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@Deadshane1 so you could say that you get a "blance game" with : nerfed rending genes , crapy glancing hit on Vcannon , now the MC cant shoot two weapons ,then what's left for the nids? some warriors + hormagaunts ? oh I forget horma even cant score now ,hahahaha that's what you called fluff right, and also much more blance .good point.


@Halfpast_Yellow the BS is just an addition to fex's anti-tank ability ,Zilla nidz deal Horde with dakka fex or dakka tyrant, for the horde nidz they are point by point beaten by orks. now we let the gunfex do both jobs and with nerfed Vcannon .

I don't know, I have a feeling some of these rules are bogus. But in case they aren't, I'm glad I stopped building my Ravenwing army at 1,000 points!

Also, it looks like I'm gonna start taking some more Plasma Cannons!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Hmmmm... so... replace Falcons with Assault Aspects on Serpents with Star Engines... Cover with Dark Reapers and/or Fire Prisms...

Mech Eldar is dead. Long live Mech Eldar!

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

Oh yeah! Last I heard it was going to scatter 2d6...not 1d6! With 1.5 blast templates and partials hitting auto....marines only miss on a 6!


'Hear that boys? We don't suck anymore!'

Yeah, but think about how many Mega Blasters you can get in an Ork army.

In fact, check out the cost of the Mega Blaster upgrade on a Death Kopta.

If this rumor is true with only 1d6 inches - BS deviation, and Ork Mega Blasta army could be really interesting...

Sorry to pop your cherry my 'fresh face flower picking eldar youth' but Mega Blastas are not a 'Blast' weapon even though their title might suggest otherwise.

(sorry i couldn't resist your user rank )

spaceman spiff wrote:

Yeah, but think about how many Mega Blasters you can get in an Ork army.

In fact, check out the cost of the Mega Blaster upgrade on a Death Kopta.

If this rumor is true with only 1d6 inches - BS deviation, and Ork Mega Blasta army could be really interesting...

Sorry to pop your cherry my 'fresh face flower picking eldar youth' but Mega Blastas are not a 'Blast' weapon even though their title might suggest otherwise.

(sorry i couldn't resist your user rank )

This is what happens when you take 3 years off from miniature gaming...You lose your finely honed edge...course, could be senility setting in, but I digress.

I was so dazzled by all the new Ork gear to notice they removed the blast from the Mega Blasta. Yup, that's my excuse.

So much for that plan...

Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.

OK, tho this simplification is probably excessive. IMO, 40k has too many coin flips. I'd have been much happier to see 40k split things into 3+ (good) and 5+ (so-so).

Line of Sight:
There are no height levels, all terrain is true LoS (even jungles and woods). They will need to be modeled appropriately if they are to block LoS.

I don't understand why we haven't seen the preorder announcement for the official GW-approved Warhammer 40k Targeter (laser pointer). If this is going to be the rule, then we're going to need the tool.

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

Wow. Blasts just got a *lot* more accurate. You roll a Hit 1/3 of the time, and the remaining 2/3 has average scatter of 3.5", so even IG will score hits almost 3/4 of the time.

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

Looks like this takes care of Tau & Eldar grav tanks. Tau gotta hug cover, so they're basically gunships. Eldar gotta move or die, so they're basically pure, expensive Transports.

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

Pity. The idea that all non-Vehicle Troops picks would be better, as it's clear and simple.

I wonder if Daemons and Allied Inquisitional Troops would count...

Eldar are definitely going to need a rework to have more Troops picks and even cheaper Transports for them if this goes through. Lucky for them that they get a new Codex every edition.

Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.

Nids are going to need rework, too.
______

OK, the clarifications are really helpful. Yay.

While I dis-agree that "nidzilla got what was coming to it," I've always felt that MCs in general, and Nid MC's in particular, were a bit overpowered. Now, in typical GW fashion they will nerf the living hell out of them (ask any Marine player with 5 Rhinos how that feels) until they're never seen again. Seriously, does it make any sense to have MCs fire two weapons on the move when Tanks and Dreads can't?

I think that with the run rule, Close combat fexes are now at least possible, if not exactly strong.

The exact line of sight thing could get wierd.... what if you move a tree to get a unit into a forest? I'm sure time will work it out, but it'll take some getting used to. I swear I still run into people that don't understand area terrain, and now we're geting rid of it.

Nobody used blast, now blast gets awesome. Is anybody suprised? Missile launcher Devs are now even more of a must have, as are arguably Plasma cannons.

the skimmer thing is harsh, pure and simple. Every skimmer in the game was costed (sometimes undercosted) with SMF in mind. If they're now slow and fragile, they're not that good (hey, just like regular vehicles in 4th! Thanks folks, I'll be here all week."

I actually wonder if blasts might be getting _too_ good for their cost. Good thing I just bought 6 more Eldar support weapon platforms in a eBay deal. They were at a comparative disadvatage to Falcons, Walkers and WLs in 4th, but if each of those are catching a nerf perhaps indirect fire is a newly-viable option. Combined with the Troops shakeup and Run! making Wraithguard better, I think I'll be doing some yellow painting in the near future...

Thank god KPs are out (if we can trust these rumors). That is encouraging. I've been convinced that the casualty removal rules won't be that bad (still slow...grumble...), and the LOS stuff looks different but interesting. These parts of the core rules may be a success.

However, nerfing first walkers, then MCs- looks like the nerf bat is being swung by a blind man this time 'round. 'Nidzilla was effectively fixed by the scoring changes already. I'm beginning to wonder if GW playtest outside the developers' immediate circle of friends at all. This really is shaping up to be an assault edition, it looks like. That irks me, as shooting is (for most armies) a more intersting dynamic in an I-go-you-go turn based game like 40K. CC is such a slog, and now it's going to be even more of a majority-rules, overly bland exercise in running at the objective and standing there.

Scoring units- Ravenwing aren't going to be a competitive force anymore in tourneys, nor Saim-Hann, sadly. But any local gaming group that wouldn't house-rule that bikes should score for those armies must be populated by total tools.

Finally, Deadshane- stop smugly belittling the concerns of others who worry (quite rightly) that their carefully collected armies are going to get screwed by the rules changes. Some people are indeed whining, but not so much on this thread, and Stingray wasn't. If you want to be smug, do it over the gaming table. I would be happy to wipe the smile off your face at the Vegas GT or any west-coast tourney (gaming, not real violence). Oh, and more importantly, this is a rules rumor discussion. You aren't contributing anything of worth with personal attacks. Your grandstanding is a pretty obvious and infantile attention-grabbing tactic.

Oh, and read your fluff. You're giving your impression, but if you read all the Tyranid codexes (not just the current one, although it supports this), Desert Raiders, the accounts of the battle for Ultramar, etc. etc. there are many different types of swarm. Heavy assault swarms are common in the stages of planetary assault focussed on killing resisting organisms.

BOLS has been updated with new notes. Full post below with new comments:

Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.

UPDATE: This 4+ cover save applies if you draw LoS through any other unit (friend of foe) other than your target. Normal terrain still has a standarized chart for things from hedges up to bunkers similar to 4th edition.

Line of Sight:
There are no height levels, all terrain is true LoS (even jungles and woods). They will need to be modeled appropriately if they are to block LoS.

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

UPDATE: The scatter distance is 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target.

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

UPDATE: Skimmers do get their cover save if moving at Cruising speed or All-Out.

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

UPDATE: Killpoints are still in, in a limited fashion for one mission variant. You now score a single killpoint for each unit killed regardless of its FOC category.

Perils of the Warp:
Perils now causes an automatic wound, but invulnerable saves are allowed.

UPDATE: You must reroll the invulnerable save if it passed the first time, so perils is still dangerous.

Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.

UPDATE: The jury is still out for Monstrous Creatures firing. There are conflicting reports of their firing ability (either 1 weapon or all weapons)...

My opinion, is the conflicting reports is probably becuase there's truth to both (which is typical when there is conflicting rumors imho). I'd take a guess that MCs will be restricted similar to walkers and other vehicles: you can fire all weapons if you stay still or you can fire one on the move. Seems like the balanced solution in 5ed and would still nerf nidzilla and the dakka build a bit while still leaving nids only real antitank ability intact (sorry but gunfexes going away would make nids nearly unplayable against a vehicle heavy list).

I also think the mobile shooting is being nerfed a bit to balance the LOS changes. Consider now that your own troops provide cover saves so good firing lanes will be at a premium, being able to move and shoot to full affect in such an environment would be a pretty major advantage.

For trees, before area terrain we played that the whole forest was as tall as the tallest tree. That was nice and simple.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The new KP thing would be interesting. Not sound all horribly emo kid whining dramatic, but while the rule is clearly meant to hurt armies with small minimum squads, wouldn't IG still be screwed? If we show up to play, and I have 25 units, and you have 10.... I mean, do the math. After unit #11 dies, I can't win, even if I wipe you out.

I'm calling shenanigans on that one. While IG is the redheaded step child of the big six (Marines, Chaos, Eldar, Orks, Nids, IG) there has to be one guy who realized how unfair it would be.

Sure, but armies with dedicated transports would be similarly screwed since a unit of infantry with a transport is effectively two units, and giving up twice the kill points if both are destroyed.

Or it could simply presage a sea-change of the Imperial Guard Codex - units as Platoons rather than mere Squads, for example.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

Wow. Blasts just got a *lot* more accurate. You roll a Hit 1/3 of the time, and the remaining 2/3 has average scatter of 3.5", so even IG will score hits almost 3/4 of the time.

Yeah. Balances out mortars, grenade launchers and frag missiles nicely, but might overpower battlecannons, Earthshaker shots, and Prism templates for what they cost. Looks like blast templates are the new black in 5th.

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

Looks like this takes care of Tau & Eldar grav tanks. Tau gotta hug cover, so they're basically gunships. Eldar gotta move or die, so they're basically pure, expensive Transports.

Agreed, but (at least the Eldar skimmers) have pretty much always been that way. Occasions for moving in slowly while shooting with Serpents are limited to armies that lack decent S7-8 massed fire. Once you dump your troops, though, you can go to using the Serpents/Falcons as gunships. It is the final comparative nail in the coffin of Falcons, though. I predict Serpent conversion bitz are going to get a lot more expensive on eBay.

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

Pity. The idea that all non-Vehicle Troops picks would be better, as it's clear and simple.

I wonder if Daemons and Allied Inquisitional Troops would count...

Eldar are definitely going to need a rework to have more Troops picks and even cheaper Transports for them if this goes through. Lucky for them that they get a new Codex every edition.

Eldar will still be playable, as for everything that's getting nerfed, something is getting "unlocked" and is newly viable. Falcons, WLs and big jetbike units are out, Harlies downgraded. Wraithguard, Guardian mobs with Embolden, Serpents, possibly support platforms have all gotten better. It sucks to see our current configurations getting nerfed. But those of us who kept our 3rd ed. Guardian mobs around may find them useful again.

Savnock wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Eldar are definitely going to need a rework to have more Troops picks and even cheaper Transports for them if this goes through. Lucky for them that they get a new Codex every edition.

Eldar will still be playable, as for everything that's getting nerfed, something is getting "unlocked" and is newly viable. Falcons, WLs and big jetbike units are out, Harlies downgraded. Wraithguard, Guardian mobs with Embolden, Serpents, possibly support platforms have all gotten better. It sucks to see our current configurations getting nerfed. But those of us who kept our 3rd ed. Guardian mobs around may find them useful again.

Yeah, I know, but Guardian mobs are really un-Fluffy for a dying race. These tweaks will be good incentive for me to focus on my IG for 5th.

Deadshane, you do not truly grasp what these rule changes will do to nids. They will not invalidate nidzilla, they will mandate nidzilla. You will now see 7 100 point monstrous creatures in front of three thropes and a host of cheap stealers, and due to the added fex speed, there's going to be no way out of it.

Enjoy nidzilla 2.0

These clarifications are very much encouraging. Things are looking up!

winterman wrote:
Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.

UPDATE: This 4+ cover save applies if you draw LoS through any other unit (friend of foe) other than your target. Normal terrain still has a standarized chart for things from hedges up to bunkers similar to 4th edition.

Nice. That's a good balance.

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

UPDATE: The scatter distance is 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target.

Also much better. Hmm. Blast weapons will either be a big gamble of wildly effective. Shooting them anywhere near your own troops is much more dangerous, though. This is a good rule, and I'll cautiously say a surprising turn for the more realistic.

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

UPDATE: Skimmers do get their cover save if moving at Cruising speed or All-Out.

Finally, we get a break. Sweet!

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

UPDATE: Killpoints are still in, in a limited fashion for one mission variant. You now score a single killpoint for each unit killed regardless of its FOC category.

In a single mission, that's an interesting enhancement. Sure, it favors lower model-count amries with few units. but it's only one mission, and can be played around if neccessary. IT would have sucked to have to compensate for KPs in every mission.

Perils of the Warp:
Perils now causes an automatic wound, but invulnerable saves are allowed.

UPDATE: You must reroll the invulnerable save if it passed the first time, so perils is still dangerous.

I'm sorry, were psykers too powerful? Apparently the game designers were thinking about 2nd edition, not the last two. This is going to get dropped in house rules in most clubs, I hope. In fact, maybe the silver lining of 5th is that it will encourage the widespread adoption of house rules, maybe even for some competitive settings. Sure would be nice to see the broken parts get fixed as an example to the rest of the gaming community, then passed around (hint hint).

Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.

UPDATE: The jury is still out for Monstrous Creatures firing. There are conflicting reports of their firing ability (either 1 weapon or all weapons)...

My opinion, is the conflicting reports is probably because there's truth to both (which is typical when there is conflicting rumors imho). I'd take a guess that MCs will be restricted similar to walkers and other vehicles: you can fire all weapons if you stay still or you can fire one on the move. Seems like the balanced solution in 5ed and would still nerf nidzilla and the dakka build a bit while still leaving nids only real antitank ability intact (sorry but gunfexes going away would make nids nearly unplayable against a vehicle heavy list).

Scoring and rending changes already would have balanced out the formerly-best Nidzilla builds. This is taking them into the negative zone.

I also think the mobile shooting is being nerfed a bit to balance the LOS changes. Consider now that your own troops provide cover saves so good firing lanes will be at a premium, being able to move and shoot to full affect in such an environment would be a pretty major advantage.

Very good point. I think you've just found the core of a new design philosophy for 5th. That's always been a useful thing, but now it will be a major advantage. Units that have one big shot and high mobility (like Prisms) are getting a serious boost.

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but armies with dedicated transports would be similarly screwed since a unit of infantry with a transport is effectively two units, and giving up twice the kill points if both are destroyed.

Or it could simply presage a sea-change of the Imperial Guard Codex - units as Platoons rather than mere Squads, for example.

IG certainly isn't the Only one hurt by this, but I can distinguish the IG situation from say, dedicated transports. IG not only have to take multile units in their main troops choice, they also only have one unit that can be larger than 10 models (conscripts) only one unit over T3 (Ogryn), and only one model with a save greater than 4+ (Techpriest). So even if I wanted to field fewer, more point dense units, they would not be more durable. Again, you can make the arguement that this is balanced by the IG's ability to field more scoring units for quarters, but again i would distinguish by arguing that every army can take small, point light units, while IG is the only army that can't field large and/or durable units (conscripts not withstanding). Even DE can take 20 man Warrior squads, which are actually capable of damage aside from merely being large and scoring.

I don't think it's insurmountable for IG, especially since I think every IG army will no include 3 LRBTs or Demolishers sitting in cover, so there will be fewer platoons, but it's still kinda stinky.

Ghidorah wrote:Well, I like much of what I've just read. I LOVE that terrain is actual LOS. I frikkin HATED that infinitely tall stand of trees. It annoyed me. However, the bit about shooting through 2" of cover seems a little goofy. Why would a guy in the open get a cover save because you are shooting through 2" of cover? Makes no sense.

I am with you on the LOS thing, I really hate when the guy screen his landraider with a rhino!

Ask some of my Amry and Marine friends who have been in close fire fight in Iraq how a make shift blockade of wood palets, junk and a metal door, saved their skin from a hail of lead and even a grenade ( it hit the door )! They were in an ally with almost no where to go and were engagued by the enemy, both were 20 to 30 feet on either side of the blocakde when the ambush started no one got hit in the inital shooting as the rounds either missed claen or were stopped by the junk pile that and the enemy cant shoot so I hear.

Point is, any thing that is between you and your target can effect the path of your bullet. Some times it works some times it dont ( thats what the die roll is for ) but be sure that 2 inches of cover should have no problem giving you a chance of not taking a round in the chest.

These rumours are all over the place. I think it's time for me to give up speculating, and just wait and see.

The cover portion of these seems to go against the PDF and the last rumor sets "no arguments" rule. These ones seem kinda shaky.

Vandez wrote:These rumours are all over the place. I think it's time for me to give up speculating, and just wait and see.

I have to agree, the situation is hopelessly confused right now, possibly by intent. For all I know, someone is feeding some of these contradictory rumors into the community for kicks.

Considering the community, as a whole, acts like a spastic child it's hardly surprising that someone would spread disinformation just for the wailing and gnashing of teeth that inevitably follows.

What a lovely simile, Nurglitch. Couldn't you have chosen something else?

UPDATE: The scatter distance is 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target.

Nevermind boys, put your guns down. You still suck.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Nevermind boys, put your guns down. You still suck.

I had the same feeling. The new system, especially for my for BS3 models, means pretty much bugger all in the long run. A little under 50% of time, you'd end with a scatter of 0" to 1", the template's size being such that 2" scatter has a high likelihood of hitting empty space and 3" being right out. So all that's happening is that I get to roll 3 dice in lieu of one. Whoop-de-doo.

According to the material I've seen, the scatter is 1D6 if the attacking model did not move, and 2D6 if the attack model did move. If a collection of Blast weapons are used, then they fire a salvo like multiple barrages are currently handled. Furthermore, the idea that Blast markers will hit like Templates seems to be a well-credited rumour, so deviations of 1 or 2 inches won't be so crushing. Finally it seems that the wise men down in the Tactics forum have determined that Ork hordes like that of Redbeard will be the order of the day, meaning that your Devastators can probably close their eyes and shoot backwards between their own legs and still fragmetize a load of Orks.

Am I missing something? Now when you miss with blast you still have a 50% chance to hit. If that's not a bonus I don't know what is.

Nevermind, there's no 'to hit' roll apparently...

It'd be nice to go up against some orks once in a while. So far my Malcador has never gotten to fire at non-Marine targets, and my poorly-optimized IG folds like a lawn chair when subjected to their assault. I don't mind continuing to lose, I'd just rather lose by a furlong than a cable's length.

We'll see. I'll keep using GLs and MLs, and maybe one day, I'll get some use out of them :-D