Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,
We are working on a GT specific FAQ. I can't say that this will cover every rules question that will come up, but we are trying to answer both the commonly asked questions about the GTs in general and some rules topics. It is still a few weeks away from publishing though.

Another note that you may all find interesting - upon further review, we have decided to include the Dwarf Slayer list from SoC to the approved list of armies. I wasn't aware that the design studio FAQ addressed the differences between the books, so this list is should work out again. If by some chance they would also clarify the Grimgor and Middenheim lists, I would include them as well, but for now those 2 are still out due to the conflicts between the list and parent books.
Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Hey Jeff,

How 'bout the Chosen of Ahriman? 

I know...  I  know...  But it doesn't hurt to ask, right?

Vale,

JohnS

Just realized I missed an earlier question - This is the full year schedule. There won't be any additional events added to the circuit in 2007.

John - Sorry, no plans to add the Chosen of Ahriman!

And as a final reminder (since I have received some calls and emails on the subject) here is the breakdown again on how the events are:

Games Day Tournaments
These are Atlanta (April 28), Baltimore (June 23), and Los Angeles (August 11)
These events are 1 day tournaments with 1500 pt armies for 40K and WFB, and 500 pts for LOTR.
These are Saturday only events

Grand Tournaments
These are Las Vegas (June 1-3), Chicago (July 27-28), and Baltimore (November 2-4)
These are 2 day events for the tournament portion. Vegas and Baltimore are Saturday-Sunday tournaments, Chicago is a Friday-Saturday tournament.
Vegas and Baltimore will feature Friday set-up, registration, open gaming, and other events
Points are 1750 for 40K, 2000 for WFB, and 500 for LOTR

Adepticon and the Necro have their own rules and point limits. See their sites for details.

I hope that clears up any confusion!

Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Uh, Dr. Thunder, time management and smart use of money has no bearing on table top mini gaming tournaments. If a guy wins overall with an army he didn't paint, why doesn't the guy who painted the army get the trophy? Why can't I paint a killer themed army and hire Mauleed to be my General, while I suck up to the competition to get great sportmanship points? Or better yet, hire a beautiful woman to be my "good sport". If I don't have to earn my paint points, why do I have to earn any of my GT points?

I''ll say again, if you don't have time/want to paint, go ahead and buy your army. But you should not be eligible for overall. It really is that simple.

engine

Hey Jeff,

I want to thank you for being responsive to all of the questions and issues that people are talking about.  It is a breath of fresh air to have someone from GW actually responding to the forums.  We may not all agree with everything, but your continued feedback is greatly appreciated.

BTW - I would like to put in a request for 2008.  Would you be able to start working with the UK so that Americans can qualify in the states to go to the UK GT finals?  Alas - it was a fun trip, but not worth doing two trips to the UK each year. 

Talk to ya' later,

Greg

Posted By engine on 01/03/2007 7:04 PM
Uh, Dr. Thunder, time management and smart use of money has no bearing on table top mini gaming tournaments.

Sure it does, because time and money management are elements that heavily influence your eventual score.  The question to ask ourselves is this: When does a tournament game begin?  If you said when you arrive at the table, then you are wrong. The game itself is only the final step in a long process that leads up to the tournament game. From the minute a player chooses his army, he has made a decision that will affect his final score. The time and effort put into the conversions and painting, the creativity of theme and execution and fluff are all componants that will factor into his final score. The more a player prepares before a tournament begins, which includes practicing with his army, the more advantage he has once the tournament begins.
By the time the tournament begins, the players are hardly on level footing anymore. They have already given themselves a huge advantage or disadvantage based upon their preperation.
Preparation is a huge part of doing well in a tournament, and time and money management are key ingredients in that preparation.

<address>If a guy wins overall with an army he didn't paint, why doesn't the guy who painted the army get the trophy? </address>

I like the idea that was proposed earlier, of giving the trophy to the person who painted it afterwards.  Seems like a good compromise to me.

<address>If I don't have to earn my paint points, why do I have to earn any of my GT points?
</address>

But you do earn them.  It's no different then paying someone to build your house or do your taxes.  If you pay for it and oversee it, you are still the one making it happen.  Using the skills of another person is just a resource you are using to make it happen.  It is not much different, in my mind, then recieving tactical advise or painting tips from other players.

<address>
I''ll say again, if you don't have time/want to paint, go ahead and buy your army. But you should not be eligible for overall. It really is that simple.</address>

Well, I'm painting my own stuff, so we're really talking about theoretical "other" players, not me, but you never addressed the points I made earlier.  Why should we judge the results for everything else except painting?  Why does it not matter what lead to your scores in battle and sportsmanship, but it does matter what lead to your scores for painting?  Why the inconsistency?

I made a difference. YAY!   I'm sure all of the Slayer army players will be happy now.  After all, it's easy enough to make an 'Ardboyz army into a standar Orc army or a Middenheim army into a standard Empire army but it's not as easy to make a Slayer army into a standard Dwarf army.

Posted By engine on 01/03/2007 7:04 PM
Uh, Dr. Thunder, time management and smart use of money has no bearing on table top mini gaming tournaments. If a guy wins overall with an army he didn't paint, why doesn't the guy who painted the army get the trophy? Why can't I paint a killer themed army and hire Mauleed to be my General, while I suck up to the competition to get great sportmanship points? Or better yet, hire a beautiful woman to be my "good sport". If I don't have to earn my paint points, why do I have to earn any of my GT points?

I''ll say again, if you don't have time/want to paint, go ahead and buy your army. But you should not be eligible for overall. It really is that simple.

engine

I think you should be eligible for overall. Youre paying for the service of the army being done, which is just like doing it yourself in some ways.

Youre bringing a wonderful army for opponents to play against. Thats alot better than some environments.
Besides, when was the last time someone got best overall when the person playing it didnt really do it themselves? I am willing to bet that the people that did put the time and effort are the ones who won as opposed to the ones who just bought ready made armies.

They are not however eliglble for players choice nor best painted army.

Seems reasonable to me in my opinion, just a it seems unreasonable in yours.

BTW - I would like to put in a request for 2008. Would you be able to start working with the UK so that Americans can qualify in the states to go to the UK GT finals? Alas - it was a fun trip, but not worth doing two trips to the UK each year.


Hey Jeff how about talking to our neighbors to the north also. They have it set up to be all but impossible for non residents to make it to the big game.
It could be the top overall point guys for the year abile to go.

catachan question?? didnt they come out with a new for download book on the GW site??

Team events sound awesome Jeff!!!

It is all about playing with toy soldiers, drinking beer and having a good time..

Now that's a great idea.

These rules are a great step in the right direction, but the deal breaker for me is the exclusion of Forgeworld rules yet again.  If composition is no longer an issue, does it matter if rare units are fielded?  If these are the Grand Tournaments, shouldn't they pull out all the stops?  I find it hard to believe that the players at the largest tournaments of them all wouldn't be familiar with all the units out there.  Many RTTs are allowing Forgeworld units now with the exception of super-heavies, flyers, and creatures with mass points, and I am really urging GW US to begin to allow this in tournament play.  As the proud owner of a heavily converted and painted Kroot army that includes 500 points (and $500) worth of Forgeworld units, I'm dying for a chance to one day field my entire army at a Grand Tournament, and am greatly disappointed that it won't be this year.

Any chance on reconsidering for next year, Jeff? 

- Oaka

Jeff, Question about the GT venues. Is this going to be a return to the smaller hotel style or still at a convention center. I do miss the old days of the Hotel GT?s.

Thomas

Posted By GWEvents on 01/03/2007 5:33 PM
Hey guys,
We are working on a GT specific FAQ. I can't say that this will cover every rules question that will come up, but we are trying to answer both the commonly asked questions about the GTs in general and some rules topics. It is still a few weeks away from publishing though.

Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Jeff, I'd like to put another voice in for using the Unofficial Dakka FAQ (AKA the YakFAQ, in honor of Yakface's excellent work), or possibly the Adepticon FAQ.  Both have rulings any given person may disagree with, but both are very well done, very comprehensive (particularly Yak's) and represent a great deal of work that shoudn't have to be completely duplicated.

I'd recommend at least having a look:

http://dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/15/postid/46258/view/topic/Default.aspx

-Ragnar

Wow, this is awesome.

I want to ask a clarification on the "count as" rule.

You had mentioned as long as it was explained and point out this was ok. However, im using marines, what about special characters (lysander) used in an army that was not imperial fist for his special rules?

 

Edit:  Additional Question, It says that Space Marines may use a deathwatch killteam, but not IG, which according to the rules printed on the GW site for the Deathwatch, may be taken as a HQ choice in a IG army.  So are Deathwatch Killteam's permissible for IG armies

Thanks for the continued feedback. As to the latest questions:
Counts as rules are primarily for using models as something else (that still makes sense). For example, using your Kislev Winged Lancers as Empire Knights since the Kislev rules are not available for the GT. You still have to follow the rules for things if you want to use the RULES, and not just the MODELS. So you can only use the Lysander with his rules in an Imp Fist army (following all their rules). You can use the Lysander model in any Marine force with the proper weapon build, but to use his rules, you have to be playing Imperial Fist.

As for venues, they are still at Convention Centers. I tried long and hard to find affordable hotels and it just wasn't happening for the size venue we needed.

Finally, to Oaka's comments on FW rules. Unfortunately this is something I have no control over. We are only permitted to use Design Studio rules, so until FW falls under the Official headings, you are not likely to see their rules appear in a GT or Games Day tournament. Now if we run a Campaign weekend or something like that in future years, we would look at using that stuff. But for tournaments, it is not likely to happen.

Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Jeff, I was wondering why the drop in points at the GT's this year.  I know several people who have stated they will not attend due to the drop in points and admit that it is making me wonder if I wish to attend.  It seems like most events are going up in points rather than down.

Second I too agree with the "if you dont paint it you cant win it".  Overall should contend with overall in the hobby and purchasing a painted army does not qualify as overall.  The comparison to someone building your house is a poor comparison as you are not building your house as a competition.  The GT's are not a team event (barring anything listed as a team event in vegas heh) therefore you should rely on your own abilities.  If you are not the best painted then you make up for that in other areas to compensate. 

If you want the GT trophy that bad, it would probably only cost you 20 bucks to get one.  Wouldnt that be a better investment of your time and money?

Jeff,
Sorry you posted yet? You do realize, we're never going to stop with the questions now. And if you don't answer each and every one in a timely fashion, we'll get stroppy...

I'm one of those slow players.. not on purpose but I guess I just think too much when I play .. I like the drop in points, less models for me to push around and think about

I'm guessing they prolly lowered it because 40k games were taking a bit longer to finish and they don't want too many incomplete games

Sorry, wrong. Fair use makes no exceptions for intentional infringement of copyright solely for your own personal use. Recasting is not parody, and not comment/criticism, which are the two major types of fair use exception; it's just copying.

I'd recomment this overview of copyright and fair use for anyone who wants to know more.

When you answer the Deathwatch question above, also answer a related kroot question here.

You say you can use kroot merc list which I have assumed up until that last question that you can use kroot in an IG army or Eldar army as allies, But then the above poster pointed out that some allies were specifically mentioned, does that mean the ones not specifically mentioned are not included?

I just checked the rules for 2005, and 2006 it is worded the same way and kroot allies were allowed then, the same goes for putting Deathwatch in IG armies, so again I am assuming you can still use Deathwatch as allies in any army the deathwatch rules allow and kroot allies in any army the kroot rules allow.

But this is just based on past interpretations of the same rule in past seasons.

Wulfy

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 01/03/2007 8:15 PM

Well, I'm painting my own stuff, so we're really talking about theoretical "other" players, not me, but you never addressed the points I made earlier.  Why should we judge the results for everything else except painting?  Why does it not matter what lead to your scores in battle and sportsmanship, but it does matter what lead to your scores for painting?  Why the inconsistency?

So you would be cool with hiring out any aspect of the score?

Aren't hobbies a little bit different than "getting my taxes done"?  Isn't an intergral point of a hobby actually doing the hobby work?  Buying a finished train set/model/army diminshes the final product, especially if you are entering it for competition!
I guess I am old fashion in that if you are being judged in a specific category, you should have accomplished it personally, not had someone do it for you (whether you tender money or not).  That is the point I am making with hiring out the other scores.  I could spend a lot more time on my army if I had a great 40k player actually command my army.  Makes good time management sense to me, except that it seems just as silly as buying an army and winning overall with it.

The hobby aspect is a great equalizer.  If I am forced to paint my own army, it does level the playing field vs. someone with a big trust fund that can buy his win.  If I went to a GT and lost overall by a couple of points to a guy who purchased an army, I'd be some pissed.  "overall" champion?  Whatever.

engine

As others pointed out, the problem with the situation is that the rule only punishes the honest guy who declares that he paid to have his minis painted.

Someone who doesn't care can simply not declare that his army was painted and no one will know any better (it's not that hard to keep the fact that you've had your army painted a complete secret).

The simple fact is, time is money and some people have much more money than they have time to paint. Unfortunately, GW doesn't host any tournaments that don't incorporate a painting score (nor do very many independent tournies) so basically someone who doesn't have the time or talent to paint stands little to no chance of ever winning a grand tournament no matter how good he is in the other elements of the game.

I personally have no issue with pro-painted armies winning the overall mark. At the very least it helps make declaring that your army has been pro-painted a no-brainer for any decent player.

Everyone should have the chance to win a GT, and if you're some guy who works 90 hours a week and can afford to pay a top notch painter to paint your army (and you are a helluva nice guy and have some great tactics too) then I certainly wouldn't begrudge the win.

Posted By engine on 01/05/2007 8:58 PM

Aren't hobbies a little bit different than "getting my taxes done"?  Isn't an intergral point of a hobby actually doing the hobby work? 

Not really.  Accomplishing anything requires an expenditure of resources, and the mixuture of resources varies from person to person.  Some people have lots of free time but no money, so they accomplish an army by painting it themselves.  Other people have lots of money but little to no free time, so they accomplish an army buy paying someone to do it.  Either way, it is simply using the resources you have to accomplish a goal you want to acheive.  Talent is also a resource, and can be used to one's benfit whether one posesses it oneself, or one uses talent posessed by another.

<address>So you would be cool with hiring out any aspect of the score?</address>

We all do that to a certain entent.  Every time we ask someone for painting advice, or conversion help, or list building advice, or tactical advise, we are tapping into the skills of others to improve our eventual results.  The main difference is that most people will give that kind of help for free, but it does not change the nature of the act, which is using the skills and experience of others to improve our own tournament preformance.

<address>Buying a finished train set/model/army diminshes the final product, especially if you are entering it for competition!</address>

Depending on the skills of the people involved, it may actually enlarge the final product.  Some people have a natural talent for making beautiful miniatures effortlessly, while other people struggle to even turn out something average.  When creating something for a competition, a person will naturally want to create the best thing they can with their available resources.

<address>The hobby aspect is a great equalizer.  If I am forced to paint my own army, it does level the playing field vs. someone with a big trust fund that can buy his win.  If I went to a GT and lost overall by a couple of points to a guy who purchased an army, I'd be some pissed.  "overall" champion?  Whatever.</address>

Well, this really strikes at the heart of it, doesn't it?  Do you dislike the idea because you are morally objected to it, or because it represents a threat to your personal chances of winning?  (I'm not being flippant, I am asking seriously)

Consider also the fact that it takes a big chunk of time and money to even attend a GT in the first place, so we've already cut out a large chunk of players who do not have enough money to attend a GT in the first place.  The tournament circuit only increases the seperation, as only a small group of players are going to have the money to attend multiple GT's, and thus increase their chances of winning the entire circuit.  Money being an advantage is already heavily built into the system, wouldn't you agree?

Another point:

According to your profile, you live in or near Wisconsin, which means that in years past you have had a huge advantage over players like myself who live out in Utah.  You had a quarter the traveling distance I did, which means it cost you far less money and travel time to attend the GT's.  I also had a work schedule that was extremely inflexible compared to most other people.  You had a distinct advantage over me based on the details of your life.  You did not earn it, it was just there.  Was that advantage taken into account in the scoring?  No, it wasn't.  The results only were judged, not the process by which they came about.

I know several players who have keen minds for tactics.  They can effortlessly deconstruct the game into its tactical componants and play out various scenarious in their minds, looking five and six turns ahead, while I struggeled to even conceive of a few basic moves for the next turn.  They had a distinct advantage over me based on the nature of their minds.  They did not earn it, it was just there.  Was that advantage taken into account in the scoring?  No, it wasn't.  The results only were judged, not the process by which they came about.

Take note that I am not complaining in any way, I'm just pointing out that there are nearly infinate combinations of resources and life details that give each player a certain number of advantages and disadvantages before the tournament begins, and none of those are taken into account.  The only thing that is judged is the final preformance.  So, why, suddenly, do we make an exception with painting?  Why not judge painting the same way we judge everything else at the tournament, which is by the result, not by the source?

I use to be against anyone winning overall with a bought army but there's been some good points made in this thread.

What they should do is simply attribute the win to both the painter and the general for overall and the painter for a favorite army, noting in either case the situation. Takes away punishing the honest people and gives credit where credit is due. I don't have a problem with a GT win by a team of sorts as long as only one guy is general (more because of time constraints) and proper credit is given. Think of it like NASCAR (ie driver and pit crew).

You know, I thought the same way as winterman until this thread. Then again it seems at most Gw's you need to have your army at least primed now just to use the tables (At least the one here in Holyoke, MA is like that now.)

Well since we all should buy our armies rather than invest personal time to improve our paint skills lets just all go play Hero Clicks or Star Wars Minis.  Basically then you can show up with a nasty army, beat the hell out of your opponent, and walk away happy because you crushed a 14 year old.  That isnt what the GW hobby is about and the hobby side is what seperates us from those other types of table top games.

The GT is based on the HOBBY!  Its not based on your purchasing potential rather its based on your abilty to compete in the entire hobby, hence paint scores.  What does forcing your players to paint their own armies do?  It forces them to improve doesnt it? 

Its not now, nor will it ever be an even playing field and that is the point.  Competition is about forced improvement to out-do your opponent.  Its not about leveling the playing field so everyone feels its fair.  If your a runner, you dont add 40LBS of lead to a guy because he is faster.  Instead everyone has to IMPROVE to his level.  The NASCAR reference is scary as they feel they should keep changing everyones car to make it "even".  Guess what, someone still comes out on top by wide margins.

The continued reference to "I work hard to earn the money to pay for my army so I think I should win a paint contest with it" is bogus.  I bust my arse at work, work more hours than a typical person, do a lot of traveling so I am rarely home to work on my army yet still manage to get my armies done (by myself) to a high standard for the GT's.  Doc you make some logical arguments but act like your a victim.  I have to travel 800-900 miles to get to GT's as well and seem to have the same disadvantages you have but have won a majority of the major awards at several GT's.  I saw the standards, improved my skills, and met the challenge.  Try it and I think you will find it is very rewarding.

Dont lower the standards of the GT simply because you want the easy way out.  The GT should be about your accomplishments and not your pocket book.  Improve yourself to meet the standards rather than complain the standards be lowered to meet you.  My painting has improved tremendously in the last 3 years because of the GT's and with time and practice most of you can acheive the same thing.

You know what though. Miniature wargaming is a hobby made up of two aspects. modeling and gaming. Should we force everyone involved in the hobby to take part in both aspects?

Modelling has a fully supported GW competition: Gold Demon. You don't see rules that force those painters/modelers to play a game with their models, do you? Most of them have no desire to play the game. Might be because they suck at it or they are just not interested. So should we force them to compete in the HOBBY as whole? It should work both ways, shouldn't it?

I'd be curious to find out peoples responses to the abover questions.

As an aside, I enjoy all aspects of the hobby and I'd never consider competeing with an army I didn't paint (unless it was an emergency of some kind, like my army was stolen or something).

You know what though. Miniature wargaming is a hobby made up of two aspects. modeling and gaming. Should we force everyone involved in the hobby to take part in both aspects?

Modelling has a fully supported GW competition: Gold Demon. You don't see rules that force those painters/modelers to play a game with their models, do you? Most of them have no desire to play the game. Might be because they suck at it or they are just not interested. So should we force them to compete in the HOBBY as whole? It should work both ways, shouldn't it?

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Make them play.

No, but the Golden Daemon is a painting competition. Guess what happened when GW found out that at two of the Games Days people paid for their painted figures? They were disqualified. The hobby may be made up of two aspects, but the GT is judged on both aspects. Are you then saying that people should show up to a GT with unpained models? "Yes sir, this is my Grey Knights army. They are grey....and they are knights."

Winterman in answer to your questions the Demon awards are strictly painting.  GW however does require that your squads etc.. have to meet codex requirements thereby requiring the painter to hopefully know something about the hobby.  In other words you cant enter 4 marines as a squad entry as it does not meet the minimum requirements of the squad.  Hawiian is correct that several Demon awards have been given to models that were purchased on ebay or painted by someone other than the one who entered it and they were disqualified.  Most of the time this was discovered after the fact so there was no way to get the trophy back however.  It was the paiinting community in most cases that made the discovery. 

I dont beleive the GT is now or has ever been about just showing up and beating the crap out of your opponent (well at least not for everyone heh).  GW designed the GT system around the hobby not just the gaming aspect.  This means YOU must compete in all aspects if you have a chance to win overall.  If you show up to beat the crap out of your opponent then realistically you are going for best general award.  If you show up with a nice fluffy army that you know has no chance in winning then you really are going for the best army/painting side (usually where I end up).  If you can manage to do both then VOILA we have a winner!!

Sorry I seem so adament about this.