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I'd just discount that, some of his other points make plenty of sense.
That's hyperbole.
I think everyone on here wants to improve the hobby, the problem being that no two people agree what that improvement could be!

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 8:41 AM
Aye, where I play, they think people on this board are crazy.

In fact, our leading general right now is a DA player with a mixed RW and DW force.

I refuse to believe that Dakka posters are the gold standard for rules balance, and great tactics.

What dakka posters are is a gold standard for cancerous whiners who are hell bent on ruining a hobby.

Lower amounts of assault cannons and non min maxed las/plas squads do not a bad codex make.

Hell, people here still have issues with godzilla nid armies. I have ever seen but one out of the 20 attempts actually win.

Do those nid players ALL suck? Hells no. Godzilla nids with devourer toting carnifexes just suck is all.

I sense a new siggy.

Dakka is more brutal and tournamenty I'll grant you that. However, I'd also warrant its also made up of a higher number of "veteran" players that have been around a bit, who also play or have experience with other systems.

It's very tournamenty.
But that's interesting to me as a club gamer. The cries of "nerf" about assault cannon reduction perhaps should have been "fix!" though
(My sorta sympathies to any who had bought a whole bunch of 'em, but I can't feel too much pity, it's just too damned beardy! And yes, it is GW's fault for letting you, but even then...)

That's kinda sad, really - the cults used to be more diverse.

They'd still need to include those special weapons where appropriate (you can have my blastmaster when you pry it from my cold, dead, sticky fingers), and the Mark rules would have to pick up most of the slack of defining what makes a Cult marine.

There are a lot of results out of Adepticon this past weekend that would seriously weaken this argument....

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 8:41 AM

Lower amounts of assault cannons and non min maxed las/plas squads do not a bad codex make.

There's a huge, throbbing, difference between "bad" and "uncompetitive (in the current top-end play environment)".  Most of the complaints from Dakkaites have been that the codex is the latter.  The secondary complaint is that it has less total options than previous lists, which is frequently asserted to be demonstrative of a bad codex.

If you give choice, it is abused in a high end top play environment.
If you take away choice to limit abuse, it's a nerf.
In this case, GW really can't win. They're trying to please all comers, but it's not working properly.
I don't see 40K as a tournement game though, for me tourneys are occasions to meet other gamers and go to the pub. So discount my arguments if you're a ferverent believer that it can and should be.
But I think if you want a balanced tournament environment, you gotta accept a certain level of reduced choice.
(The second part could be because I'm Irish though)

This can be done. ONly certain "balanced" lists can make it to a GT. Other lists are playable, but not at a GT. Whats the problem?

Posted By Janthkin on 04/05/2007 9:07 AM

And with a short, simple rule, you're missing... Plague Marines in Rhinos as fast attack, and Emperor's Children vehicle weapon swaps.

That's kinda sad, really - the cults used to be more diverse.

They'd still need to include those special weapons where appropriate (you can have my blastmaster when you pry it from my cold, dead, sticky fingers), and the Mark rules would have to pick up most of the slack of defining what makes a Cult marine.

Well, yeah -- at least since the current Chaos codex, playing the cult lists is more of a theme decision than anything else, with the main bonuses (free champs and +1 to summoning) there to offset the penalties of not taking unmarked (or differently marked) models.  That's the current cult rules -- a couple of nice but not ungodly bonuses to offset the limitations.

With what's been published lately, I doubt sonic weaponry is going away anytime soon; I expect we'll just get Noise Marines (and potentially Noise Marine Havocs and Noise Marine Bikers) as separate army list entries with their unique weaponry as standard squad options.  I'd be much more concerned about losing the ability of IW to take Basilisks and other stuff like Stealth Adept than really big changes in the cult lists -- I don't anticipate marked troops going away as entities on the tabletops, and the cults as they exist are such minor modifications over Black Legion.

I would be curious to see what the results would show. Anyone have any of the stats by army or anything?

I am very curious about the performance of the army.

Posted By jfrazell on 04/05/2007 9:20 AM
This can be done. ONly certain "balanced" lists can make it to a GT. Other lists are playable, but not at a GT. Whats the problem?

Good point.

I'll tell you what Dakka posters are, they are a cross section of the hobby. And 'they' include you. I always find it amusing when someone makes a statement, that some posters agree with and others disagree with that the disagree crowd is lumped in as "Dakka".

Dakka is everyone who posts here, people who agree with you and people who don't.

I'll tell you what we're not ... we're not bent on ruining the hobby. We (including you) CARE about the hobby or we wouldn't post here.

Someday you'll learn that the way to win an argument is not to accuse those who take a counter point of being evil. But until then, please remember that it is THEORETICALLY possible for someone to disagree with you and NOT be out to destroy the known universe... or even a cool hobby.

Sorry, that has me grinning.
Good post, and I apologise for lumping people in as "Dakka", obviously I'm a contributer. What I should have said is that certain attitudes are more common here than in other places I've browsed.

On the whole, I quite enjoy dakkadakka. Not agreeing with people leads to interesting chats.

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 8:41 AM
Aye, where I play, they think people on this board are crazy.

In fact, our leading general right now is a DA player with a mixed RW and DW force.

I refuse to believe that Dakka posters are the gold standard for rules balance, and great tactics.

What dakka posters are is a gold standard for cancerous whiners who are hell bent on ruining a hobby.

Lower amounts of assault cannons and non min maxed las/plas squads do not a bad codex make.

Hell, people here still have issues with godzilla nid armies. I have ever seen but one out of the 20 attempts actually win.

Do those nid players ALL suck? Hells no. Godzilla nids with devourer toting carnifexes just suck is all.

Translation,

I am a 14 year old attention whore! Pay attention to me!  Dakka made fun of my Pan Fo being reviled and made me cry!!!!!

Posted By Dice Monkey on 04/05/2007 10:03 AM

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 8:41 AM
Aye, where I play, they think people on this board are crazy.

In fact, our leading general right now is a DA player with a mixed RW and DW force.

I refuse to believe that Dakka posters are the gold standard for rules balance, and great tactics.

What dakka posters are is a gold standard for cancerous whiners who are hell bent on ruining a hobby.

Lower amounts of assault cannons and non min maxed las/plas squads do not a bad codex make.

Hell, people here still have issues with godzilla nid armies. I have ever seen but one out of the 20 attempts actually win.

Do those nid players ALL suck? Hells no. Godzilla nids with devourer toting carnifexes just suck is all.

Translation,

I am a 14 year old attention whore! Pay attention to me!  Dakka made fun of my Pan Fo being reviled and made me cry!!!!!

All your secrets are belong to us when the Pan Fo are reviled!

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 8:41 AM
Aye, where I play, they think people on this board are crazy.

In fact, our leading general right now is a DA player with a mixed RW and DW force.

I refuse to believe that Dakka posters are the gold standard for rules balance, and great tactics.

What dakka posters are is a gold standard for cancerous whiners who are hell bent on ruining a hobby.

Lower amounts of assault cannons and non min maxed las/plas squads do not a bad codex make.

Hell, people here still have issues with godzilla nid armies. I have ever seen but one out of the 20 attempts actually win.

Do those nid players ALL suck? Hells no. Godzilla nids with devourer toting carnifexes just suck is all.

This just makes me laugh.  So your top end player uses mixed RW & DW?  And you've only seen 1 out of 20 Godzilla nid army's win a game?

I'm always amazed when I read such obnoxious statements, that fly in the face of all rhyme or reason of anyone who has played this game for about 3 months. 

See what I love about dakka is that silly statements like this get pointed at and mocked, as they should be.   It's like when I go to Warseer and see a poll on whether the Lascannon or Missile Launcher is a better option and see the Missile Launcher winning by a large margin, with pages of posts defending the virtue of such a clearly inferior weapon. 

No, Dakka is a place where such stupidity is kept in check by those members who actually know how to play the games we're discussing.  And yet, amazingly I can come here and STILL see amazing pieces of modeling and painting, discussion of news, and every other aspect of the hobby.   It's the very definition of a place that's healthy for the people in the hobby.

Jervis fiddles while GW burns.

Between the ate up buisness practices, the outragous pricing, and the never stable rules " Improvements" I am now a confirmed skeptic to the GW attept to dig themselves out of thier own grave. Unless they fix their own blatiently stupid issues, this company won't last another year.


My only want is a decent miniatures game that is fun to play, is that so much to ask for? Explain the thought process behind this " Rumor"?

Im not mad....

One thing I want to point out:

Building list which are not the best config of the codex doesn't equal stupidity.

I play Tyranids without any range attacks, sure it's lousy compared to Godzilla, am I stupid because of that? I don't guess so...on the other hand I wouldn't come along and say that I play in an overly competitive environment which is into that tournament play.

The only new rumor that makes me sad is that we won't see any Space Skaven in the future...that would have been fun. But again, I have enough armies to paint.

And honestly, all the crying about Gw killing the Craftworlds with the new codex is a it exaggerated. In reference to the new Chaos codex, I'm almost sure the Legions will be tuned down like in the new Eldar Codex. Let's just hope they don't kill them off altogether, but to grand everyone his personal cheesebaby won't survive another year in business as well.

Greets
Schepp himself

That's true Russ, I am part of the Dakka Community, but my amount of hate spewing is consciderably lower than say. Hellfury?

Go look at a page, pick one, count the number of threads, now see how many are filled with complaining.

Go to the Dark Angles thread, see what percent of that is hate.

That codex is better than fine, and the only problem it has is a lack of 2 assault cannons in a min/maxed squad, plus the 10 man squad and lack of min/maxed las plas squads.

I still agree that Godzilla Nid lists suck Rhino Testes.

In my 19 years of playing GW, this is the most concentrated bunch of whiners I have ever seen.


I need to get back on topic though.


If they make ALL of the codexes the same way they made the DA and eldar books, the game will be fine, but that requires a redo of the SM codex sooner than later.

I agree with an above poster that this is a step back toward second edition.

The squads' options where listed on the same page. Numbers where mostly static and the game was fine.

This game will be fine as soon as they put the move stat back in, give weapons more creative ranges, and not multiples of 6 and make LD worth something, thats the only things 40K is missing now.

*cough* And better rules support. And an new Ork Codex. And...but I digress.

GW has been going in a new direction for a while. Blisters are going away and we're seeing more (prettier) boxes. The last couple codecies have significantly changed format. Rumors windos are shrinking. It's inevitable GW is going to abandon some fanboys along the way (ask anyone who has to rip arms off Dark Angels models to bring their army in line with the new Codex).

All we can do is voice our concerns (whining to some) and hope GW takes our comments into consideration. Or we can move on to other, better systems.

You're not hanging out on Warseer too are you? Seem to be a few complainers going on there as well:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1445420#post1445420

% Hate: I think if you review this very thread, you'll find that its only a few posters that disagree with you, and that quite a few folks LIKE the new DA codex direction.  Of the ones that disagree with your position, there are only perhaps one or two that I would describe as rude (hateful?).    To be honest, the only name calling in this thread is coming from you.  And you are attacking people who haven't even commented on your discussion (i.e. EVERYONE who posts on Dakka).

Godzilla Nid List stinky
Your position on the Nidzilla list being weak is debatable at best.  Just attend a tourney or other competitive event to see for yourself.   The most common army I saw at Adepticon this past weekend (remember 360+ players) was Nidzilla.  It even outnumbered marine drop pods.  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but others are entitled to theirs without being accused of being hateful. 

DA Codex
For the record, I LIKE the new DA codex and the direction GW is taking with it.  PP and other companies control game balance by limiting unit options.  Variety comes from how you combine your various units, not how you modify a particular unit.  By making these changes it will give GW more control over game balance, and allow them to keep the armies distinct. 

 

Hey voodoo. Opinions are just that. I see a lot more missle launchers in dev squads than las cannons any day. Statistically for the price they are much better than Las cannons in DA dev squads for certain.

and how about other systems, that may not be better.

The general concensus of Dakka is usually a lot different than a lot of the world. It is because of the people that play here and the gaming groups they are in. But I count myself as a part of Dakka, and I disagree and argue with a lot of what is said on here.

I guess I'll pitch my 2 cents in. I spent some time talking to Jervis (and I was the guy who interviewed him in the first place for the AdeptiCon Spotlight.). He's definitely loyal to the company, which isn't a bad thing, but the guy does genuinely care for the hobby.

Now, I'm reading into a lot of things here, but it seems to me that Jervis does recognize a lot of flaws with the system. They've got a lot of contradictory goals, however, which are what causes the issues that we see. Since they've basically disavowed the practice of releasing rules modifications online/WD (with a few exceptions), they're left with trying to fix things as they go. IF they can keep to that committment, than I think in about 2 years there's going to be some great improvements in balance and stuff. After talking with Jervis, I'm convinced that 40K is headed in the right general direction, from both a casual hobbyist viewpoint and a tournament gamer viewpoint. Sure, there's going to be some compromises, but in general, I think that the game is headed in the right direction.

As an aside, I can tell you that I'm glad that some of the Studio guys got a chance to come out and see how an American tournament works. The generally dismissive attitude of the Studio towards tournament play may stem largely from the...um...extremely vigorous...nature of tournament play in the UK. By their standards, us Yanks were a bunch of good-natured, easy-going blokes who never argued about anything. The fact that a "yellow card" system was largely unnecessary seemed to astonish them. Having had a few friends who flew over to compete in the UK GT, and the acceptable level of behavior there...I can understand their surprise.

So I guess what I'm saying is that while the rumors from AdeptiCon were pretty...well...nonexistent. I do like the direction that the game is heading. It just might be a while to get there.

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 11:42 AM
That's true Russ, I am part of the Dakka Community, but my amount of hate spewing is consciderably lower than say. Hellfury?

Go look at a page, pick one, count the number of threads, now see how many are filled with complaining.

Go to the Dark Angles thread, see what percent of that is hate.

That codex is better than fine, and the only problem it has is a lack of 2 assault cannons in a min/maxed squad, plus the 10 man squad and lack of min/maxed las plas squads.

I still agree that Godzilla Nid lists suck Rhino Testes.

In my 19 years of playing GW, this is the most concentrated bunch of whiners I have ever seen.

Since I have been specifically targeted for hate spewing, I feel I have due course to direct a comment at you.

You are an obnoxious troll. There. You have your hateful rude comment you were looking for.

As for the remark of Dakka being "the most concentrated bunch of whiners I have ever seen." Thats an obvious attempt at the pot calling the kettle black, mate.

Now stop getting your panties all bunched up in a wad. This is a game about dollies. We discuss a game about dollies on this board. Thats the purpose of such. How seriously you take any comment made by anonymous posters on the 'net is up to you, but it might be good for your blood pressure to lighten up a bit if it upsets you so much.

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/05/2007 1:37 PM


As an aside, I can tell you that I'm glad that some of the Studio guys got a chance to come out and see how an American tournament works. The generally dismissive attitude of the Studio towards tournament play may stem largely from the...um...extremely vigorous...nature of tournament play in the UK. By their standards, us Yanks were a bunch of good-natured, easy-going blokes who never argued about anything. The fact that a "yellow card" system was largely unnecessary seemed to astonish them. Having had a few friends who flew over to compete in the UK GT, and the acceptable level of behavior there...I can understand their surprise.

What do you mean?

Posted By jfrazell on 04/05/2007 1:41 PM

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/05/2007 1:37 PM


As an aside, I can tell you that I'm glad that some of the Studio guys got a chance to come out and see how an American tournament works. The generally dismissive attitude of the Studio towards tournament play may stem largely from the...um...extremely vigorous...nature of tournament play in the UK. By their standards, us Yanks were a bunch of good-natured, easy-going blokes who never argued about anything. The fact that a "yellow card" system was largely unnecessary seemed to astonish them. Having had a few friends who flew over to compete in the UK GT, and the acceptable level of behavior there...I can understand their surprise.

What do you mean?

Apparently, at the UK GT they have to have staff walking around issuing warnings (aka yellow cards) and kicking people out (red cards) for shady behavior, or some such (this is secondhand, from what one of the GW guys told the guy running the Fantasy side of the house, who I talked to while running the BFG tournament on Sunday).  The GW staffer was pretty amazed that we didn't need to have anything like that set up, and really didn't need it.  We've got rules judges and the like walking around, but aside from monitoring slow play, their job is to react, not to interfere. 

Surveillance society

However, show some bare flesh in America, and you get hit by
the No Shirt No Shoes police.

This, tells me you have no idea what you are talking about.



This reinforces it.



And people complain the lists are all the same now.

Of course, there is always the option that you could do us all a favor and get lost. Your obviously not interested in contributing anything, and even if you were, your obviously not bright enough to have anything useful to contribute.

I hear bolter and chainsword needs a 3 page post about why the grenade launcher is the best assault weapon guard have. And you sound like the perfect man for the job.

In my little pond Nidzilla is as close to over the top as you can get. I shelved my 24 wound MC list because people absolutley hate to play against it. I may pull it out for occasional tourney play but never for friendly.