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The amount of firepower that a proper DA army can summon onto a single MC is outrageous, especially with lucky rending rolls. Even without, you'll at least get a couple rends. Add that to plasma gun, heavy bolter, melta gun, bolter, and lascannon fire, and you have one very, very dead MC.

In my experience against Zilla Nids (against 2 different players, 5 games, and witnessing many other games played by others) I can tell you that, if you can "dance" around the nids, they lose. If you can control when and where assaults happen (which is pretty easy when the big scary stuff moves 6" a turn), you win. If the list has two HT with wings, things get challenging. But if they are heavy on HT, they won't have 6 carni (from what I've seen). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 2x HT 6x Carni list. So at that point it becomes a tactical game, because both forces are evenly matched.

Plenty of games are won by the roll of first turn. Sometimes, you just can't minimize it's impact. Declaring that a Zilla player was a terrible general because he lost the dice off for first turn means nothing. At worst, it means that the two armies were evenly matched, and the DA player knew his s**t, because he obviously took an educated gamble with his scout move.

Tau-Cent's argument can be rephrased as "any player who makes a mistake with Zilla nids is a horrible general. Zilla nids win every single time if the general makes no mistakes."

What player do you know that never makes a single error? Furthermore, I saw a Zilla nid list lose horrendously to a thousand sons cult, of all things! I witnessed the game, and the 'Nid player made one mistake (which was really only a mistake because of a "1" on his fleet roll), and the dice were very forgiving to the TS player.

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/20/2007 12:44 PM
The amount of firepower that a proper DA army can summon onto a single MC is outrageous, especially with lucky rending rolls. Even without, you'll at least get a couple rends. Add that to plasma gun, heavy bolter, melta gun, bolter, and lascannon fire, and you have one very, very dead MC.

And a codex Marine force can summon quite a bit more.

If the list has two HT with wings, things get challenging.

Right there proves you have no idea what you're talking about.  If the list has two Hive Tyrants with wings, it is downright illegal.

But if they are heavy on HT, they won't have 6 carni (from what I've seen). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 2x HT 6x Carni list. So at that point it becomes a tactical game, because both forces are evenly matched.

I use 2 HT and 5 Carnis.  I can't imagine any DA list that would threaten it.

Plenty of games are won by the roll of first turn. Sometimes, you just can't minimize it's impact. Declaring that a Zilla player was a terrible general because he lost the dice off for first turn means nothing. At worst, it means that the two armies were evenly matched, and the DA player knew his s**t, because he obviously took an educated gamble with his scout move.

He got downright lucky.  And he wasn't a terrible general because he lost the dice-off.  He's a terrible general because he didn't screen his carnis against a first turn assault / Have decent counter-assault.

Out of curiosity, what were the lists (On both sides) in the fight you're talking about?

So the guy uses an example of an obvious tactical error in which the nid player neglated to screen his shooty carnifex from scouting bikers and a 50/50 dice roll as his primary example of how to beat Godzilla nids with DA and you don't want anyone to point out the obvious?

I think you just confirmed that you have never played against a truly well build Godzilla nid army. You are playing against a balanced/hybrid Nid army at best.

When you play against a 2 HT (1 winged), 5 Carnifex , 2-3 Zonethorpe army backed up by packs of Genestealers then get back to me. Let me know how Ravenwing fairs against 8 to 14 twin linked Devourers. I am going to assume you know that the stats and rules are for Devourers.

You are correct that your army will probably have enough firepower to down 1 Carnifex. But on the nid players turn he will stun all your vehicles and destroy several squads. He will probably also get a couple of torrent of fire results to eliminate heavy and special weapons from any 5 man combat squads you may have. The game will go all down hill from there as he cuts off any maneuvering room he you may have had. If you try and assault him the Genestealers will eat you alive or swarms of cheap fearless Guants will lock you in combat for the rest of the game.

How about this. Since we are detemining what could beat a zilla list lets assume the nids go second.

If we can come up with a situation where they are severly disadvantaged at that point we can say they can be beaten.
They deploy forward (cause most guns are short range) and screen their monsters with gaunts/stealers in a tight clump.
So, scout bikers forward. First turn move bikers up to assult and clear out enough of the screen to assult through with 6+speeders/HBpreds.
Assult the carnies who cant compete with two melta shots followed by fist attacks.
Turn 1 result - two carnies dead. Half or more (likely more) of the stealers or gaunts dead. 18 bikes consolidate into more carnies.

From that point the zilla list will have a very hard time recovering no matter how good they are. First turn just crippled them.
Sure if they got first they would have shot the bikers up fairly well (assuming there wasnt a sweetly placed peice of terrain to hide behind) but you cant say they are godlike because they win if they get to go first.

I have played the zilla list a few times now and the only reason I lost the one game I did (I play tau) was because of a 1.5 by 1.5 ft peice of size 2 rubble the guy could hide eveything behind. If that one peice of terrain wasnt there I would have wiped him easy. The other times I just danced arround and shot him from range untill he died.

god I love DA players

Posted By skyth on 04/20/2007 12:58 PM

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/20/2007 12:44 PM
The amount of firepower that a proper DA army can summon onto a single MC is outrageous, especially with lucky rending rolls. Even without, you'll at least get a couple rends. Add that to plasma gun, heavy bolter, melta gun, bolter, and lascannon fire, and you have one very, very dead MC.

And a codex Marine force can summon quite a bit more.

Depends entirely on the list and tactics used. A "gunline" marine army has no chance against 'Zilla. A more mobile army with plenty of AC, and heavy bolters has an amount of firepower on-par with DA.

If the list has two HT with wings, things get challenging.

Right there proves you have no idea what you're talking about.  If the list has two Hive Tyrants with wings, it is downright illegal.

Fair enough. I don't know the nid codex perfectly, I just assumed it was legal, albeit I've never played against it. Gee, I wonder why...

But if they are heavy on HT, they won't have 6 carni (from what I've seen). In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a 2x HT 6x Carni list. So at that point it becomes a tactical game, because both forces are evenly matched.

I use 2 HT and 5 Carnis.  I can't imagine any DA list that would threaten it.

I'm pretty sure DA with a strong ravenwing element could give you a very good challenge. You can't always keep your MCs castled, and you can't always hide your genestealers from the six tornadoes running around.

Plenty of games are won by the roll of first turn. Sometimes, you just can't minimize it's impact. Declaring that a Zilla player was a terrible general because he lost the dice off for first turn means nothing. At worst, it means that the two armies were evenly matched, and the DA player knew his s**t, because he obviously took an educated gamble with his scout move.

He got downright lucky.  And he wasn't a terrible general because he lost the dice-off.  He's a terrible general because he didn't screen his carnis against a first turn assault / Have decent counter-assault.

Out of curiosity, what were the lists (On both sides) in the fight you're talking about?

Once again, you don't know all the details. His counter-assault could've gotten caught in terrain. He could've had more important things to worry about than his isolated units. I'm even assuming they're isolated. Saying that either person was a terrible general is a rather moot point.

Posted By cypher on 04/20/2007 1:30 PM
How about this. Since we are detemining what could beat a zilla list lets assume the nids go second.

If we can come up with a situation where they are severly disadvantaged at that point we can say they can be beaten.
They deploy forward (cause most guns are short range) and screen their monsters with gaunts/stealers in a tight clump.
So, scout bikers forward. First turn move bikers up to assult and clear out enough of the screen to assult through with 6+speeders/HBpreds.
Assult the carnies who cant compete with two melta shots followed by fist attacks.
Turn 1 result - two carnies dead. Half or more (likely more) of the stealers or gaunts dead. 18 bikes consolidate into more carnies.

From that point the zilla list will have a very hard time recovering no matter how good they are. First turn just crippled them.
Sure if they got first they would have shot the bikers up fairly well (assuming there wasnt a sweetly placed peice of terrain to hide behind) but you cant say they are godlike because they win if they get to go first.

I have played the zilla list a few times now and the only reason I lost the one game I did (I play tau) was because of a 1.5 by 1.5 ft peice of size 2 rubble the guy could hide eveything behind. If that one peice of terrain wasnt there I would have wiped him easy. The other times I just danced arround and shot him from range untill he died.

Um...I guess I'm dumb, because I'm not seeing this.  In a true godzilla list, you've got a massive wall of carnifexes and tyrants walking in FRONT of the genestealers.  Your LOS is blocked, more or less whatever you do on turn 1...all you're doing is shooting at T6 monstrous creatures with 3+ or 2+ saves.  So you kill 2 elite carnifexes...then you consolidate into another 2.  The next turn, the genestealers countercharge, wipe out your bikes. 

I've seen people lose with zilla nids.  I've only seen godzilla nid armies go down easily twice.  Once was against an IW army with 6 5-man las/plas squads, 3 5-man 4ML havocs, and 6 Oblits.  The other time was against my Grey Knights. 

Hahaha! :mad:

The only massacre I've gotten against 'Nids was with my Grey Knights.

They do seem to have an amusing penchant for K.O.'ing the big 'Nids.

If there was ever a single reason why DA can't handle competitive NidZilla lists it's because of one rule: Torrent of Fire.

Combat Squads, only one heavy weapon in Terminator Squads, and low model count Bike Squadrons all create a fatal flaw in DA - the inability to protect heavy weapons or powerfists.  When your average round of shooting from a single Dakkafex results in 6 wounds, every time a Dakkafex fires on a DA combat squad there will be a Torrent of Fire.  Any NidZilla player with moderate skill can take the bite out of every unit in DA through Torrent of Fire. 

Every DA player here is counting on mobility, but the sad fact is that unless you have a range greater than 24", mobility means nothing against NidZilla because that is the threat range of the most under-pointed shooting unit in the game.  So after you've executed your amazing high mobility tactic <sarcasm>, the next turn after the NidZilla return fire you will only have bolters left to fight back with.

 

Last guy I faced was in a tourny. His list had four fex dakka what ever and two tyrants, winged and foot slogger. Next was a  ton of hormies. He won both his games before me as I did as well. I guess just seeing 82 marines on the board is something that you dont see everyday. He looked and his jaw dropped and said crap, said that is something I had never faced before.

He wouldn't even take his Tyrants out of cover and or his Fex. He keep moving everything in cover and I blasted it to death with my (Marine gun line). In the end he had me in hth with his flyer and dropped two marines. The game ended with his last fex being finished off with one wound left via shooting and vet power first. His Tyrant had all his wounds, but it was the end of the game and it was the last thing on my list.

 

If you talk about this wall you make with your nids. I have seen all types of walls, 2nd on and have not lost to nids yet. Over all, I would have to say 2nd ed with over 120 model count was the hardest for me to fight. Mainly because of the way marines had to be played back then.

 

If you live in the DFW are in Texas, maybe we can meet up.

 

What would be great is to turn this into some type of event. Nids players and DA players post there Win/Loss games vs each other. Will total that up in month or something like that for the best of the best SHOW DOWN!

 

If I do change to DA, will talk more later on tonight ,, back to work...

Too far for me....but no offense to you or your opponent...but it sounds to me like you beat him, you didn't beat his army.  With a Godzilla army you have to be aggressive. 

And including hormagaunts just seems like a silly thing to do. 

 Either going to have a four or a five save. So, either the bolter and or Heavy bolter will kill the gens. Add to that you will have less of them as well, being that hormies are cheaper in points. If you have the wall, well once one or two drop. That in turn is going to open your back door and allow me to clean out your back field.

 

Lets just look at this, when you do charge what will you get for the charge. Five man unit that is worth 75 to 116 points max. Your going to kill that five man unit with ease. I dont mind five men being lost to the cause because in return I am going to kill what ever just assault that unit with everything I have or what I want to use.

 

No biggy thou, maybe one day will be able to see who

I hate it when this happens to a zilla nid tactic thread. People are getting along fine, trying to post tactics that may or may not work. Then some guy who talks a pretty good game gets on and is like "ZOMG!! ZILLAZ RULEZ!" And explains every last possible reason why the list is damn near impossible to beat. Which is beyond lame. I don't think the point of these threads is to explain how the zilla's can kill everything. I also hate how whenever a zilla list loses its because of "user error" which if you ask me, when games are highly competitive everyone loses to user error or luck.

Tau-Cent your pompous explanation of the zilla nids is wrote and has been said before in other threads. No one else wants to hear about how no matter what a zilla nids list will on turn one destroy or stun all my tanks, ToF my heavies and all that crap.

There is a way to beat these guys and quite frankly its not the same for each army, it requires a different strat depending on terrain, who goes first, army composition so forth. I've seen Blood Angels get in there (assault) and rip a zilla nid list to pieces. But that strategy doesn't work for everyone, so the strategy has to change from game to game.

I'm thinking for when I go against 'nidzillas,I'm just gonna throw out Belial,2 Deathwing squads with AC's,an allied Grey Knight Grand-master with a 9-man retinue,and another GK termie squad with Incinerator. Throw a little Holocaust action on the GK's in case a horde of 'stealer/gaunts gets in on them with some extra points. Screw Deepstriking them too. I'm going to line those bad boys up and walk them in Civil War regiment style. Gun down the gaunts/stealers in the neutral zone while walking accross with a couple of Assault Cannons and about 25 stormbolters.

Silly,yeah. But hell,'nidzillas are unbeatable,so there's no real point in putting any real effort into the game,right? After all,if you lose,you've got ready made excuse in that 'zilla's are unbeatable,but if you win,you don't really get any bragging rights because the other guy is an incompetant general and him screwing up was the only reason you won. The only point in playing it out is to amuse yourself by creating looks of worry and confusion on your opponent's face. You know,the look of concern when he watches plunk out that G-M and 9 GK termies,watching him freak every time one of his gunfex's blows a shrouding roll on the GK's,listening to him complain that your DA army has more GK models in it than DA ones,then shooting back by asking why his 1500 point Tyranid army only has,like,40 models in it. If he gets distracted for a sec,grab some of his dice and use them to make some armor saves to really torque him off,then listen to him whine that you sucked all the luck out of them later on.

Look, I want to make one correction. Most of the people I encounter talking about how 'awesome' and 'unbeatable' a Nidzilla list is, are *not* tyranid players**. Most of them play something else, and have not been able to figure out how to beat them. There stories usually are about playing at 1500-1850, but start mentioning about 2300 pts worth of models. (But he has 8 MC and 3 Zoan, and gaunts, and stealers, and raveners and, and, and....) Most of the Nid players I talk with know the inherrent limitations of the Nidzilla army and feel pretty confident in how to counter it. I could be wrong, but I doubt Tau-Cent is a Nid player**.

**One caveat. The recent flood of BBS comments and tourney wins have lead a number of people to jump on the Nidzilla bandwagon and buy a bunch of TMC's figuring they are unbeatable. They may also be yelling 'ZOMG ZILLA RULEZ!'


edit: Heck,look at this thread. Within a few posts of each other you have one saying "The Nid general was in idiot, a good zilla army will have units out front. (next) The Nid general was an idiot, a good zilla army will have the units behind the TMC's for cover."  IOW "A good zilla army will do whatever it was that I was unable to figure out last time I got my butt handed to me"

Actually, I screen in front and back.

I run 42 gaunts currently and 16 stealers. The gaunts screen in front. They are cannon fodder. The stealers are my counter-assault, hidden from fire/assault.

Let's look at the math here. Ravenwing squad is 265 with 6 guys, 2 meltas, and a fist.

Dakkafex is 113 points.  8 stealers are 160. 

Dakkafex sits in 4+ cover. Ravenwing shoots....95 wounds. (I'm assuming Ravenwing has frags for free here) Ravenwing assaults...Carni kills .83 ravenwing. Normal guys do .37 wounds. Fist does 1.67 wounds for a total of 2.62 wounds done.

Stealers counter-assault. Rending kills 4 bikes. 1.33 more kiled by the normal attacks. Bike Squad wiped out. Carni alive with 1.38 wounds. Non-scoring, but fully functional.. This is a roughly equivalent number of points.

If the dakkafex had not been in cover, it would have taken .56 more wounds from the shooting. Still would have been alive.

I tend to concur with coredump and skyth.

It's not that the list is unbeatable. It's that the list is one of the toughest all-round contenders in the game right now. Given that DA have very pricey, usually small units, and that a DA list packs less AP 2 or 3 firepower than any similarly composed vanilla list, it's not hard to see that it's going to be an uphill struggle for DA.

Remember, when discussing shooting a nidzilla list, that it will be hugging cover as much as possible. Everything in the army has Move Through Cover, and half or more of it can ALSO re-roll Difficult terrain. The big guys do most of their killing in the shooting phase, and the little guys are there mostly to protect them from HtH, so they have no reason not to make best use of cover. There is very little tougher to dislodge in this game than a couple of big bugs in a 4+ save ruin, with a pack or two of Genestealers hidden behind them.

I don't play them either, but at this point they're one of the main things I have to account for in the metagame, and they're one of the reasons I'm not entirely psyched about my shiny new DA codex.

I absolutely understand, I'm not saying they aren't a good list, what I DO NOT enjoy is being told how whenever there is a tactic someone brings along, hey there is this math, there's this tactic, there are smarter generals, etc. to explain why nidzillas are going to WTFBBQPwnz my DA list. I think that DA's have an unprecedented number of AP1 weapons, namely melta guns, that other armies probably could bring, but generally dont. OUr bike squads have a lot of them, our troops definitely have a whole lot, and our terminators are way more versatile (and fearless) than other squads.

The tactic I ALWAYS seen nidz use is loadouts of cover to grant their generally lame armor save units some good armor cover. This is where the new whirlwind for DA's in my opinion, can really shine. I realize its not great against huge bugs but for the little bugs that are providing screen cover and all that crap, incendiary castellan's seem like the perfect choice.

I totally agree that the nid zilla list is a generally really strong army, but that doesn't make them unbeatable, and it certaintly doesn't mean that when a nid zilla list loses its because of the general being an idiot. I think we need to give more credence to lists that can beat nid zilla, and also realize that there is no universal standard to fighting nid zillas, generally because the tactic changes from army to army (even from chapter to chapter in the SM case.)

SIDE NOTE EDIT:
Skyth do you run your stealers with or without carapace armor updates? and I am really unfamiliar with the new tyrannid list (Not really all that new anymore) since I haven't been playing for 4 months.   What is in the dakkafex armor and toughness stat line?

The standard Whirlwind missles will work fine against a 'nidzilla list with the 'stealers hiding in the back.  People tend to forget that on barrage weapons,you need intervening terrain from the center hole of the template to the model in order to claim a cover save.  So hiding the 'stealers behind the MC's doesn't give the 'stealers a cover save against barrage weapons.  A standard Whirlwind can still take a big chunk out of that unit,and a Landspeeder Tornado or two should be enough to pick up most of the scraps. 

The Ravenwing 'speeders and bike units' Scout move with a 24" Turbo-Boost combined with their 1st turn move will let those units cover 36" before they shoot.  Setting 12" in means that in turn 1,they can be sitting on their opponent's table edge.  IF the 'nid player has enough size 2 terrain set up in his deploy zone that will grant his MC's cover from every possible angle,you shouldn't be playing against them.  A Ravenwing bike squad with a Plasma Pistol on the Sgt.,2 Melta-guns,and an Attack Bike with a Multi-Melta has a very good chance of dropping 1 monstrous creature a turn without assaulting. 

If the 'nidzilla player likes to bunch up his MC's,throw a Vindicator or two out there.

All the anti-nidzilla "tactics" are quite amusing. For one thing, they all seem to asume 100% accuracy and wounding on the part of the shooters. Sure, a ravenwing bike squad might be able to cause 4 wounds on an elite carnifex. But more likely, it'll cause 2 or 3, and then the squad dies.

Same for the "tactics" used to counter the little ones floating arond behind the MC wall - sure, you can move a speeder around the flanks...but then the speeder dies because massed S5 or S6 firepower kills them dead, or the gunfexes even further in the rear knock them down with venom cannons and barbed stranglers.

Is a Zilla list beatable? Of course. Any list can be beaten. But saying that the Dark Angels are well suited to take down a zilla nid list is just bunk.



Nonsense. You've been believing what you read in WD too much. Dark Angels have LESS AP1/2 firepower than other armies, their terminators are inherently less flexible due to only having 1 HW.

Nidzillas are one of the strongest lists in the game, if not the strongest overall. The simple fact that monstrous creatures retain full effectiveness until they're dead is what gives them that ability. If you're a shooting-based army, you need to be able to reliably inflict 12 or so wounds on T6, 3+/2+ save creatures per turn, even if they're in or behind 5+ or 4+ cover. If you're an assault based army, you need to be able to not only take on and kill 1-2 monstrous creatures in each assault phase, from turn 3 on, you also need to be able to deal with a dozen or two genestealers set to counter-charge you.

And if you'r'e a hybrid list, like most lists are, you need to be able to wipe out the genestealers or kill about 33% of the MCs before your assaulters get stuck in. And you have to do so while withstanding simply ridiculous amounts of incoming fire that a canny nid player will pour out.

So, Nids are all grouped up so you can't flank, and hiding in cover...

So, somewhere out there it is common for terrain to fit 6 TMC, 2 Guard, 3 zoans, and 16 stealers???
Also this means they are limiting themselves to 18" range, for the most part. they can't grab objectives, and can't come get you.

If they do decide to 'come get you', then they are out in the open, and *slow*

I am not overly familiar with the DA codex, but why will a speeder unit die after shooting?

Long range blast/Ord weapons will work wonders. Flamers are effective, heck there are a lot of effective tactics.

Nids have great mobility, and are great hth, especially on the charge. By sitting still, they are giving up these advantages, there are ways to exploit this, even for DA.

Sure - Adepticon. That aside, the TMCs themselves hide the Genestealers just fine.



If there's terrain near where they are, they can hop between them. If there's not, an 18" devourer bubble means they deny you a 3 FOOT diameter bubble, often towards the middle of the table. And that's not discussing the 36" range guns on the heavy 'fexes (and often the walking Tyrant).



That's just it - if you come close enough to their bubble, there's enough fast stuff in there to cause you grief. That flying twin-devourer tyrant? Yeah, he's got a 30" threat radius (read: a 5 FOOT diameter circle).



Come close enough for a flamer, and yeah, you'll get a few genestealers (depending on how you got there), and then you lose the flamer-carrying squad. Never mind how you get a 8" flamer template in range of them.

Ordnance templates can do ONE wound to a TMC. Blast templates will hit a single TMC (and max out at a single wound).



Effective speeder range? 24", at which they'll do, optimistically, around 2 wounds to a TMC out of cover.

Effective range on Carnifex devourers? 24". Multi-shot S6 firepower kills AV 10 skimmers dead. (Effective flyrant range? 30".) Nevermind the heavy fexes, who auto-glance with S10 Barbed Stranglers, or have a couple shots with S8 Venom cannons, or nasty zoanthropes.



I think you're missing the point. The Godzilla list is a SHOOTY list. It has 8 gun platforms, each of which is around 4 times as resilient as a vehicle, and maintain full firepower until completely dead. Moreover, they ARE mobile; unlike the typical gunline, they can saunter along at 6" a turn (12" on the flyrant), and give up no firepower. So if you're shooting at them with static heavy weapons, they can move around to screen, or snipe, as appropriate.

The "easy to kill" parts are COUNTER-assault elements, and serve a similar role as Rough Riders in an Imperial Guard list.

Nobody is saying they are unbeatable. But it's NOTHING like as simple a proposition as you're making it out to be, and most of the tactics you're suggesting just plain don't work.

Posted By ATI on 04/21/2007 7:16 AM
SIDE NOTE EDIT:
Skyth do you run your stealers with or without carapace armor updates? and I am really unfamiliar with the new tyrannid list (Not really all that new anymore) since I haven't been playing for 4 months.   What is in the dakkafex armor and toughness stat line?

Yeah, I run my stealers with  the 4+ save from carapace. 

Dakkafex has a MEQ armor save and like most monstrous creatures, he's T6.

Posted By Whatever on 04/21/2007 12:51 PM

The Ravenwing 'speeders and bike units' Scout move with a 24" Turbo-Boost combined with their 1st turn move will let those units cover 36" before they shoot. 

Just FYI, you can't turbo with the scout move, so you're limited to 24".

This is what drives me crazy. The list of counters.... yes all are possible, but they can't do them all, not at the same time. They can't be both hiding in cover *and* moving towards you. They can't totally block line of sight to the stealers *and* allow room for the stealers to get out. (They can move out of the way, but then they leave a hole in their wall for next turn)

So lets review:
We have 8 'gun platforms' *and* zoanthropes
We have 16 stealers, tightly packed so that 6 TMC's are totally blocking line of sight.
We have 6 TMC's that are packed so tightly that they are totally blocking LoS.
At the same time they are spread out enough that an Ord blast will only hit 1 of them.
We have a piece of terrain that is so large, that they all get cover saves.
We have terrain so close together, that they can 'hop' from one to another, even with a 6" move.
The terrain is simultaneously spread out enough that they have an 18" 'bubble' to shoot you. Nothing is blocking their line of sight.
We have stealers that are *behind* the TMC's, have a move of 6+d6+6 assault range, yet will come and get you if you get "close" to the '18" bubble" range.
We have an opponent, that knows there are 16 tightly packed stealers, yet decides that Ordinance is better used getting one hit on a fex, instead of hitting all 16 of the stealers.
We have an opponent that is worried about losing a unit in exchange for flaming those tightly packed stealers into charred bits.
The TMC's have a "3 FOOT diameter", yet we are playing on a "6 FOOT" table.
We have 6 TMC's that are controlling the game from the "center" of the table, yet somehow got there while moving 6" a turn, apparently always under cover, and never allowing LoS to the stealers.
We have a flyrant with a "5 FOOT" radius, of course that means he is out on his own for a turn, with a weapon that kils what, 1-2 marines in a turn? And if we can assault it, we can't get shot.
We have carnifexes that will move 6" to kill landspeeder, yet somehow is always in cover, and still blocks LoS to the stealers.
This carnifex will "kill speeders dead" eventhough statiscally it will get 3 glances, and thus only a 40% chance of rolling a 'destroy'. (But to be fair, can also get an immobilize, etc.)
Luckily, those speeders come *standard* with a 36" range. (for 20pts we can get a 48" twinlinked blast.)
The Gunfex is still in range, of course it will only get 1.4 glances per turn, so fire away.
(BTW, it is S10 VC and S8 BS)
We *know* there are 'easy to kill' parts, yet continually decide to leave them for last.

Yeah, I can understand why folks keep losing to Nidzilla lists....

In my experience, I've almost always had enough cover to advance my MC and keep them in cover the whole time. It really depends on how much terrain you use. I've also been able to advance my stealers/small bugs out of sight (for the most part) also.

As for the ordnance vs stealers - Any army that is really heavy on ordnance, the stealers (And little gribblies) will be used in a straight-out assault function rather than hanging out behind the lines.

The 18"-24" bubble is where if you can shoot the bugs, they can easily shoot back.

As for chance of downing a speeder-A dakkafex has a 70% chance of downing one, 17.6% chance of getting a weapon destroyed. Chance of speeder being able to still fire the next round is considerably smaller.

Tyrant vs speeder is 45.9% chance of downing it from 36". 13.7% chance of blowing off the AC.

Gunfex vs speeder is 40.2% chance of downing a speeder. Similar chances of blowing off the AC instead.

That's a pretty good analysis.

That's the Nids' game plan in a nutshell.

Move up the center of the table, to maximize their threat range and make it so that the only places to hide are at the far fringes of the table, compromising the opponent's ability to take objectives.

Always move through and into terrain, because it barely slows them down, and any cover save at all is pretty nasty in combination with T6. Even the T4 on the stealers is not bad- it substantially cuts down on the casualties they suffer from whirlwinds and heavy bolters by comparison to gaunts.

Usually the big bugs move up in groupings with 2 or 3 at a time in base contact with one another, forming a short wall to deny as much LOS as possible to stealers, zoanthropes, or other wounded big bugs. Since the bugs move and fire to full effect, they can freely tweak the angle of the wall each turn in response to enemy movement. Static or 6" moving shooty stuff like most tanks or heavy weapon units can't really see around even a 5-6" wide wall formed by two big bugs. Faster moving enemy units can come around the edge of the wall, but just due to the realities of geometry, they generally have to come within big bug shooting range to do so.

The bugs (mostly) stay clustered together for mutual support; in a way it's a new variation of the powerful shooty "castle" armies of third edition, like the SM Razorback army of shooty death. Except that the bugs trade long range for steady but moderate mobility, and big bugs can't suffer Crew Shaken. They also don't have the low-AP firepower of marines, but they make up for that in HtH.

Speeders are tough to use against this army, because the 36" gun is only S5 AP4, and the real money weapon (the AC) has only 24" range. Speeders do have the mobility needed to cicumnavigate the big bug wall/s. A 12" move usually won't do it (just due to the circumference of the circle as you get farther from the center), but a 24" move behind some LOS-blocking terrain may get you to a hidden position from which you can make that 12" move and unload on the stealers. You definitely want to move within 24", because a single heavy bolter only averages 1.33 dead stealers, even assuming they're not in cover. An AC adds 2.25 to that figure, giving a squadron of three speeders an average of 10.7 dead stealers. Enough to wipe out a squad. Of course, if they're in 5+ cover that number goes down to 7.1; a crippled squad, but still only half points, and the speeders are definitely going to be targeted by as much devourer fire as it takes to knock them down. 240pts for the price of a squad of stealers is a good trade for the bugs.

A better weapon for shooting the stealers is, as you pointed out, indirect ordnance. Basilisks and Defilers are excellent, though remember that only 1/3 of shots land directly on target. IG and Chaos don't have speeders, so the bug player doesn't have to worry as much about units slipping the flank to shoot around the big bugs, and he can spread out the stealers more behind the wall/s.

I'm glad we're getting into a more detailed tactical analysis of the challenge.

You're not getting the point, here, core. 

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 12:25 PM

This is what drives me crazy. The list of counters.... yes all are possible, but they can't do them all, not at the same time. They can't be both hiding in cover *and* moving towards you. They can't totally block line of sight to the stealers *and* allow room for the stealers to get out. (They can move out of the way, but then they leave a hole in their wall for next turn)

So lets review:
We have 8 'gun platforms' *and* zoanthropes

No.  You've got 7 gun platforms, and 3 zoanthropes.  Those 7 gun platforms are all T6, with a minimum of 4 wounds each.  The walking tyrant also generally has at least 4 additional wounds from tyrant guard.  If you give the heavy fexes reinforced chitin, that's a total of 34 T6 wounds. 

Unless you kill off a model entirely, you've done nothing to reduce the shooting potential coming back your way. 

We have 16 stealers, tightly packed so that 6 TMC's are totally blocking line of sight.
We have 6 TMC's that are packed so tightly that they are totally blocking LoS.
At the same time they are spread out enough that an Ord blast will only hit 1 of them.

6 MC's lined up base to base creates a wall 18" long.  An ordnance blast gets 1 model fully underneath, and at most 2 partials.  Usually, though, you've only got 4 or 5 MC's making a wall 12-15" long, as your gunfexes are holding back to pick off targets of opportunity.  Either way, that's enough to be able to screen the counter-assault elements from incoming fire.

We have a piece of terrain that is so large, that they all get cover saves.
We have terrain so close together, that they can 'hop' from one to another, even with a 6" move.
The terrain is simultaneously spread out enough that they have an 18" 'bubble' to shoot you. Nothing is blocking their line of sight.

 The available terrain is relatively unimportant.  A cover save is nice, but usually the only ones who get that are the 5-wound gunfexes holding the rear. 

We have stealers that are *behind* the TMC's, have a move of 6+d6+6 assault range, yet will come and get you if you get "close" to the '18" bubble" range.
We have an opponent, that knows there are 16 tightly packed stealers, yet decides that Ordinance is better used getting one hit on a fex, instead of hitting all 16 of the stealers.
We have an opponent that is worried about losing a unit in exchange for flaming those tightly packed stealers into charred bits.

 Sure, you can use indirect ordanace to take out the stealers.  Which means you're playing SM, Guard, or Chaos.  If you're playing Chaos, you're talking defilers.  With IG, you're talking basilisks.  And with SM, you're talking whirlwinds.  good options, either way...but you're still talking only a 33% chance of hitting the target.  scatter off the target and you're only killing a handful. 

In addition, with defilers and basilisks, you've got to worry about minimum range.  Your indirect ordnance has gone down first, before any of the mobile MC's or genestealers has been placed.  So you've got one, maybe two turns before the targets are inside the minimum range. 

Now, you can also try to get a flamer in range to hit those genestealers.  To do that, you've got to get the transport within 12" of the genestealers, the turn before.  You've got to keep that transport out of LOS, because 12" is within range of the S5/6 devourers and venon cannons carried by the MC shieldwall, and also have to keep that transport out of LOS of the gunfexes, zoanthropes, and flyrants.  Or you can try it flamer-carrying bikes...same problem.  Sure you can turbo-boost the bikes...but the 'nids shooting doesn't care about the invulnerable save.

In other words, to take out those genestealers...just how many points of units are you going to be dedicating to that task?  And how much less AP2-3 firepower does the rest of your army have left to deal with the real threat...the MCs.

The TMC's have a "3 FOOT diameter", yet we are playing on a "6 FOOT" table.
We have 6 TMC's that are controlling the game from the "center" of the table, yet somehow got there while moving 6" a turn, apparently always under cover, and never allowing LoS to the stealers.
We have a flyrant with a "5 FOOT" radius, of course that means he is out on his own for a turn, with a weapon that kils what, 1-2 marines in a turn? And if we can assault it, we can't get shot.

Dakkafexes can hit targets within a 4' diameter circle.  Flyrants have a 5 foot diameter threat radius.  That's simple mathematics. 

Sure if you can isolate a flyrant, you can tie it up, and maybe even kill it.  but just how are you assaulting it?  anything on foot has an assault range of 12".  Jump pack troopers are another option, but then you're depending on the flyrant to move into good range for you.   

We have carnifexes that will move 6" to kill landspeeder, yet somehow is always in cover, and still blocks LoS to the stealers.
This carnifex will "kill speeders dead" eventhough statiscally it will get 3 glances, and thus only a 40% chance of rolling a 'destroy'. (But to be fair, can also get an immobilize, etc.)
Luckily, those speeders come *standard* with a 36" range. (for 20pts we can get a 48" twinlinked blast.)
The Gunfex is still in range, of course it will only get 1.4 glances per turn, so fire away.
(BTW, it is S10 VC and S8 BS)

To really get those stealers, you need to get the assault cannon within range.  Doing that brings you within 24".

And again, how many points are you putting into those speeders, which do next to nothing against the MCs. 

Sure, they can only glance.  But 3 glances is enough for a statistical kill, and any glancing hits means the speeder's not shooting next turn, or at least loses the assault cannon. 

We *know* there are 'easy to kill' parts, yet continually decide to leave them for last.

Yeah, I can understand why folks keep losing to Nidzilla lists....

Sure, you can try to maneuver and get the shots to kill off the softer parts.  but then you're putting your troops out of position to deal with the real threats.  and you've got to do it quick, or else the heavy hitters are in range. 

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/22/2007 1:33 PM

The bugs (mostly) stay clustered together for mutual support; in a way it's a new variation of the powerful shooty "castle" armies of third edition, like the SM Razorback army of shooty death. Except that the bugs trade long range for steady but moderate mobility, and big bugs can't suffer Crew Shaken. They also don't have the low-AP firepower of marines, but they make up for that in HtH.

I like this analogy. I find that in early 3rd edition the razorback spam was not nearly as obnoxious as the Godzilla lists.

Atleast you could take out a razorback with one shot....

This army has many of the elements that were distasteful in third edition and made it unique to a single army such as screening.

as far as how to use DA and win against nidzilla, .....all I can say is good luck.
GW better get on the ball and balance the Nids to the DA (as counter intuitive as that sounds).

Which is just not fair, it seems that DA had a whole lot of points increases, and decreased a whole lot of customization (while getting rid of pointless choices which is good) a lot of the things that DA players enjoy, like plasma ended up costing more points, while rhinos (death coffins) went down in points but are still steel traps.

Either way, all you can get for DA's is luck against a nid list. I would think some termies with hammers would work but hell even that doesn't seem to make sense.