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Yeah,if you went hardcore Deathwing with it,you might have a chance.   In that case,you'd probably want to send a Ravenwing squad after the 'stealers to keep them off of your termies.  Maybe even pull a Droppod Deathwing Assault on a couple of the pockets of MC's on turn 1.  One good thing about Termie heavy lists is that if you get some dice luck,they can be really hard to beat.  Of course,the reverse is true,too,but as strong as 'nidzilla is,DW probably gives you as good a chance as any.

Azriel, Baliel with lighting claws, 5 termies 4 with lc 1 ac powerfist and banner is a blender to any unit in the game. I'm pretty sure they could take on/finish off most TMC's in a zilla list that get into the firing line after a few turns of shooting.

The point of my last post,the 'review' was to highlight that when people talk about what the Zilla army 'can do', they don't take into account that while they can do any of those things, they can't do all of those things.

Case in point, In the preceding posts, we have gunfexes walking in the wall to protect the stealers, and we have gunfexes in the background, in cover, looking for targets.

We have the wall o'Niddy death heading towards the center to control the board, and yet walking towards where ever the defiler is to get within range.

Yes, it can do any of these things, but not all of them. Every decision the Nid player makes, is a choice, and as it strengthens one aspect, it weakens another. If they place the wall to front, it weakens the sides. If they leaves a gunfex on a hill for better targeting, it leaves it without as much support. If they take the gunfex for support, it weakens it target acquisition

Place the defiler in the corner, pick the side where the Nids will have the least cover. Now if they want to 'close the gap', they can't control the middle.

Once the HS is down, you pretty much know where the whole Nid army is going.

If he is going with a Wall to block LoS, spread out your fast attack, and quickly get past that line. You can assault the gunfexes if they are left behind, or you can shoot at the stealers once past the wall.

They can turn to face you, but only by weakening the wall in other directions. And if you send bikes/vehicles/whatever on both sides of the Nids, even better.

THere are only 16 stealers (from our example), you only need to kill a few. And yes, it is worth it to give up a more expensive unit to get rid of those stealers.

Devilfex has a 24" range, but not in all directions, unless they split up.

A devilfex shooting at a squad of 3 speeders: 6 hits so two on each
one glance on each.

To be 'enough' to be sure to down the squadron, it is likely to take all 3 fexes.

Tactic: Take a turn or two hiding from gunfexes and shooting stealers at range. Kill 6-8.
Rush in and kill 8-10 stealers. On the same turn, begin moving units into the 18" range.
Nid dilemma, shoot the speeders, or the oncoming assautl forces? The HB/AC squad of 3 can do 3.444 wounds to a T6 2+ fex (assuming no cover)

Tactic: if they leave gunfexes behind, try and assault them first, as they are out of support range. Or use the landspeeders to take them out.The HB/AC squad of 3 can do 3.444 wounds to a T6 2+ fex (assuming no cover)
Also, use other TMC's to block the gunfex line of sight.


Anyway, I really don't know the other codex's well enough to continue. The weakness of the fex-line is assault. But they ahve the stealers,so take out the stealers, and assault.

They are also slow, don't worry about winning in the first 2-3 turns, and use better mobility to stay at your optimum distance.
Along with that, a good chunk of their firepower is fairly short ranged. Killing 4 stealers from 30" is better than killing 10 from 18".
They have a limited number of units. It will take 3 devil fex to take out a speeder squadron. They can be overwhelmed. You just need to be patient in setting this up.

It is hard to discuss specifics, since everyone has a different idea of what makes up a Nidzilla list. And how to counter it will depend on which army. Since I don't have the DA codex, I can't be of much specific help.

Just remember their weaknesses, and that they can't do everything at once. Force them to make choices, and exploit what they didn't choose.

There is really only one way for this to end. I'll have to drive out to where coredump lives with a Godzilla list and show him how it works. ;-)

What Centurian has described is fairly accurate. Bug placement and tactics change with each army, scenario, and terrain layout each seperate game presents. I myself don't use Zopes and I have 4-5 squads of 6 stealer with 4+ saves.

The Gunfexes stay behind, usaully skirting the deployment zone. After 3 HV deployments the Zilla opponent won't know where the main body is going yet. The main body consists of a walking shooty Tyrant (with 2 guard) and 3 elite fexes. These 4 TMC's will provide a wall only when necessary. Sometimes a heavy fex is thrown into the mix. The walking tyrant will deploy in the center of the line with 2 guard in front. Any shots directed at him will go to guard. He lives and lives and lives. The Flyrant is sometimes off on his own and sometimes behind the main body. It all depends on the situation. Never underestimate him though.

I myself can have the seperate squads of stealers on their own or behind the wall. Sometimes they split up and do both. Smaller squads grouped close by (not BtB, but close) and strung out in a line with a lone representive in front allows for 2-4 fleet rolls to get the 6.

Most games I would say I don't use a wall. Sometimes I will spread out and let the opponent decide what will kill him. Whatever he doesn't shoot, gets him.

Centurian has won the Adepticon Gladiator. I have won the Adepticon Gladiator and I have run 2 others. The only time I have ever lost with Godzilla was against another Godzilla list run by the guy who runs the whole Adepticon event (and he's a veteran Godzilla player also). Two years ago my Godzilla list swamped the Gladiator champ and his list and the Adepticon open champion and his list in the same tournament (remember I can't play because I run the events). These are not local tournament champs. These are not hobby shop lists I'm talking about and when I play I like to use my mouth so I know they were trying to beat me.

But look so many things in 40K is regional. In Chicago we almost never use book scenarios, we use custom objective based mission with 3 tiers of objectives. We also use a good deal of terrain. 25-30% of the board has terrain, sometimes more. Both of these work to the Godzilla lists advantage.

To be honest our arguments should not be enough to persuade you. You should find out for yourself and make an informed decision based on those events and not what we say on this forum.

Ok now I know this isn't the correct place but since it seems to be degenerating into a &&$$ing match between DA versus Tyranid players, how about I mention a force that crumples a Nidzilla list.

Autarch on Jet Bike with Reaper Cannon, Laser Lance, and Mandiblaster.

2 squads of 5 Wraithguard, Warlock with Singing Spear and Destructor, Wave Serpent with Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines, Spirit Stones.

2 squads of 10 Dire Avengers with exarch shimmer shield, power sword, blade storm, defend

2 Fire Prisms with Shuriken Cannons, Holofield, Vectored Engines, Spririt Stones

We really need to put this to the test. DA VS NIDS... I got one win for us already. /grin

 

 

 

The best way to beat 'nidzilla will probably be to wait until GW writes a new 'nid codex.  Then,if their current theme holds true,they'll cut out at least 3/4 of the 'nids options and they'll be brought crashing back down to the rest of the pack.  That,and 3/4 of the 'nid players will cry about it.  Seriously,though,with the insane amount of options given to 'nids,it's no wonder they're one of the top armies out there.  The abuse of that list is probably a big reason why the new codex's,starting with DA,are getting a lot of options stripped away.

The key to fighting Nids is two Devastator squads. All with Lascannons and combat squadd'ed out. That's 8 Lascannon shots per turn, and it comes to 610 points.

It's the only way to get lots of AP2 death, and it's all long range. Granted it's not as efficient as Las/Plas, but it works out to be about 153 points per 5 Guys with two Lascannons, in 4 separate targets for the Nid player. Use your troops (be they bikes or just tacticals) as what they are practically designed for - rapid fire/assault in cheap little rhino's and try and kill the big bugs - or sit back and bolter the smaller guys as they advance.

From my experience vs. Nids you throw Lascannons at them and focus fire on one MC at a time, and you can do well assuming you have some counter charge for their Flyrant and enough dakka to down their Stealers/Raveners/Gaunts before they hit your lines. These must come from separate units.

The only problem with DA's is that you don't get something that's really efficient (vs Nidzilla) in Troops - so you're stuck with Tac squads (or bikes if you wanted to risk it).

I am in NYC, you are more than welcome.

Of course, it will be my stealers and raveners against your fexes.... I only play Nids, so far at least.

I realize that Nidzilla is a powerful list, I don't think it is winning by pure random luck. But many of these threads are too full of "They can do everything" to have much credence. They have a certain 'Chicken Little' theme about them.

People start ranting about how powerful they are because they can A,B,C,D,E,F...... without stopping to realize that those were 6 different lists, with 6 different sets of advantages and disadvantages. You will hear that they have 8 TMC's, 32 guants, 30 stealers, 4 raveners, 3 Zoans, the Zoans will have synapse, and warp blast, and Scream, the gunfex will be in back sniping, and in a wall protecting, the stealers will be totally out of sight, yet can crush you if you get within 24". That kind of stuff

I am not saying there is an easy button to just beat all zilla lists, but there is an almost hysteria about them. It would be more useful for folks to chill and try and figure out how to beat them, besides just assuming they are unbeatable.
I am not posturing that I can beat them all the time, I don't usually play Nid vs Nid, so it doesn't really affect me. But I also know they have weaknesses.

If I really get bored, or decide to really put off working this week, maybe I will try and design a SM list that can handle a Zilla army, and still deal with other threats.

I will admit there is a hysteria about the Godzilla list being unbeatable in my (current) area...Got tanked on all my soft scores for taking a downgraded one in a tournament.

If people would take time to analyze it instead of just feeding off the fear, it probably wouldn't be that bad.

Posted By skyth on 04/23/2007 4:25 AM
I will admit there is a hysteria about the Godzilla list being unbeatable in my (current) area...Got tanked on all my soft scores for taking a downgraded one in a tournament.

If people would take time to analyze it instead of just feeding off the fear, it probably wouldn't be that bad.

It's not unbeatable, but you seriously need to bring rediculous amounts of firepower and your own cheesiest army lists to combat it on any kind of an even footing.

I mean, this is what happens when a really good and powerful army type comes out.  Here's the difference though, I wouldn't pull out my Las/Plas+ Assault Cannons+Counter Charge army out for your average 40k game at my local GW.  How often do Nids players pull out Godzilla for "friendly games"?  There's pretty much no difference between Godzilla and your other top-tier armies, and there's really no toning it down without droping a lot of TMC's which makes it not Godzilla.   Like Mech Tau you can tone down for fun games, Marines are the same way, Eldar too, even Chaos.  Godzilla you really can't.

I mean honestly they're a top tier army, not quite as broken as IW, but definitely up there with say "Ass cannon marines" and Mech Tau/Eldar.

I think the combined arms shooty Razorback heavy list has the best chance.

It I was playing that list versus Nidzilla, I would deploy mostly in a corner and use my Razorbacks as blocking terrain, while my long range heavy weapons shoot diagonally across the board at the other flank.

That way you take away a lot of the Godzilla Nids ability to shoot you and whittle down your squads and you can slowly where down one of his flanks. Then it is a matter of dealing with the other side, which you can do with late in the game charges by assault squads and Terminators.

I would also use cheap Dro Pod Scouts or DA veterans in a drop pod to try and eliminate the Geenstealer rear.

Just a quick opinion question: Would godzilla still exist if the elitefex option would be strapped?

And another serious, yet inexperienced question, how much counterattack does a Godzilla list has if there are TMC all over the place?

Greets
Schepp himself

No elite fex = no Nidzilla

But it is useful model in lots of lists, not just Zilla.


And it is almost impossible to define. There is a decent amount of variation in Zilla lists. Also depends on the points level and such.


Also, many (most?) of the Zilla players I know and know of, are not long term Nids players. They sort of jumped on the idea of a Zilla army.

There are three "categories" of Nidzilla lists, I have played and lost to all of them, but they are general categories I find are useful:

Steeler Horde Nidzilla - This list favors packing as many 'Stealers as possible around at least 5 TMCs, most of the time a player of this list will find Carapace Armor on Geenstealers "not worth it" and just go for a general run at you playstyle. This is probably the least effective Nidzilla list and it is actually quite beatable. For example, my team at adepticon beat this list with Gaurdian heavy Eldar.

Choir Nidzilla - This list drops a Gun Fex in favor of the "Choir" I.E.Zoenthropes. I classify this as the second most effective list in the game, as against some armies the choir is very useful and against others... not so much.

Nidzilla - Thit is what I consider the most unbeatable list in the game, 6 Carniefexes, 3 Dakka, 3 Gun, with Walking Tyrant and bodygaurd and Flyrant. Usually has 3 or four "stealer squads with Carapace armor hiding behind the big bugs, you can also see Ravengers and Rippers running around to tie up units too. Casi Belli took this to the Team Tournament and placed 4th out of 96 teams. I say this is the most effective list because there are hardly any other list out there that can match it in straight up power, and it will be 100% effective against any enemy unlike the choir who looses something if it faces Fearless or other armies.


Nidzilla is hard to beat, especially in a take all comers setting like a tournament. If you ever face them here are the top two priorities you have:

1) Kill the support structure first - the Carnifexes in the list relly on the counter attack they have to keep them safe, however you can do it, kill any fast moving assault that they have over the Carnifexes

2) Flank them - I.E. use their advantage to you betterment. All Nidzilla is thinking is reaching the center most games, if you put a hurting on the flank of them they will have to go through their own models to get to you. This is where good assault units come in. Usually you can kill a Carnifex or two with a good assault unit. Just make sure you have eliminated any counter attack they have.

Whatever you do, you have to minimize the effectiveness of their army. That can be accomlished by blocking their lines of fire, indirecting their stealers, etc. It is an uphill battle, but doable

Mahu that is perhaps the most useful explanation of Zilla nids I have seen and thank you for writing it, i've only hit the choir before and it was pretty rough but with that kind of advice, especially the DA specific advice (Razorback spam) im thinking that its not entirely impossible to beat the zillas with DA.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 04/23/2007 7:10 AM
 there's really no toning it down without droping a lot of TMC's which makes it not Godzilla.   Like Mech Tau you can tone down for fun games, Marines are the same way, Eldar too, even Chaos.  Godzilla you really can't.

Sure you can...No flying Tyrant, No Tyrant Guard, No Raveners.

Given the direction of the DA codex, I think its safe to assume that Nidzilla lists will be heavily toned down. My guess is carnifex's will be either elite only or HS only. MC are too good to allow that many.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Having played it for a while and seen other people's lists I don't get why they take stealers anymore. They're just walking vps to an army that doesn't want to assault you.

IW for example, or Mecha Tau or Eldar, can score big vps by killing your stealers in short order with heavy bolters/burst cannons/scatterlasers/etc. Or they can waste their fire on little bugs that are 1/3rd the pts and nearly as tough.

I stomp Tau like a chump, but I doubt I'd do that without 40 little bugs to throw at their crisis suits to force them back off of my big bugs

My list is, btw:
1850
Flyrant of choppiness
Little tyrant with 2 guard/vc/devs

3 mini-fexes

5 x 8 spinegaunts

2 gunfexes tricked out with 2+/T7/Regenerate/5W (yeah I know I'm a dork)
3 zoeys (synapse, 2 warp blast, 3 psychic scream)

3 x 1 ravener


My ravs get on people, the stealers didn't. My spinegaunts can be used offensively as a pushback unit whereas the stealers either A) sit around dicking off until I get assaulted, b) get shot. Either way the gaunts are useful the whole game whereas the stealers are kinda useless most of it.

Ok, I had another idea for a list. I'll write it up tonight, but how about taking a drop-pod of shotgun armed scouts w/ hidden fist, and another drop-pod of Veterans with flamers and fists/TH. Supported by Dev's w/ Lascannons/PlasmaCannons, and Tactical Squads w/ Meltas and Lascannons and fists w/ Razorback transports.

The idea is to drop in the pods to clear the screen of stealers/gaunts, then in later turns assault the big bugs and use the fists to take them out. This somewhat requires both pods to land at the same time, but I figure luck will be needed to beat Nidzilla's no matter what.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Who's your daddy?

Drop podding close to nidzilla seems really scary to me. You can get in on turn two at best, meaning you can't assault till turn 3. Thats at least 12" of movement given to the nids, giving them serious advancement across the board. If you do DP into the nids on turn two, they will be setup to absorb the deepstrike. But I could be really wrong on that one.

So I can't get close to Nidzillas, cause they'll eat me, I can't stay away, as they will shoot me (with things that will eat me) and I can't outmaneuver them as they can move and fire their guns...

$%!@! I'm dead no matter what!

Seriously, I think clearing the screen and then pounding them w/ fists to death may work. 3 vets with fists/th get 12 attacks on charge.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well, the usual advice of "assault the shooty bits, shoot the assaulty bits", continues to apply. It's just that the overall durability and mobility of the list make it harder than usual.

As with the old 3rd-ed style shooty castle lists, the close proximity of units helps them support one another. But the bugs are fully mobile while shooting, and have more inherent resilience to assault. A unit without a Fist or Rending generally shouldn't assault even a pure shooty Carnifex, unlike an IG, Eldar, or SM shooty unit, which can generally be beaten down by 3-4 basic assault guys who manage to live long enough to get there.

The old shooty castle armies, due to their vulnerability to assault, also tended to cede the center of the table and control of objectives to any surviving enemy forces. Often their strategy had to be to ignore the objectives and just kill the enemy, reasoning that the objectives were irrelevant if there were no enemy units alive or over half to hold them. For example, Ed's old 3rd ed shooty SM and IG lists. If they failed in this, sometimes the opponent's surviving forces (even if the army was badly mauled), could still hold the objectives/quadrants and win the game. The bugs, OTOH, can keep moving towards the objectives while shooting, and without compromising (usually) their counterassault ability.

So far my successes against Nidzilla and semi-Zilla lists (I?m overall at 3 wins, a loss and a draw against them using Eldar in the loss and Chaos in the others) have relied on a strategy of trying to encourage my opponents to spread out at least a little, using concentrated firepower to drop one big bug at a time, and using terrain and superior mobility to try and delay the bulk of his guns getting into range. And assaulting later in the game once (if) I?m able to break the units apart so they?re not intersupporting closely enough.

Obviously with so few games I don?t have a lot of experience, and none of my opponents have been really top-tier bug players; two of them were very competitive Adepticon teams, though (No FN Mournival and Lictor My Spores).

Posted By Hellfury on 04/22/2007 2:54 PM
This army has many of the elements that were distasteful in third edition and made it unique to a single army such as screening.

It's ironic.  In 3rd ed Tyranids were the only army that couldn't use screening.  Shoot The Big Ones indeed.

What was that placebo song about role reversals?

I have to agree with Mannahnin about using deployment and movement to force your opponent to spread out, and even more importantly, concentrating on a single enemy unit until it is dead if at all possible. Obviously, 2 Dakkafexes with 1-2 wounds left each will kill twice as many as one fully healthy one and one dead one.

My main army for the last few years has been DE, and using the above tactics, I haven't really had any trouble with 'Nidzilla armies, whether they are Scream armies, 'Stealer armies, or 'Gaunt armies. The worst trouble I had was with a 'Stealer/Scream combo army in a mission that used the sustated attack(assaul?) rule. It's not fair that when I killed one of his Troops units, he got a brood of Genestealers on my doorstep, and when he killed a unit of my Troops, I got a sniper squad.

I've had similar success with my infiltrating Alpha Legion. Using the infiltrating deployment is almost as good as high mobility to spread your opponent out. Also, my AL is very shooty, with lots of plasma and melta (with a smattering of Las/Plas), so I could usually take out 1-1&1/2 MC's per turn, and the ton of auto cannons did a big number on the smaller bugs. If it became needed, I also had three Power fists, coupled with the good old nasty infiltrating lord/leiutenant who could usually kamikaze attack and take out an MC by themselves as long as shooting had done 1-2 wounds to it.

Sal

Hey I've already admitted I was wrong on stealers originally. Playing a few more games sold me on the little fellas. Having 40+ expendable dudes really screws with other people's gameplan of "shoot the big bugs one at a time" because they have to stop and shoot the little ones or else.

I still am in ahh to the fact that people think this list is so darn hard? An army that shoot, and assaults? First off you get a save vs any weapon that they have. If you dont via zons, just space your units out. Very few of his units will be able to move fast. That in turn is going to give you plenty of time to burn him down. Maybe you should invest in more in troop instead of termies with assault cannon. Waiting on a six to pay off is pointless in a game, and 260 ish point for your termi unit is a big chunck of change to have in a five man unit. If you are getting pounded into the dirt via Nids, then I would look to the general of the DA player. 

Also posting a battle report from last night NID VS Green Marine/DA if you want to read up. Hats off to David the nid player and to find out  who won, well you will just have to see the report!