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Anyone who's read Betrayer knows what I'm talking about.
Angron has this weird relationship with this female captain who commands his flagship.
He protects her, and admonishes and even assaults astartes of his own legion who attempt to harm her, despite the gak she pulls.
What the hell?

He respects her.

He hates her considerably less than he hates most of the people around him.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a big fan of the 'pack mentality' storylines, where people have a weird loyalty to their own personal circle of associates. Angron has taken the captain into his own bizarre little circle, and that connection is all he needs. It says a lot about his character that most of his own legion don't fall within it.

This theme comes up a couple more times in his writing. In The First Heretic, Argel Tal's real fall to Chaos comes when he has to destroy someone he considers to be part of his little circle, in retribution for their unspeakable betrayal (to his sensibilities) by destroying another member of his circle.

The Night Lords trilogy and The Emperor's Gift explore this in much greater detail. (I highly recommend the former. Also the latter, but only after reading the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies.)

Because he respects her, and that she is a more than capabel captain that has proved her worth. The audio drama butchers nails touches upon this on several occasions,

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Anyone who's read Betrayer knows what I'm talking about.
Angron has this weird relationship with this female captain who commands his flagship.
He protects her, and admonishes and even assaults astartes of his own legion who attempt to harm her, despite the gak she pulls.
What the hell?

Would you find it wierd if she was male? Just asking - or is it the human over Astartes that concerns you as he has a twisted relationship with his Legionaries and hates them perhaps the most.

She is everything he wants the captain of his flagship to be and he respect and values that - most of the Legion are far more replacable than she is.

What "gak she pulls" do you refer to?

One of the biggest problem people have with w40k books is that they look rather silly, child-like, dumb. Something made for 12 year old little boys, who like to imagine themselves as mega-super-warriors with lots of violence and explosions, but no women or children involved, because having brutal violence, girls and babies in the same place is totally not cool and perhaps even a little scary. It makes you think about war and carnage being not that awesome.

The lack of female characters is tipically pointed out as a rather obvious 'proof' of this. It doesn´t matter what the setting is about: if there are men, there should be women, or at least a really good explanation should be provided for not having lots and lots of women around. Because there are lots of women everywhere.

Aaron Dembsky-Bowden knows that, and regularly tries to avoid it by introducing female characters in his books, and empowering them one way or another. Octavia in the Night Lord´s trilogy, Lotara in Betrayer, Cyrene in The First Heretic and that female wolf-inquisitor from The Emperor´s Gift are examples.

I think it works, and it adds value to his books. However, sometimes it feels forced and I would rather take the way Abnett and McNeill handled this problem in Horus Rising and False Gods. I would like other Black Library writers to try something like that too.

Now, just for the sake of fluffiness, here you have a fan-made drawing of Argel Tal and Cyrene:

I love it, almost as beautiful as that pic with a GK giving a SoB a flower.

Yep.

While sometimes it feels somehow ackward, I think it is at least a try to push the quality of the setting a step forward. I would like to see it more frequently in the setting... and in the game itself. To field a Space Marine´s Lieutenant Mira equivalent, for example, would be great.

 Mr Morden wrote:
(...)
Would you find it wierd if she was male? Just asking - or is it the human over Astartes that concerns you as he has a twisted relationship with his Legionaries and hates them perhaps the most.
(...)

I was wondering that too... it is a smelly box full or worms though, so I avoided the question.

Assuming is the 'human over Astartes' what bothers the OP, it was far more common in old fluff. So it may look odd that the incredible efficient captain, irreplaceable and one of the most valuable assets in the fleet, is treated like... well, one of the most valuable assets in the fleet. In some fluff you read nowadays, were she to die, a random Space Marine would just jump in and, in spite of lacking the training and the skill, will achieve awesome deeds out of pure heroicness. (and all this without eating her brain first, as Marines did in the good-old fluff)

Well compared to say a marine, even experienced one a skilled flagship captain is more valuble. They can lose a marine n little loss but to lose a skilled captain, your ship just lost a very rare indevidual.

Hard to fly about space on as great crusade minus a skilled captain at helm.

Hmm, this seems like a discussion worth continuing...

I haven't read much BL stuff so I don't know what it's like, but would you say the 40k book genre needs more in-depth story telling? Because I'm a writer and I like the background of 40k but I'm not really sure what to write about. I'm not really a big explosions, senseless violence type writer, so I feel like this stops me from exploring the realm, so to speak. Yet I read a lot on here about how the BL books lack any real "grit".

So lets explore the topic of women in 40k a little bit more. Angron and his Captain are a great example of women in the genre but what other examples exist and do they seem as forced? Also, would some realism, as in, real people being effected by this hyper violent situation, raise interest or would this detract from what GW is trying to do?

I kind of feel like GW keeps the books light because they know what an awful moral can of worms grimdark really could be, if approached in that manner. So would "realdark" be something GW wouldn't be interested in?

darkcloak wrote:
Hmm, this seems like a discussion worth continuing...

I haven't read much BL stuff so I don't know what it's like, but would you say the 40k book genre needs more in-depth story telling? Because I'm a writer and I like the background of 40k but I'm not really sure what to write about. I'm not really a big explosions, senseless violence type writer, so I feel like this stops me from exploring the realm, so to speak. Yet I read a lot on here about how the BL books lack any real "grit".

So lets explore the topic of women in 40k a little bit more. Angron and his Captain are a great example of women in the genre but what other examples exist and do they seem as forced? Also, would some realism, as in, real people being effected by this hyper violent situation, raise interest or would this detract from what GW is trying to do?

I kind of feel like GW keeps the books light because they know what an awful moral can of worms grimdark really could be, if approached in that manner. So would "realdark" be something GW wouldn't be interested in?

Examples of real Grim- Dark

Wrath of Iron - the Iron Hands are really really unpleasent and uncompromising and they are the "good guys"
Imperial Glory - what fighting Orks is really like

Women - many of the BL novels have a variety of female characters - many (but not all - and that is as important) are strong and important characters: Most of those in the Cain novels are as capable or more so than the central character, those in the ADB novels have been mentioned but also include those in Helsreach such as the Princeps Majoris commanding a good proprotion of a entire Titan Legion. Shianna Varlan in Deathwatch, various and highly varied characters in Eisenhorn, Gaunts Ghosts and Ravenor series, The interogator in Lord of the Night. Te Horus Heresy series has a good variety from the powerful Psykers to artists and Remberencers.

In short most of the really good authors have them - often as a effective counterpoint to the Astartes

There's a female inquisitor in one of Ragnar books.

She,s fairly capable and skilled but died in end to trap and re seal a deamon prison on a planet, nugile deamon prince.

Its only in the tabletop game that female characters are both rare and decreasing :(

darkcloak wrote:
I kind of feel like GW keeps the books light because they know what an awful moral can of worms grimdark really could be, if approached in that manner. So would "realdark" be something GW wouldn't be interested in?

40K fictions original remit was to provide lots and lots of action and no boring internalised drama - I'm paraphrasing, from a very old WD back when BL wasn't even a separate imprint, but that was the gist of it. I think that still holds true, though a few of their authors seem to be trying to do something more interesting and sneak some novel quality writing and characterisation in among the 'bolter porn.'

I think it's difficult to pull off though. The most realdark novel I can think of is The Armour of Contempt but that book depressed the hell out of me. Still I'd like to see more like that and less boy's own adventure power fantasies. For now I'll put my faith in Aaron Dembski Bowden and Dan Abnett (when he can be bothered, so not his HH work). Graham McNeill is on probation with me after Vengeful Spirit, which is probably the most shallow good guys vs bad guys pulp rubbish to have defiled the HH series to date.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden desperately wants to write erotica between Space Marines and human women, but Black Library won't let him. He does what he can in his novels to satiate this fetish.

Do you have ANYTHING at all to back that up?

Because to me, it came across mostly as respect for someone who was good at a form of warfare he wasn't all that interested in personally.

 da001 wrote:


Now, just for the sake of fluffiness, here you have a fan-made drawing of Argel Tal and Cyrene:

Just like shaq and his gf

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Aaron Dembski-Bowden desperately wants to write erotica between Space Marines and human women, but Black Library won't let him. He does what he can in his novels to satiate this fetish.

This made me laugh, very amusing!

There are a fair few female characters in the BL novels (Shira Calpurnia is the main protagonist for example) but it would be good to see something literary but based on the 40K setting, I don't see why it couldn't happen and not all BL novels should have to appeal to a universal audience, they could put a 'suggested for mature readers' sticker on the front if they had too, like the old Realm of Chaos books. IT would be really good to see a book that was more political or the like, a 40K House of Cards which might not even have any shooting in it at all *gasp*.

It's always interesting when they do have a female character interacting with a Space Marine, especially when there is a hint of a sexual dynamic at work as there could well be between two characters but, with a Space Marine so far removed from normal human drives it's interesting to see how the woman character, as the normal human, deals with, what is in effect, absolute rejection. They should have more novels that focus on this side of things and not just constant bolter porn.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Anyone who's read Betrayer knows what I'm talking about.
Angron has this weird relationship with this female captain who commands his flagship.
He protects her, and admonishes and even assaults astartes of his own legion who attempt to harm her, despite the gak she pulls.
What the hell?

Isn't it obvious? Angron is in Loovvveee

 Mr Morden wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
Hmm, this seems like a discussion worth continuing...

I haven't read much BL stuff so I don't know what it's like, but would you say the 40k book genre needs more in-depth story telling? Because I'm a writer and I like the background of 40k but I'm not really sure what to write about. I'm not really a big explosions, senseless violence type writer, so I feel like this stops me from exploring the realm, so to speak. Yet I read a lot on here about how the BL books lack any real "grit".

So lets explore the topic of women in 40k a little bit more. Angron and his Captain are a great example of women in the genre but what other examples exist and do they seem as forced? Also, would some realism, as in, real people being effected by this hyper violent situation, raise interest or would this detract from what GW is trying to do?

I kind of feel like GW keeps the books light because they know what an awful moral can of worms grimdark really could be, if approached in that manner. So would "realdark" be something GW wouldn't be interested in?

Examples of real Grim- Dark

Wrath of Iron - the Iron Hands are really really unpleasent and uncompromising and they are the "good guys"
Imperial Glory - what fighting Orks is really like

Women - many of the BL novels have a variety of female characters - many (but not all - and that is as important) are strong and important characters: Most of those in the Cain novels are as capable or more so than the central character, those in the ADB novels have been mentioned but also include those in Helsreach such as the Princeps Majoris commanding a good proprotion of a entire Titan Legion. Shianna Varlan in Deathwatch, various and highly varied characters in Eisenhorn, Gaunts Ghosts and Ravenor series, The interogator in Lord of the Night. Te Horus Heresy series has a good variety from the powerful Psykers to artists and Remberencers.

In short most of the really good authors have them - often as a effective counterpoint to the Astartes

I'd add Siege of Castellax to that list. It's one of the most grimdark novels I've read in 40K with it giving a superb look into what living under the rule of the Iron Warriors is like. Although I'm not a normal person, so I found several of the Chaos Space Marines in it sympathetic likable protagonists.

ADB has a fetish for Space Marines having creepy relationships with tiny women. Captain Lotara is to Angron as Cyrene is to Argel Tal as Annika Jarlsdottyr is to Hyperion as that pilot chick is to Sevetar.

Basically, you have this big bad Space Marine who's aloof as feth around Humans and doesn't take gak from any of them, except for this one woman who stands up to him all day long and he just kind of puts up with it.

It's an unsubtle attempt at defying tropes. "Hahahaha, women in fiction are generally depicted as being meek and fragile so I'm going to give the women in *my* stories huge balls and have them talk gak to these hyper-aggressive warrior-gods while their male counterparts all cower before them! Get it? Get it? Get it? It's like... the opposite of what you would expect from female characters in a novel!"

You'd think an Astartes would split a woman in two

 Gogsnik wrote:

This made me laugh, very amusing!

That wasn't a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Do you have ANYTHING at all to back that up?

Because to me, it came across mostly as respect for someone who was good at a form of warfare he wasn't all that interested in personally.

Angron and Lotara isn't nearly as blatant as Argel Tal and Cyrene, or Hyperion and basically every female character in The Emperor's Gift (Seriously, he has a shower flashback scene with some of them and one of them makes a comment about his dick or something), but it shows up so friggin' often in ADB's work that one can't help but think there's some serious author appeal at work. Like Stephen King and farts, or George R.R. Martin and women with large nipples. Or George R.R. Martin and food, come to think of it.

Nah GRM is more interested in Brother-Sister relationships............they seem quite common in his work?

It interesting how authors handle the whole male-female interaction thing between Astartes and humans - I quite like the ones who can vaguely remember that a given women would be sexually attractive but it just doesn't mean anything and its a dispassionate assessment based on half remembered impulses and drives that they have long since shed.

Its like the way they sort of understand the concept of fear and other emotions that they are not subject to, but as they don't really experience the understanding is vague......

I do like a bit of romance in my BL fiction but must admit I had not picked up on the Angron/Lotara as I just felt that was two warriors who worked together well interacting.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
ADB has a fetish for Space Marines having creepy relationships with tiny women. Captain Lotara is to Angron as Cyrene is to Argel Tal as Annika Jarlsdottyr is to Hyperion as that pilot chick is to Sevetar.

Basically, you have this big bad Space Marine who's aloof as feth around Humans and doesn't take gak from any of them, except for this one woman who stands up to him all day long and he just kind of puts up with it.

It's an unsubtle attempt at defying tropes. "Hahahaha, women in fiction are generally depicted as being meek and fragile so I'm going to give the women in *my* stories huge balls and have them talk gak to these hyper-aggressive warrior-gods while their male counterparts all cower before them! Get it? Get it? Get it? It's like... the opposite of what you would expect from female characters in a novel!"

behind every super-strong-space-warrior-with-a-small-parasitic-anger-device-in-his-brain there is a sheila. to paraphrase an Australian saying me gand-pappy used to tell at the barbey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah GRM is more interested in Brother-Sister relationships............they seem quite common in his work?

It interesting how authors handle the whole male-female interaction thing between Astartes and humans - I quite like the ones who can vaguely remember that a given women would be sexually attractive but it just doesn't mean anything and its a dispassionate assessment based on half remembered impulses and drives that they have long since shed.

Its like the way they sort of understand the concept of fear and other emotions that they are not subject to, but as they don't really experience the understanding is vague......

this. oh, in horus rising lokan doesn't know what black people are, THAT is hilarious.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Gogsnik wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Aaron Dembski-Bowden desperately wants to write erotica between Space Marines and human women, but Black Library won't let him. He does what he can in his novels to satiate this fetish.

This made me laugh, very amusing!

That wasn't a joke.

Still quite amusing... made me laugh too.
Reminds me of the elf-dwarf romance in the Hobbit, part 2.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
ADB has a fetish for Space Marines having creepy relationships with tiny women. Captain Lotara is to Angron as Cyrene is to Argel Tal as Annika Jarlsdottyr is to Hyperion as that pilot chick is to Sevetar.

Basically, you have this big bad Space Marine who's aloof as feth around Humans and doesn't take gak from any of them, except for this one woman who stands up to him all day long and he just kind of puts up with it.

It's an unsubtle attempt at defying tropes. "Hahahaha, women in fiction are generally depicted as being meek and fragile so I'm going to give the women in *my* stories huge balls and have them talk gak to these hyper-aggressive warrior-gods while their male counterparts all cower before them! Get it? Get it? Get it? It's like... the opposite of what you would expect from female characters in a novel!"

^So much this. I love to see human interactions in a novel, but this is too unsubtle for my taste. Sometimes it feels forced. Still better than the average though.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah GRM is more interested in Brother-Sister relationships............they seem quite common in his work?
(...)

Don´t forget castration: Varys, Theon, the enterity of the Unsullied....

Oh, and of course we have this:

Wasn't she suppose to remind him of the girl on his home planet or something like that?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Anyone who's read Betrayer knows what I'm talking about.
Angron has this weird relationship with this female captain who commands his flagship.
He protects her, and admonishes and even assaults astartes of his own legion who attempt to harm her, despite the gak she pulls.
What the hell?

Would you find it wierd if she was male? Just asking - or is it the human over Astartes that concerns you as he has a twisted relationship with his Legionaries and hates them perhaps the most.

She is everything he wants the captain of his flagship to be and he respect and values that - most of the Legion are far more replacable than she is.

What "gak she pulls" do you refer to?

She shoots an astartes with a weapon incapable of harming him. And is then saved by Angron.
Whole mess of factors make it weird.
1. Angron possessing any emotion other than hate, spite, rage?
2. Angron actually protecting this person with more readiness than he protects fething Lorgar.
3. Angron mentions her gender multiple times. The Imperium isn't sexist, but he notes the added difficulty she had.
4. Angron breaking the code he has for Kharn (the only other person he likes and respects) and saving her when she fethed up, instead of acknowledging it was her fight. There's more than simple respect going on here.
5. A primarch with some bizzare form of interest in the opposite sex?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

5. A primarch with some bizzare form of interest in the opposite sex?

Wow.

Imagine the fanfics.

da001 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's an unsubtle attempt at defying tropes. "Hahahaha, women in fiction are generally depicted as being meek and fragile so I'm going to give the women in *my* stories huge balls and have them talk gak to these hyper-aggressive warrior-gods while their male counterparts all cower before them! Get it? Get it? Get it? It's like... the opposite of what you would expect from female characters in a novel!"

^So much this. I love to see human interactions in a novel, but this is too unsubtle for my taste. Sometimes it feels forced. Still better than the average though.

Worse than average, since it is not really in good faith. If an author does not do this kind of thing, he can maintain some basic candor.