulture does for fewer points it's not a terrible option. The punisher cannons are great, but they're useless against AV 12+. The HK/LC Vulture gives you three krak missiles (remember, the two missile per turn limit is gone) and a TL lascannon shot, usually at BS 4. And if you're willing to drop into hover mode and only move 6" you can fire all six of the missiles at once.

So true. I'm a fool who is too lazy to magnetise...it's why I have three (two punisher, one anti-tank) and why I haven't tried my las+hunterkillers!

I do like to have friends I can play against! (I actually threaded this a while back)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I knew it was 6 hk's! Sorry about my forgetfulness...the image of a vector dancing Vulture getting behind a IG armour column and unleashing a salvo of rockets is....sensual. So back to main thread I am going to take HK's but only on my fast flier for a rear armour BS4 salvo+lascannon. It could be cool.
And your right about the punisher.. I initially made two punisher for a apoc game against a transcendent C'tan. I lack the will to do math hammer but I was hoping the shear amount of die would floor it. But that's another conversation thread.