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Posted By Hellfury on 04/05/2007 5:39 PM

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/05/2007 5:36 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 04/05/2007 4:45 PM

Posted By Ebon on 04/05/2007 4:30 PM

6) On codex re-printings: During the QA that evening, in reference to the Necrons, he said they would no longer make rules changes in the codexes between printings. He also admitted they were wrong to have done so previously.

6) Good. Atleast he has admitted that the inconsistencies of the past were wrong. When you give people something, then take it away, its bound to make people not like the changes. (i.e. Codex DA)
Of course, this wont stop them from continuing to make numerous stealth printings like the chaos dex.


Thanks for the report Ebon.

The really funny part of that isn't what he said, but how the question was brought up.  The beer-drinking Cannucks were in the house...

Heh. Could you expand on that for those of use who werent there?

Well, I'm sure I won't get this word for word, but here's the basic gist:

A voice from the back echoes forward during the Q & A: "In the Necron codex you removed a line of text without telling anyone. Why did you do this?”

Jervis: “Well, yes you see, you're right bout that. Those are the kind of things we did in the past, and um, we're trying to avoid that in the future. We don't want t make changes like that going forward.”

Cannuck (loudly from the back again. Remember, this is a full size conference room, he's in the back, and no one had any trouble hearing him): “But you did!”

Jervis: “Well, umm, yes, you are right. Um, we won't be doing this in the future because it causes these problems.”

Cannuck: “BUT YOU DID!”

Jervis: “Yes, um, it was a mistake and we won't do it again.”

Slight applause ensues

Let me understand, the consumers LIKE the trait system and the codex, but the company thinks its a failure, and will change it. Why does this seem like company suicide?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/05/2007 6:42 PM

Posted By Schepp himself on 04/05/2007 11:32 AM

And honestly, all the crying about Gw killing the Craftworlds with the new codex is a it exaggerated. In reference to the new Chaos codex, I'm almost sure the Legions will be tuned down like in the new Eldar Codex.

WTF? Exaggerated?

The Craftworlds don't exist in the new Codex. There are no sub-lists, additional rules, anything. You simply take lots of Jetbikes and imagine than you're playing Siam Hann, or take Eldrad and a lot of Guardians and pretend that you're playing Ulthwe, or take loads of Dire Avengers as troops and aspect warriors as other choices and then stick your fingers in your ears and scream 'La la la I'm playing Biel Tan!'.

There's nothing exaggerated about it Schepp because it's the 100% truth about that Codex:

Craftworlds. Are. Gone.

They're fluff, and nothing else. There are no rules at all for them, only an altered FOC in the general lists that gives you a loose approximation of what a Craftworld list would be if it still existed.

And if the Legions are 'tuned down', as you put it, to be in line with the Eldar Codex, that also means that they won't exist.

BYE

Well, I do expect the undivided Legions to probably go away.  Most of them can be represented through "background and theme, rather than rules".  One light of hope is that jetbikes became troops to enable Saim Hann.  Likewise something will have to change wit the Chaos codex to allow the cults to exist.

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 11:42 AM
IIf they make ALL of the codexes the same way they made the DA and eldar books, the game will be fine, but that requires a redo of the SM codex sooner than later.

I agree with an above poster that this is a step back toward second edition.

The squads' options where listed on the same page. Numbers where mostly static and the game was fine.

Okay, I was so offended by this that I couldn't bother to look and see if anyone responded.  While the numbers for items in 2nd ed. were largely static (the 1pt boltgun), the insane amount of variety available to even the most basic unit was WAY worse than it is in even the current SM codex.  I mean, power axes, swords, hand flamer, autopistols...  you get to cutomize two figures in each unit now, besides the sergeant.  2nd ed was all ABOUT choice in your squads.  And customizable armies.  No troops, fast attack, heavy support.  They trusted us not to be jackasses and make our own decisions about what to include in our armies.  Now perhaps I've misunderstood, and if so, nothing but my humblest apologies (thought please do elaborate, because I'm confused and want to know what you meant).  But it sounds like you're comparing 2nd ed. codices with the new dark angels and eldar codices, and that's just way off base.

... I can only say that is it no longer a rumor... the nid zilla list is a nightmare. PERIOD. No one can deal with 24+ wounds at T6... I found out first hand last weekend at adepticon. Two games worth was plenty to for me to believe in the power of the gun weilding bugs.

The only thing worse is still the slaneshy deamonette bombing... those ladies  know how to kill stuff real good! I think that would be worth a watch... toss the Zillas in a 7 game round robin tourney against a siren deamon bomb list, shake season and ready to serve!!!

So why exactly do you have to have a list telling you exactly what you need to buy to be a certain Craftworld anyway? How did we ever make do before?

Odd that the guy I play at the shop fields lots of bikes and skimmers and calls it Saim-Hann....

It's facinating that moderation is considered extremism.

Really... it's almost like doublethink.

And Craftworlds only existed as their own lists for a single codex. And it was a kinda crappy sub dex with little or no background material in it.

I much prefered my 2nd Edition eldar army when Shuricats were AP Stormbolters and Pop Up Attacks were king.

Of course I still think my 20 man cyclone terminator squad of wolfguard armed with assault cannons and led by Ragnar Blackmane on Combat Drugs and wearing terminator armour should still be legal. That would be boss.

/irony off

Posted By dienekes96 on 04/05/2007 5:05 PM
While I readily admit Slave was trolling, watching Dakkaites make fun of other forums which provide equally valuable services to hobbyists is a bit disconcerting, and frankly pathetic. The modeling forums at B&C are significantly better than those here (and they used to be unbelievable here). Warseer gets rumors DAYS before Dakka, usually. Dakkaites are a variety of personalities, as Russ states, but the balance of a few years ago is somewhat lost. And I see plenty of comments referring to Dakka as a monolithic entity with brilliant "tactical" acumen from those making fun of Slave than Slave himself, so he is not the only one guilty of lumping Dakka into one mindset.

Long story short, Dakka still provides value to the hobbyist, but I certainly see a groupthink flavor to many of the posts. Often, it's an echo chamber in here.

Another note, I can't comment on the validity of the Nidzilla list, but obviously one reason for it's tourney popularity is the number of models to paint So that plays into it as well.

Flame away,
Chuck

Don't admit that I was trolling, I was not trolling; I wasn't trying to bait anyone into an argument, I wasn't going off topic,  Iwasn't coming into a thread for the sole purpose of derailing it.

I was getting into the discussion.  People on this board swear on holy ground that the Godzilla nid list is the end all army list for nids.  People call it cheesy and nigh impossible to beat.  I find it boring, and terrible easy to smash.

People here do whine about any and everything GW does, and most of the threads here over the winter especially, where whine threds.

Hellfury does complain a lot, and I am not the first person to say this about him.  This doesn't mean I wouldn't buy him beers if I ever met him, I most certainly would, but I still think he is a tool on these boards.

This whole balance argument was the reason I got involved in this discussion.

Just because Dakka doesn't think the DA list is competitive is reason enough to be called slowed, stupid, moronic or any other colorful language if you disagree with the majority opinion here.

The DA list is pretty damn cool.  That master of the Ravenwing dude is awesome.  Mixed forces have been doing extremely well around where I live.

Godzilla nids get smashed.  Only seen that garbage list win one time.  Every other time, it gets devastated.  All 4 players who attempt it.

Luckily for us, we have very few marine players.  Our groups are filled with tau, necrons, IG, SoB, WH, DH, Nids, and mostly orks and eldar.

I don't like in the same GW world that Dakkaites seem to.  I don't lose to godzilla nids, and DA players kick a lot of butt around here.

If they make the newest codexes like the DA list, we should all be so lucky, as its chocked full of useful troop choices.

Posted By Ebon on 04/05/2007 6:54 PM

Well, I'm sure I won't get this word for word, but here's the basic gist:

A voice from the back echoes forward during the Q & A: "In the Necron codex you removed a line of text without telling anyone. Why did you do this?”

Jervis: “Well, yes you see, you're right bout that. Those are the kind of things we did in the past, and um, we're trying to avoid that in the future. We don't want t make changes like that going forward.”

Cannuck (loudly from the back again. Remember, this is a full size conference room, he's in the back, and no one had any trouble hearing him): “But you did!”

Jervis: “Well, umm, yes, you are right. Um, we won't be doing this in the future because it causes these problems.”

Cannuck: “BUT YOU DID!”

Jervis: “Yes, um, it was a mistake and we won't do it again.”

Slight applause ensues

That's pretty much it, although the exchange went back and forth a few more times...and they easily matched Jervis's amplified volume.  And we were all a bit short on sleep by that time, so it was hillarious...especially the "deer in the headlights" look on Jervis's face. 

The Cannucks in question were DD1's final opponents, and we were the ones who pointed a fairly significant change out to them...that they couldn't move the monolith, port through, then march forward.  Upon reading through their codexes,  they discovered that one of them had a new printing, and were less than amused...especially since they were expecting to move 40 warriors up and rapid-fire the heck out of our Nids.

Boring yes. Terribly easy to Smash? Either your local nid players are tactical morons, you're playing with next to no terrain, or you're nid players are running assault Godzillas...because nidzilla done properly (i.e. shooty) is well-nigh unstoppable unless a list is designed to take out 'zillas. How exactly did your 4 nids players try to do the Godzilla? I think there's a disconnect here.



Hey, I actually like the new DA codex. But the simple fact is that point for point, a C:SM force is superior to a DA force with the possible exception of the Ravening and Sammael. And it will be until C:SM is revised.

Posted By Ozymandias on 04/05/2007 3:50 PM
This thread actually got me to come out of Lurkdom.

But, IntoTheRain, have you actually played a game with DA?  Do you even know who the DA are?  Of course they have named characters, they are one of the 3 Named Chapters with their own codex.  If you don't want a named character, play a DA Successor and then you get to make up your own name and fluff.  It like saying but I want my Ultramarines to be led by Chapter Master Joe and be pink instead of blue.  That's fine, but they ain't Ultras anymore.

EDIT: Took out some remarks to IntoTheRain, this is my first thread, want to be nice...


Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well then welcome out of the darkness and into posting. 

First, I have no idea what your previous remarks are, but you should know that I probably wouldn't have cared. (I'm assuming you went through the angry impulse post mode into fear of backlash edit mode)

As for your comments, I have no idea what your asking.  DA history spans milennia.  How many different leaders do you think they had during that time?  Upwards of the thousands would be my guess.  So why is it we are forced into a few select characters when designing our armies?  I'm all for special characters, but not as the only option availiable.  Especially since most players like writing a history for their commander, and where hes leading his army too, or even why he chose to take along the units he did. (THIS is fluff, you don't have to write the story of an entire successor chapter to set up a backround for your army/commander)

And yes, I have managed to get a few games in against DA. (Getting someone in my group to play them is a chore however)

Centurion, just smile and nod at him and maybe he will go away.

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/05/2007 8:00 PM

Hey, I actually like the new DA codex. But the simple fact is that point for point, a C:SM force is superior to a DA force with the possible exception of the Ravening and Sammael. And it will be until C:SM is revised.

Yeah, thats for sure.  DA list is weaker than the C:SM list.  Because of this, if they wanna redo the chaos one, plus release an ork one, if they don't redo the C;SM list pronto, they will surely get just what they want, massive amounts of kids playing marines, and nothing else.

Posted By Slave on 04/05/2007 7:39 PM

Hellfury does complain a lot, and I am not the first person to say this about him.  This doesn't mean I wouldn't buy him beers if I ever met him, I most certainly would, but I still think he is a tool on these boards.

I am not certain why I am being singled out for your derision, but all things considered equal, you seem to be getting much worse remarks to your posts than I ever have.

Anyways, internet forums breed contempt through familiarity, so I can almost understand why you might direct comments in the way you do. But in my defense, I am not abrasive for the sake of being abrasive, I care about my passions, and voice my critique when it is deserved. Sadly, GW has proven it deserves it. Even good 'ol Kirby has admitted that GW has somehow forgotten the skills to run the business (paraphrasing).
Likewise though, just because something is said on a board, does not mean it has to roll over into real life. Beers ahoy! Too bad I dont drink that much anymore...

But I will concede to your point, and will also agree. I do in fact complain about the working of GW more frequently than I should or would like to admit. I wont apologize for it, but I will agree.

I have been thinking abit about this whole Plan that Jervis has in store. If he is infact being earnest, then I welcome the changes with wide open arms.

I really hope GW as a whole follows through with this. Because if they dont, I can say without a doubt that it will be the last time GW abuses loyalty amongst this veteran customer. So GW starts from a clean slate with me.

By the way David Dresch, I really like the work you did with your emperors children. Great work with that purple...
If you could post as eloquently as you paint, then you'd be in business.

I think we can find a way to change the argument away from "Balance vs. Diversity". The way I'd recommend it is to have our lists be balanced for tournament play, and revive the fan-driven community for building new and unique units. If I want to make Tau on jetbikes, the rules shouldn't have to give me that officially, but if I can come up with a fair and balanced version that people don't mind people playing against, then there's no reason I can't have my diversity in friendlies and still have a balanced army for tournaments. Isn't that basically the entire premise Forgeworld runs on?

The problem at the moment in my opinion is that the cost of the minis is so high that it discourages experimentation and freer modelling. Spending $50US for 5 guys is bad enough, but to spend at least that much on a converted squad which your opponent may veto off the table? That's just not going to happen for most of us. If GW gives us a stable, balanced ruleset along with lower prices for figures, then we might start seeing the friendly-match community resurge and reclaim some of the creativity in this hobby that really, should be our territory to begin with.

So, just out of idlest curiousity, would people be interested in a codex that divided large option filled lists and more structured tournament legal lists?  Assuming both had been playtested, I would have no problem - not being a tournament player - with having my army list lack tournament viablity in exchange for some of the awesome fluff using wackiness I currently apply to army construction.

Also, I think it's really interesting how the wargaming community, a niche market by all accounts, is differentiating so dramatically now as the market grows.  Differences in opinion on prepainted versus hobby miniatures, the price/value debates, skirmish versus battle scale, scifi versus fantasy, brand loyalty....  It's really quite amazing considering that only a few years ago our option didn't extend much beyond Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000.

Not to belittle the other long-time miniature wargames, but certainly GW did not have the same competition in the market in the 90s that it does now.  The company that closely examines how to best staisfy the most gamers is going to make a killing, because - at this point - the wargames miniatures market available must be nearing several billion dollars.  Think, worldwide, how much money must be spent on miniatures per year.  This total market is very diverse right now, but the right business decisions can consolidate a large chunk in the hands of one manufacturer.

I have a question: If the codices are supposed to be balanced, why did they make DA much less powerful? Whether it is a well-written codex, it's clear that pretty much any army build you can make with CA, you can make with C:SM, for substantially fewer points. Admittedly, certain builds of C:SM are more powerful than average (i.e., unbalanced), but many of those that aren't particularly powerful still got nerfed for CA. Yes, if C:SM Redux ends up at CA level, they'll be balanced. But then neither one of them will be balanced against, say, 'Nids, Chaos, Eldar, or Tau. Or, for that matter, Guard, 'Crons, or SoB. Not to mention, their time between revisions is on the order of a few to several years. This is going to take bloody forever to fix. Sure, if they get the revision time down to, say, two years, it could work, but I shudder to think of what that will do to the already desultory playtesting. Moreover, four of the five generally considered tournament beating codices are the most recent! So presumably at least Eldar, 'Nids, and Tau are not anywhere near getting revised...again. If they are, I expect that the Ork players are going to march on GW HQ and sack it.

Any power level for any given codex can be balanced. That is to say, the power of a codex is irrelevant to balance. All that matters is the relative power level. So, given this, would it not have been easier to put the DA in line with the other codices, instead of nearer the bottom? Of course, it would have been much better to not have created this problem in the first place by not making the last, oh, four codices so relatively powerful.

And what the heck is wrong with doctrines and traits? Sure, the doctrine system gives you enough rope to hang you and the local high school marching band with, but that's pretty much a problem of most of the doctrines being actively bad, not of the system itself. Warrior Weapons didn't have to be crap. I mean, yeah, making Guard into CC death might be beyond the scope of the codex, but where exactly do all these brilliant H2H SMurfs come from?

I guess the real problem is that there is a perceived opposition between "fluff" and "effectiveness". As if the armies in the fluff don't try to win. Moreover, the fluff and the rules are written by the same darn people! If they want us to take 10-man squads, why not make them mechanically superior? If Carapace-Armored and Cyber-Enhanced Guard are supposed to be so elite, why do they suck so hard? Why do Stormtroopers cost like Battle Sisters, since the latter are so much better and you can take them in your mostly empty troop slots to boot?

Posted By carmachu on 04/05/2007 7:05 PM

Finally, he also commented that the SM codex was considered a failure within the company because as the codex most commonly purchased by new players, it fails to properly introduce them into the hobby (as it doesn't have the weapon diagrams like the new DA codex does). That gives GW a reason to 'fast track' a new version of the codex into production. When and if this new SM codex is released Jervis said that it will likely incorporate many of the new concepts found within the DA codex.

Let me understand, the consumers LIKE the trait system and the codex, but the company thinks its a failure, and will change it. Why does this seem like company suicide?

Quoted for truthiness. The only problem with the marines codex (other than the plethora of A cannons and cheap drop pods) are that there aren’t ENOUGH Traits. There’s no reason to dumb down the marine codex.

Posted By Mitsugi242 on 04/06/2007 3:18 AM
I have a question: If the codices are supposed to be balanced, why did they make DA much less powerful? Whether it is a well-written codex, it's clear that pretty much any army build you can make with CA, you can make with C:SM, for substantially fewer points.

Posted By Toreador on 04/05/2007 7:32 PM
So why exactly do you have to have a list telling you exactly what you need to buy to be a certain Craftworld anyway? How did we ever make do before?

Odd that the guy I play at the shop fields lots of bikes and skimmers and calls it Saim-Hann....

consider the reaction tothe DA codex, no wonder they dont want fans knowing whats next.....

The problem with losing sub lists is that there is no longer any reason to actually play that style anymore. The sub lists gave advantages for playing lists a certain way, since they no longer get an advantage for playing fluffy there is no point in playing a fluffy list. Altioc is a good example. It rewarded you for fighting the way the craftworld does, which the current dex doesn't do.

Its also been stated that reducing to 3 months means players who are buying new armies won't hold off. For example, I'm a new player or someone suddenly interested in a chaos list, four months before a new codex dex comes out. If there's a 6 month window then there is a good chance they won't buy the soon to be old dex and army (and we would likely counsel that). If the window is 3 months then no one knows the new dex is coming out and off to the store he goes.

Posted By IntoTheRain on 04/06/2007 6:28 AM
The problem with losing sub lists is that there is no longer any reason to actually play that style anymore. The sub lists gave advantages for playing lists a certain way, since they no longer get an advantage for playing fluffy there is no point in playing a fluffy list. Altioc is a good example. It rewarded you for fighting the way the craftworld does, which the current dex doesn't do.

Not to mention some of these are entirely different lists that are not replicable. LATD and kroot mercs come screaming to mind.

That one, jfrazell, is a bloody good point.

Your comment now makes me wonder if the release of new Blood Angels rules in the Canadian White Dwarf will be to test the waters for the next Codex: BA release. Or to weed out unbalanced rules and abilities.

There are now cross rumors that the BA release is just the re-release of some of their characters, not a minidex.  Until someone pops up with a "I done seen it" then I'd take anything BA related with a grain of salt.

Thank you for the kind words WhiteDragon, but most of what I do really is just 'keep the lights on'.  It's the people who take the time to post here that make Dakka what it is.

Which is why I get frustrated when someone tries to paint our large, diverse community with a broad brush.  This very thread has many posts that both like and don't like the DA codex, like and don't like GW's direction, etc.

I think what confuses folks is that often they spend time on smaller boards with many like-minded individuals, so when they occasionally step out into a larger world they are stunned that there are people that actually disagree with them. 

Your comment does inspire me with a new tagline for Dakka.

Dakka: We don't let our trolls frenzy....much.

(a little Hordes humor for ya there)

[We now return you to your regularly schedule topic, already in progress]

Posted By scipio.au on 04/06/2007 6:33 AM
That one, jfrazell, is a bloody good point.

You get it now Scipio?

The Lost & the Damned army I have took me a long time to put together (and I mean that in a literal sense). It is also the army I've had the most fun with, and, to me, is what the GW hobby is about.

They release this great new army that has a powerful list and a great background to it. Not only that, but it allows me to use my existing Guard and Chaos armies together, and, best of all, has a new unit that I went out and bought the parts for 90 of them (mutants), which I then got to put together in whatever ways I could imagine. I have over 90 mutants and they are all unique models. Despite the fact that they're make up of Orks, Crapachans, Zombies and Marauders, I've never had more fun putting together GW models. I even used the time to build some of them for a Necromunda Scavvie gang I wanted.

And it's all because of this cool, broad, flexible, flavourful and powerful sub-list.

For that to be shoehorned into 'Take special character X and you can take Elites Choice Y as Troops' just sickens me.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/06/2007 7:30 AM


For that to be shoehorned into 'Take special character X and you can take Elites Choice Y as Troops' just sickens me.

Except, at least for the cult armies, that's all they are now anyway.  The simple rule I posted above duplicates exactly both the Thousand Sons and Word Eaters army lists, and is only missing one rule for Deathguard and Emperor's Children.

LatD, however, is an entirely separate list, and I hope it makes the list of "officially supported" as well...

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/06/2007 7:30 AM

Posted By scipio.au on 04/06/2007 6:33 AM
That one, jfrazell, is a bloody good point.

The Lost & the Damned army I have took me a long time to put together (and I mean that in a literal sense). It is also the army I've had the most fun with, and, to me, is what the GW hobby is about.

They release this great new army that has a powerful list and a great background to it. Not only that, but it allows me to use my existing Guard and Chaos armies together, and, best of all, has a new unit that I went out and bought the parts for 90 of them (mutants), which I then got to put together in whatever ways I could imagine. I have over 90 mutants and they are all unique models. Despite the fact that they're make up of Orks, Crapachans, Zombies and Marauders, I've never had more fun putting together GW models. I even used the time to build some of them for a Necromunda Scavvie gang I wanted.

And it's all because of this cool, broad, flexible, flavourful and powerful sub-list.

For that to be shoehorned into 'Take special character X and you can take Elites Choice Y as Troops' just sickens me.

BYE

Its the LATD that kept me interested in 40K until recently. It took me two years to get my own LATD list together (ever try to cut the heads off 20 bloodletters...tip....don't!!!). Never taken it to a tournament (I don't want to get punded multiple times in a row).  I don't mind if these lists are not GT permitted. But new ideas, new lists, new variants need to come out. Else why would an existing player buy new minis? Once I have an initial list why would I buy anothermini for it unless there is something special. Without new CA lists or options (Ahriman's Chosen for 1K Sons for example) why would I even think GW realizes there is a 1K list out there?

Would anyone who plays orks think GW noticed them for years? If it were not for the sub lists they would have had no attention for nearly a decade.  Ferals, clan rules, speed freaks, these are what kept Ork players going. Look at the DE, their attention has been minimal, and it is reflected in their sales. Do I really think GW is going to suddenly start focusing on DE? (no).  If I am an eldar player does this now mean that I'm forgotten by GW until the next edition?

Is GW becoming a fire and forget shop? 

 

 

 

 

John Frazell

You're right on, brother.  It's all about the Benjamins and the bottom line.  I wouldn't be suprised to see a SM redux codex before the likes of the Orks or even a DE codex.  The new SM would be a gaurenteed best-seller; and since they're going to this new DA-esque fromat, it would probably make sense to bring up the 'core' army codecies (I won't venture to say what those are, hopefully one of them is Orks) to that standard before updating the 'exotic' codicies.

Keep in mind kiddos, GW is in the selling miniatures market.  All the rules and stuff is secondary.  That is why you're seeing the 'dumbing-down' of the rules and codecies, to get little Johnny and his parents' disposable income in the front door of the Hobby Centers.