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My brother and I played my 2 games of Fantasy last summer with the intent to learn the game before he lost interest, but I was able to get a game in last night with a much more experienced opponent. As knowledgeable as he is, he was rather unfamiliar with my Orcs and Goblins, and this query came up.

The scenario is that I had a unit with a 5 model front including a Musician, Standard Bearer, Shaman, and 2 R&F Goblins. Hidden in the unit was 3 Nasty Skulkers with Conceal. The Conceal Rule says, 'Skulkers must be revealed at the start of the unit's first round of Close Combat [ ]. Place Skulkers following the rules for Characters joining a unit'. My plan was for my Skulkers to replace two R&F Goblins and my Shaman on the front row to protect my Shaman for at least the first turn of Combat. However, he charged my right flank. When I joined the Skulkers to the unit, I tried to place the displaced Shaman in the middle of the second row. My opponent said he was not sure if I could do that, but he didn't know.

The question is: if I do displace a Character to the second row, do I decide where they are placed on the second row, to protect them from Flank attacks, or what?

The only situation I know this comes up in, is for the gutstar, and I believe you get to choose.

Indeed, you can place your character anywhere in the second rank if he doesn't fit in the first rank

I don't think a skulker can displace a character with Make Way. A skulker is unit type Infantry (Character), and characters can only make way through rank and file, not other characters. You could conceivably reform once the combat was done to have a front rank full of skulkers and command, thus pushing the shaman to the back, but that hinges on all those squishy goblins living through a combat...

I'll see if I can't get some references for you.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
I don't think a skulker can displace a character with Make Way.

The Conceal Rule says that they are placed using the rules for Characters joining a unit, not the Make Way! rule.

Hm. I guess that's an interesting alternative. I assumed they'd have to go where rank and file were already positioned, then make way into combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just remembered why I thought that. The FAQ (always a good place to look) says:

Q: When Nasty Skulkers are revealed in a unit of Goblins, can they
displace anything other than rank and file models to make space for
them? (p44)
A: No, though they will then be able to Make Way if they are
not in base contact with the enemy.

If it weren't for the search function in PDFs, I'd probably never find half these answers.

Time to re-read the FAQ. Thanks!

The only situation I know this comes up in, is for the gutstar, and I believe you get to choose.

This comes up in a lot of other situations, not just gutstar. I push my chaos sorcerer lord back often when I play a BUS of chaos knights and put a nurgle bsb on daemonic mount in the unit. The BSB is 2 unit base and 3 command models therefor I can push the sorcerer lord back for protection and buff/debuff goodness.

Only problem I can see is that it happens once you are in base contact, and AFAIK you cannot, even with make way, force a character OUT of base contact if he is already in it...

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
Time to re-read the FAQ. Thanks!

What FAQ? they havnt been updated in 15months and there has been a handful of new army books. GW doesnt care

Well... that might be true, but the existing FAQs are still valid, no?

It would appear RAW that you cannot move charecters out of combat so some skulkers would replace the RNF and the other one would sit in the second rank til there was a space

It would appear RAW that you cannot move charecters out of combat so some skulkers would replace the RNF and the other one would sit in the second rank til there was a space

The only problem with this is the Skulkers rule reads to be placed as characters joining a unit (again not make way) and there are no RNF in that front row. This is again one of those back and forth where in that FAQ they went against how all their other rules work because it also plainly states that Army book and specific rules take precedence over BRB rules when in conflict. If at our local games I would be 100% ok with placing skulkers in front rank as that is their purpose. There is no RnF to displace so they should be in front row imo. There is precedence for moving characters to second row (gutstar) so this is not a crazy idea or strategy.

I would deal with this with local rules as RAW it is in my opinion a roll off for how this works because the FAQ still says replace RnF which counter acts the RAW itself. since this is the you make da call, I would favor skulkers to the front to do their job and it is a cunning and sneaky ploy well played. go go goblin creepers!

Well, is there really a conflict of rules, here?

Skulkers are placed like characters who join units. So they replace rank and file.

Characters can get shunted to the second rank.

Characters in base-to-base contact with enemy models cannot be removed from contact.

Granted, I think the spirit of Skulkers is pretty clear, and it's not like they'd be super-ultra-OMG-broken, if they could displace characters. I'd be fine with it.

Granted, I think the spirit of Skulkers is pretty clear, and it's not like they'd be super-ultra-OMG-broken, if they could displace characters. I'd be fine with it.

in addition to replacing RnF when characters must be placed in front rank. There are no RnF in front rank so this is how gutstar gets second rank characters. The question is can a character get displaced while in combat. You will be displacing the command if not which makes more sense to me in this instance to be able to displace the caster just as much as the command of the unit.

Sure, sure. But the rules say that, once a character is in combat, he can't be removed from it.

So...if added characters must be placed in the front rank...and characters in B2B can't be displaced...and command can't be displaced...I suppose that, technically, that would mean that you can't place the Skulker.
Except the Army Book says you have to. Hm...so then it's a matter of which of the above rules do you break?
If this is all the RAW info to be had on this topic, I'd say it's just a straight-up contradiction, and needs a roll-off.

So...if added characters must be placed in the front rank...and characters in B2B can't be displaced...and command can't be displaced...I suppose that, technically, that would mean that you can't place the Skulker.
Except the Army Book says you have to. Hm...so then it's a matter of which of the above rules do you break?
If this is all the RAW info to be had on this topic, I'd say it's just a straight-up contradiction, and needs a roll-off.

That is why I would argue they do displace. All of the other rules are from BRB, the placing the skulkers are in the army book. The RAW says any rule that contradicts follow the rule from the army book.

You can Make Way to remove command fromt he front rank, and skulkers have a specific rule requiring them to be in the front rank when revealed, so use that rule

If you ONLY had char in the front rank, then the skulkers could replace a char. As you dont, then you have to remove RNF as the char have a stronger rule to not being removed than the RNF do...

Why would the Skulkers ever be allowed to displace characters?
Army Book > Main Book is fine and all, but this army book just says "unit A follows rules B, see main rulebook". Surely a rule in the main rulebook doesn't gain priority just because it was mentioned in an army book?

I don't have a book on me, so I can't confirm the rules on command models being in the front and all that. How is it worded?

So instead of forcing a character to the second row would't your front just expand? Like a unit of 5wide 4deep turn to 6wide 3deep? Thenlike the rules written they all stay front. The rules don't say it cant' expand front as they jossel for postion like skirmishers.
Sorry on tablet and it keeps auto coreccting

Nothing gives you permission to preform a reform which is what you are trying to do by changing from 5 wide to 6 wide.

Aka that would be illegal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can Make Way to remove command fromt he front rank, and skulkers have a specific rule requiring them to be in the front rank when revealed, so use that rule

If you ONLY had char in the front rank, then the skulkers could replace a char. As you dont, then you have to remove RNF as the char have a stronger rule to not being removed than the RNF do...

You can't displace command when deploying a skulker.
Once you place the skulker, you can make way to displace the command.
Skulker deployment falls under the rules for joining units.
Displacing command units falls under the rules for Make Way.
What's more, since they both happen at the start of combat, the players who's turn it is can determine the sequence.

-Matt