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JohnHwangDD wrote:Nope, if you're working on printed values, then "X" is "X" and cannot cause ID, because X can just as easily be nothing from the vehicle context.

If you're hitting a non-vehicle, how is the vehicle 'context' even remotely relevant?

The 'printed' Strength of the NS is 8 against a non-vehicle. I'm not sure where you're getting this arbitrary distinction for which printed rules are valid and which aren't.

If you're working on as-used values, and insisting that X is 8, then you have to use the as-used Toughness value which is the Leadership value.

No you don't, because, once again, checking for ID is not the same process as checking to Wound.

Rolling to wound uses the Strength vs the target's Leadership.
Checking for Instant Death uses the Strength of whatever wounded the model vs the model's Toughness.

Two seperate processes.

The NS rule *does* change the Toughness value for the purposes of Wounding by NS.

No it doesn't. It simply uses the Leadership value instead of the Toughness. And again, that applies to rolling to wound, not to anything else.

You can't only apply the part of the rule that says use S8 and then ignore the part of the rule that says to use Ld.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply applying it where it's relevant, and not applying it where it's not.

And if you're arguing that you can't use the Ld value for ID, what is your basis for using the S8 value for ID?

Er... the fact that the ID rules tell us to use the Strength of whatever wounded the model?

Does the NS rule actually *say* that you can use S8 for the purposes of ID tests?

Do the rules for the boltgun actually *say* that you can use S4 for the purposes of ID tests?

Oh, wait...

flavius infernus wrote:Was out of circulation for a bit, but stopped back by in time for this thread.

Moz and Insaniak are delivering a correct literal reading of the RAW.

Not even close.

In general, the NS strength is X. That doesn't change the more-specific rule that, when shooting at a non-vehicle target, it is strength 8 rather than X. So it interacts with the ID rule with that strength characteristic.

"In general?" What is that? Are we taking your word for it? p. 23 BGB: The Strength Characteristic of a weapon is that listed under "strength" (abbreviated "S") in the weapon profile.

Any sound argument that can be made is necessarily correct, like this one:

P1: The NS is strength 8
P2: Any target wounded by a weapon with twice it's toughness suffers instant death
C: A unit with T4 or less wounded by the NS suffers instant death

In this case, the later parts of the NS rule don't contradict the statement that it is strength 8, so there's no grounds for invoking context as something that invalidates the statement that the NS is strength 8.

We'll see how wrong that statement is in a second (nothing technically wrong with the argument, though)...

The premise that says "the NS is strength X and you can ignore the place where it says strength 8" is an assumption not founded in a literal reading of the rules.

Except that this "premise" doesn't exist anywhere in this thread so far. Again, I'll submit my argument, specifically tailored to what you fail to be grasping:

P1: The NS has the following weapon profile: S X AP 1 Assault 1 Template
P2: "S X" is, in all cases, indicative of special weapon-specific rules
P3: The NS states: "Roll to wound as follows..."
C1: We are now following weapon special rules for determining if a target is wounded... So, for the sake of the discussion, "S X" can be replaced with "Follow special rules to see if target is wounded" (leaving vehicles out of this; they don't matter for this discussion)
P4: Target was wounded
C2: Target was wounded via a weapon's special rules as described in the codex. Therefore, the target was wounded by a weapon with the following profile: S X AP 1 Assault 1 Template
C3: The target takes a single wound, because he was only hit once by a weapon with "Strength X"

Having said that, the rule raises some questions once you drift away from the RAW reading, and could use some clarification.

While you were busy quoting the RAW, you may have forgotten this little tidbit that was staring up at you from your book: "Roll to wound as follows..."

It's too bad Nurglitch isn't on this thread, he'd have a field day pointing out the hidden assumptions in a lot of posts.

To aruge ID works against T with strength 8, the hidden assumption is that the neural shredder "has a strength value at least double toughness." The problem here, of course, is that the NS only has a strength while wounding, not after the save is failed. So, assumption is more clearly that either 1) the check to determine ID is simultaneous with the check for ID, or 2) that the NS has an inherent strength 8, even when not invovled in the split second of wounding.

To argue that the NS cannot cause ID you must assume that the ID rule calls back to some profile, not simply a stated value of S. The problem here is that there are times when a wound is not caused by a profile weapon (Perils of the Warp, for example) that can cause ID.

The key word in the ID rules is "has," meaning that the test is independent of the actual wounding process. When looking, the weapon does not have Strength 8 in the profile. However, according the to Witchhunters codex, the weapon "has a strength of 8, only instead of using toughnes...".

Here's where it get's really interesting. The rule about causing a d3 on the glance table does not say instead of rolling to penetrate normally. An argument could be made you get a S8 hit on the vehicle (alhtough it's pretty clear that RAI is to circumvent that).

Essentially, my argument boils down to this: do you use the value of X in the profile, or the value of 8 in the rules?

As per Tryanid weapons, I think you should use the value in the rules.

In addition, if you look on P 23 of the BGB, under rolling to hit it says to use the Strength value found in the weapons description, not in the weapons profile. This is evidence that the key is to use all of the data included on a weapon, not simply the bare profile.

Tyranid weapons don't apply, because they simply have a modifier for weapon strength. They don't follow a specific set of codex rules beyond determining weapon strength, which is at least indicated as "S + or - [something]"

The NS is "S X," indicating a reference to special rules that give a specific process for determining if the weapon wounds. The rules that dictate this process have nothing to do with Instant Death, by wrote. They simply determine if the target has been wounded in a way that is in exception to the normal process.

Instant Death requires that a weapon have a listed strength, which the NS does not have. It has rules that tell you to "Roll to wound as follows:".

ACtually, if you look at the witchhunter codex the rule states that the NS "has a strength of 8" before it explains any deviation from the normal wound cycle. Right now, it's the only reason I'm disagreeing with you, because it seems to me that ID checks for Strength at a time distinct from wounding. However, it seems incorrect to only allow for a strength value in the profile, when the BGB says to use the description, including any explanation and rules text.

My DH codex is in the car, so I can't compare, but this could be a stealth edit.

It is possible that the two codexes conflict, I guess. I hope not.

The DH codex that I'm holding says "Roll to wound as follows:" and then the rest, which you all know by now.


EDIT: That's from the second printing, copyright 2002.

EDIT (2): Insaniak, what's the strength of a Neural Shredder?

EDIT (3): **gives a big bear hug to JohnHWangDD and Lormax**

No, the printed value is "X" - that's what the statline says. It's 8 when you roll to wound, but once that die is rolled, it reverts back to "X" (which can't ID).

If you argue that the "printed" S is 8, then you have to concede that the "printed" T is Ld.

If you're checking ID with the actual Strength value that was used to wound, then you have to also use the actual Toughness value (9, from Ld)that was wounded.

ColonelEllios wrote:Instant Death requires that a weapon have a listed strength,

...which the NS has.

Nowhere does ID refer solely to the weapon's profile. Nor should it, since as Polonius pointed out, ID is sometimes caused by things without a profile.

You're creating a distinction between the profile Strength and the Strength at which the weapon wounds which simply doesn;t exist in the rules.

So once again, since you ignored the question: If a model is wounded by a NS, what was the Strength of the wounding hit?

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, the printed value is "X"

That's one printed value. It also has a printed value of '8' which applies in certain situations.

It's 8 when you roll to wound,

...and therefore if a model is wounded, it was wounded by something with a Strength of 8.

If you argue that the "printed" S is 8, then you have to concede that the "printed" T is Ld.

No, I don't. For the reasons I've already given.

If you're checking ID with the actual Strength value that was used to wound, then you have to also use the actual Toughness value (9, from Ld)that was wounded.

And again, no, you don't, because the model's Leadership value is not the model's Toughness value.

Seperate processes. Wounding is not Instant Death.

When hit by NS, the models Toughness *is* it's Ld.

...and around we go again...

The NS rule specifies a situation where it has S8... wich is only when you roll to wound vs ld.

Nothing about any other situation, as ID or anything else.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Lormax wrote: The Shredder text doesn't say we can use the strength value during the wounding process for anything else.

I would agree with this if the rule said something like "For the roll to wound, the neural shredder has strength 8..."

Actually, it does say that.

I will point out that the rule for NS never changes the targets (T).

Instant Death only requires that a model be WOUNDED by a weapon with a (S) of 2 times or more of the targets (T).

"Roll to wound as follows:" tells you how to wound and in this line we are told that the (S) of the NS is 8. Further we are told that we do not compare the (S) to the (T) but rather the (Ld) when makeing this roll.

The Strength: X in the profile IS NOT nil or a variable because the rule tells us that it is 8 when wounding. 8 when wounding !

To wrap your head around it you could read the profile as Strength: (see rules above).

There is no rule in 40K that states that X equals (any one thing). In fact X has no meaning without other rules to define it.

You can ID with a NS.
Sincity

Instant Death only requires that a model be WOUNDED by a weapon with a (S) of 2 times or more of the targets (T).

I think both camps here have made valid points to justify their respective positions. I am tending to lend towards the argument that the NS does not cause ID. To me using other weapons with a strength of X such as Tyranids is invalid because they are not the same thing - apples and oranges. I think a good idea is to step away from RAW for just a moment and first ask your collective selves was this the intent of the developers (i.e., NS causes ID)... no one I know has ever played it that way... that does mean they are correct but it does form a basis for an overall view how this should be played. The RAW aspect is important and don't get me wrong there - I understand what you guys are saying and it makes sense from that perspective but I do not think the RAW interpretation is 100% air tight.

If you do play such that the NS inflicts ID then you have a means of easily sniping an enemy independent character (possibly more than one) worth a lot of points... that is going to make a lot of people very unhappy if you ask or tell them to remove their model from the table. So to me it all comes down to the spirit of the rules and common courtesy. I know that RAW advocates dislike terms such as SotR and CC but the world of 40k gaming is not an island. I would not do it simply because I find it to be an underhanded tactic that is very unbalanced. That is my opinion and I am not saying I am right. I am looking at this dispute from a good distance and taking into account more factors than simply can you do this because RAW seems to support it.

- G

Sincity wrote:You can ID with a NS.
Sincity

In truth , I don't play it that way eather , it's just not worth the argument. That changes nothing , RAW is the way GW has said to solve these issues. Or roll a d6.

Sincity

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you do play such that the NS inflicts ID then you have a means of easily sniping an enemy independent character (possibly more than one) worth a lot of points...

Heaven forbid that an assassin should be able to do such a thing...

Thank you for helping to support what I said.

: )

- G

JohnHH: I think you are mistakenly lumping the wounding process with the ID process. It is two seperate checks, and each will use the values that is required. The NS wounds as it wounds according to it's rules, its only after it does an unsaved wound that ID checks S to T. The ID rules do not allow for any deviation from the S to T test, so it's not appropriate.

I re-rechecked the codex, and it appears that I was wrong, it does say the following:

"Roll to wound as follows: the neural shredder has a Strength of 8 but, rather then using the targets' Toughness, their Leadership is used... The NS has the following profile..." And the infamous Strength: X appears.

There are two ways to read this rule:

1) While rolling to wound, the NS is S 8. This has been the primary argument of Col ellios, I believe. If this is the correct reading, then for reasons I've argued above, the RAW is that there can be no ID, because the NS does not have a S outside of the to-wound roll.

2) The NS has Strength 8, and the clause describing it is merely in an odd place. REading the quoted passage, I do not see how the phrase "the NS has S 8" is limited or modified in any way. As I've argued above, if the rules text of the rules state that it has S8, then when ID performs it's check of finding it's S, it can still find S8.

I can see both readings, but IMO the simplest reading seems to be that the NS has a Strength value.

Polonius: No, I'm treating them as separate processes. Pure RAW says that NS cannot ID because it is SX (undefined). If we grant that the ID test refers to the S(wounding) then you must also use T(wounding), because the two values are linked by the same action.

It would be the same as if we were to evaluate a Model's S and I under Furious Charge (+1S +1I). If the model is +1S, then the model is *also* +1I because both modifiers occur together. You can't be +1S without being +1I.

As for the ways to read the rule:

1) S(wounding) = 8; S(NOT wounding) = X (undefined).

2a) If this interpretation were correct then the NS rule would have been written: "The Neural Shredder has a Strength of 8. Roll to wound as follows: rather than using the target's Toughness, their Leadership is used... The NS has the following profile... S8".

2b) That would be the long form, above. For the short form, the first sentence can be excluded entirely, and the NS can simply be listed as a weapon in the Armoury. After all, we never need a rule or text to specify Bolters as having S4. The only special rule would refer to the oddity of using Ld for Toughness.

When ID performs its check of finding S, if it is finding S8 via referring to the previous action of Wounding, then it must necessarily find T(Ld) at the same time.

The NS has Strength X. That is what the profile says. *Only* when rolling to wound, is the NS S8.

So many eloquent, reasoned and well thought out sides of the dispute.
JHDD-(IMHO)-so well reasoned, I was really impressed.
insaniak-(")-excellent RAW and interp.
Moz(")-awesome.

Nobody resorted to trolling.

Experts in your field.(Of rules and interp!)

I will just D6 the situation as it arises because I agree with all sides.

Weird.....

Big Fri night in Brisbane, smashed(wih friends lol) and lurking Dakka.....

Fri night games rule....

Sincity wrote:

Sincity wrote:You can ID with a NS.
Sincity

In truth , I don't play it that way eather , it's just not worth the argument. That changes nothing , RAW is the way GW has said to solve these issues. Or roll a d6.

Sincity

I must say I have never seen GW state that RAW should be applied in any situation however they do very frequently suggest that if you can not agree then D6 it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Pure RAW says that NS cannot ID because it is SX (undefined).

Pure RAW does nothing of the kind.

Pure RAW says that you suffer Instant Death if you are wounded by something with a Strength at least double your Toughness.

It doesn't matter whether that Strength comes from a weapon profile or a special rule, because no such distinction exists in the ID rules.

If a model is wounded by a Strength 8 hit, then that model was wounded by something with a Strength of 8.

If we grant that the ID test refers to the S(wounding) then you must also use T(wounding), because the two values are linked by the same action.

To wound, yes.

Checking for ID is not the same action.

Insaniak always wants the last word.

; )

Absolutely. I don't come to YMDC to discuss the rules of 40K... I'm just trying to get my name on the last post in every thread.

Hmm... doesn't seem to be working too well so far...

Obviously not.

I agree with the RAW interpretation that Flavius and Insaniak have listed. I have even used my assassin this way many times and nobody has ever questioned it. Because when you point out to them the same premise based argument that Insaniak and Flavius have stated, they agree and play resumes. Quite frankly a callidus assassin is expensive enough as it is just to get her on the table. Having a weapon that has the ability to I.D. T4 characters isn't that big of a deal...she is an assassin after all. Lastly, I really don't know what the big deal is anyways...most characters LD is a 10 so she need's 6's to I.D. anyways...it's not like it happens all the time. About 80% of the time a callidus will just bounce off a unit or character since their attacks and strength are average. Neural Shredding units also runs you the risk of shooting yourself out of charge range...or worse...making the unit run at the end of the shooting phase.

Capt K

Captain K while RAW indeed seems to justify NS = ID but as far as playing within the SotR what you have said fails the litmus test.

- G

Insaniak, I've already answered your question, and will do so again despite your not giving me the same courtesy.

Instant Death says: "When wounded by a weapon with strength double toughness..."

The Neural Shredder says: "Roll to wound as follows: Strength 8 but, rather than..." and also lists "S X" in its profile. "Roll to wound as follows" specifies that the rules that follow are determined to see if a model is wounded. They don't give the weapon S8, they tell you how to wound against leadership values. They tell you how to wound, and ONLY how to wound. If the weapon had S8, the rules would specify so directly (and not out of context as you posit). If it was S8, it would say "S 8" instead of "S X" in the profile.

The BGB says, on p.23: (to paraphrase) "Weapon Strength characteristic is found in the weapon profile..."

As defined on p.23, the strength of a Neural Shredder is "X." Are you refuting the BGB without grounds to do so Insaniak?

So, to summarize, the Neural Shredder determines if a target is wounded (indicated by "roll to wound as follows:") via it's special rules. It's special rules stipulate that the "NS is strength 8 but, rather than using the target's toughness, its leadership is used." Does that say "NS is strength 8 for instant death?" does it say "...Strength 8 on the third tuesday of every month" does it say "...strength 8 in france" does it say "strength 8 against models with a toughness"? NO. It doesn't say any of these things. It says that you determine if the weapon wounds via the process described.

Whereas Instand Death refers to "weapon strength," which is defined in previous pages as the "strength listed in the weapon profile" (abbreviated by "S", as I'm sure we all agree). So, Instant Death only works with weapons that actually have a designated strength. The NS does NOT have a designated strength. It has special rules that determine if the weapon wounds. They say what they say. That's what the RAW is about. You can't assume the rules interact with ID if they don't say so, and I've even proven that they don't.

Respond to that, or know that your argument is entirely invalid, because it's not based on the RAW.

Lock this BS down please.

: ((

- G