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How does that make a self-declared rules change "blatantly wrong"? It isn't an interpretation, a claim about what the rules say. It is a house rule instituted by the events that use this FAQ. How can such a thing be "right" or "wrong?" It simply is.

Sorry for coming into this with my two cents a few days late.

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a Psychic test in order to use the power. If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player. This move is not slowed by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal. Victims may not be moved off the table, into impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models. After this, the affected unit must take a Pinning test."


I copied the preceding from tegeus-Cromis' page one post.

It says move them 2d6". Not up to 2d6". The distance is written as an absolute amount. Now you could move each one of the models individually in a criss-cross fashion to pull them together a bit so long as they are each moved the full distance of 2d6".

I don't recall ever seeing the phrase "bendy move" in the BGB.

Joram wrote:
I don't recall ever seeing the phrase "bendy move" in the BGB.

It's just a general term. Without "bendy move"-ing everything in the game moves in straight lines only. But it is a little cheap to be able to say "I zig zagged all your dudes when I lashed them so instead of 8" they moved 5" and are now they're in perfect formation to take a flamer to the face" although I do it, very often. No one I've ever played has had a problem with it.

I understand the "blatantly wrong" bit too. That FAQ just breaks the rules, they are too vague to handle Lash as is. The game really isn't designed in mind for tournament play. But using that FAQ as if it is the end all be all to the rules is wrong. Blatantly wrong because it simply changes many rules people come to the mighty internets to argue about. Lash should, in my opinion (which doesn't make it any more valid than anyone else), be able to move units out of formation. Sometimes you need to move a unit into a corridor that is 6" wide but the way the unit is formed it is 8" across and wide. By the fluff and rules of Lash it can be done. Your psychically commanding the group to move somewhere they aren't going to chime in and say "We can't do that, Allen, Bob, Jim and Terry really don't want to not be standing like this, so we're not going to be able to go there, pick somewhere else".

In all fairness, RAW never says to test each time a unit enters terrain. Only to test for each model in the unit. Technically running of 14 different minefields should not be harder than running over 1, so long as it is done in one round of movement.

shrug.

inquisitor_bob wrote:I have a couple of questions regarding the Lash of Submission.

1. Do I have to make a leadership check to target a unit that is not the closest target?

2. If the lash of submisstion works can the caster charge another unit even though the lash is used instead of shooting?

Thanks

Yes to both.

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon.

Lash is a shooting attack, regardless of its lack of "weapon" statlines. Therefore any requirements/restrictions applicable to shooting or derived from shooting apply.

DeathGod wrote:

inquisitor_bob wrote:I have a couple of questions regarding the Lash of Submission.

1. Do I have to make a leadership check to target a unit that is not the closest target?

2. If the lash of submisstion works can the caster charge another unit even though the lash is used instead of shooting?

Thanks

Yes to both.

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon.

Lash is a shooting attack, regardless of its lack of "weapon" statlines. Therefore any requirements/restrictions applicable to shooting or derived from shooting apply.

Actually no. Lash is used instead of a shooting attack but does not work like it. It has a special condition that say "pick any target within". That makes it diffrent from a normal shooting attack.

DeathGod is correct. If a psycker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of another ranged weapon, then pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24" subject to the normal rules for shooting ranged weapons. What's different from a normal shooting attack is that you don't roll to hit, you simply pass the Psychic Test necessary to cast the power.

Not sure where you read the "subject to the normal rules for shooting ranged weapons" in regards of lash, but the rule for it only states that you pick any non-vehicle enemy unit.

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."

Yeah, but that says nothing about how you choose a target or how the power actually works. Only that you use it instead of another ranged weapon.

According to the rule book all powers works as shooting attacks unless othervise specified in the power and in the lash description it do specify how to pick the target.

Kallbrand:

If something is used instead of another ranged weapon, then it follows that something follows the rules for ranged weapons. So you're right, the Lash of Submission rules do specify how to pick a target: They specify to follow the shooting rules with a range of 24" and restricted to non-vehicle units.

Targeting for a ranged weapon or any replancement for them is covered in RAW as Nurglitch points out.

If you want to ignore the text, feel free. The rules themselves are clear and in text for reference. The rules show how to choose a target and how to resolve the difference from "regular" shooting attacks, which is referenced in the text for Lash.

I'm with Nurglitch for once. "Another ranged weapon" implies that Lash is a ranged weapon, which means it needs to comply with the normal rules for shooting.

Im a bit curious how you get the "pick a non-vehicle unit within 24 and visible to the psycher" to include that it follows the normal shooting rules. That actually states that it does something else then follow them. The fact that you use it instead of another ranged weapon doesnt say anything that overrides that.

The bgb even says that if a power does specify how to pick a target, it overrides the normal shooting rules.

Anyway, there have been a marthon debate over the net about it and it will get FAQed and changed(with 5th ed.) so its easier to understand soon. And unless the FAQ changes anything significant you will be able to choose whatever you want within range.

OK, again I have to point out tegeus-Cromis' page one post. Unless he misquoted the Lash of Submission rules, it clearly states "pick any non-vehicle unit".

I can honestly say you guys are reading too much into this psychic power. Making assumptions about which rules it uses or doesn't use.

It should be as simple as this:

1-Choose a target non-vehicle enemy unit within 24" and visible to the psyker.

2-Take psychic test.

3-Roll 2d6 and move the enemy unit that far in inches. Ignoring difficult terrain, testing for dangerous terrain, etc.

4-Enemy unit takes a pinning test.

I don't understand where any of you think that the unit can move less than the amount rolled. I will grant that if you choose to move the enemy unit toward a table edge or your own units than they will have to stop short of the total rolled. But those are the only conditions supplied by the psychic power.

Bendy-movement is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard in 40k.

Joram wrote:OK, again I have to point out tegeus-Cromis' page one post. Unless he misquoted the Lash of Submission rules, it clearly states "pick any non-vehicle unit".

I can honestly say you guys are reading too much into this psychic power. Making assumptions about which rules it uses or doesn't use.

It should be as simple as this:

I agree with that, but there are addendums to what you said.

1-Choose a target non-vehicle enemy unit within 24" and visible to the psyker.

2-Take psychic test.

2a - Make a target priority test if said unit is not the closest viable enemy unit.

3-Roll 2d6 and move the enemy unit that far in inches. Ignoring difficult terrain, testing for dangerous terrain, etc.

4-Enemy unit takes a pinning test.

I don't understand where any of you think that the unit can move less than the amount rolled. I will grant that if you choose to move the enemy unit toward a table edge or your own units than they will have to stop short of the total rolled. But those are the only conditions supplied by the psychic power.

Bendy-movement is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard in 40k.

Show me where it specifies that a unit has to move in a straight line.
No opinions. Facts only, please.

Where it says to move them 2d6", it does not specify HOW they must be moved (re: straight or "bendy" lines). They can be moved in a square, if the Sorcerer's player chooses.

Eric

The psychic power says move them 2d6". Again, I repeat. It does not say "up to 2d6".
It also says "any unit". The word "any" implies standard targeting rules don't apply.

Now since I don't have it in front and am using someone else's quote of the rule, I could be in error. But I already said that.

Any diagram in the movement or assault sections of the BGB show movement in a straight line. The only reason movement might be "bendy" is to go around difficult, dangerous, or impassable terrain. But these inches of movement are accounted for due to there being rules covering them, but bendy movement doesn't exist.

Let us just assume that the unit in question is completely in the open. Lash of Submission user rolls a 9" result. If you move them 3" from point A to point B, does this count as moving them 9" just because a player says so. No, it IS 3" of movement. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

Show me Bendy movement anywhere in a rulebook, FAQ, or any other official GW publication.

Joram wrote:The psychic power says move them 2d6". Again, I repeat. It does not say "up to 2d6".
It also says "any unit". The word "any" implies standard targeting rules don't apply.

Your assertion of the text is correct. Your inference of its' meaning is not.
Unless otherwise mentioned, Psyhic powers work like shooting. For an example of what DOESN'T work like shooting, and how it is worded, take a gander at the rest of the Psychic powers in the codex. Hopefully, you'll see the diffeence.

Joram wrote:Any diagram in the movement or assault sections of the BGB show movement in a straight line. The only reason movement might be "bendy" is to go around difficult, dangerous, or impassable terrain. But these inches of movement are accounted for due to there being rules covering them, but bendy movement doesn't exist.

Just because it doesn't show a curved or bent line doesn't mean that movement is impossible. If you reason in your post that we can't move in a crooked line for one purpose (Lash), because the diagrams in the book only show straight lines then, in the next sentence you imply that it's okay not to move crooked for reasons you approve of (going around terrain), you totally undermine your own credibility. Clearly, you're saying "You can't, because I don't think you should," even if that isn't your words. Be consistent.

Joram wrote:Let us just assume that the unit in question is completely in the open. Lash of Submission user rolls a 9" result. If you move them 3" from point A to point B, does this count as moving them 9" just because a player says so. No, it IS 3" of movement. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

You are correct. It is a fact that moving 3" forward is moving 3". If that same piece moves 3" forward, 3" back, then 3" forward again, how much is that? If you did your math correctly, you'll come up with the answer as 9". If you didn't, yo should go back & add 3+3+3 again.
Note that the rule says the models MOVES 2d6 inches, not DISPLACES 2d6". If the rule was that it had to displace that distance, then nobody could reasonably argue against your point.

Joram wrote:Show me Bendy movement anywhere in a rulebook, FAQ, or any other official GW publication.

How would you like that proof? Written or in imagery?

Eric

Written.

Joram wrote:

Bendy-movement is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard in 40k.

Really? So if models are standing around the corner of an impassable building and they move around the corner you take the straight distance from their starting point to their ending point? You let them essentially pass right over the impassable terrain at no penalty because a model's move is determined solely by its ending point in relation to its starting point?

I'm sorry but that is utterly ridiculous.


The 'path' a model moves does indeed matter in 40k. The above example (moving around an impassable object) is one illustration of this point, but there are others.

The Skimmers Moving Fast rule dictates that vehicles must end up more than 6" from their starting point in order to get the bonus. This indicates that it is possible to move 6" forward and then 6" back to the same spot, a skimmer just won't get the SMF bonus if it does so.

The Turbo-boosting rules also reinforce this point as they dictate that a model must move more than 18" in a straight line in order to get the bonus. Again, the reference to moving in a straight line illustrates that movement is performed along a 'path' instead of simply being determined by the final position of the model vs. its starting position.

Joram wrote:Show me Bendy movement anywhere in a rulebook, FAQ, or any other official GW publication.

Done. Page 44 shows a model moving in a way that MUST be "bendy". The bottom picture shows 3 Assault Marines performing a Pile In move. The middle model *can not* move through another model. Therefore it must be "bending" around the model his arrow crosses.

Well, the bendy camp is making a number of good points - but are we agreed that if bendy movement is okay then models that are falling back get to use it too? I ask because fall back moves are compulsory movement, (I know, not a defined term) much like lash is compulsory movement; so the rules that apply to lash seem to apply to fall-back moves, and vice versa.

I ask also to get the explanation, because bendy movement makes fallback moves a joke, in many instances, and will nullify the chance for any unit falling back off the board. I know what the RAW says, and frankly it seems to nullify fallback moves (except where beneficial to the falling back unit, of course)

1) Lash is never defined as Compulsory movement.

2) During a fall back you can, indeed, use "bendy" movement so long as you stay within the corridor defined by the outermost models in the unit. (BGB, p.48).

Well, the new FAQ takes care of the disputes on Lash ( I think.) I see that GW is careful not to say that a unit can be clumped (despite the explicit question on that point) but they lay out enough rules on how Lash is used that it is indisputable that models can be clumped.


Sigh. Go go powergamers!

Democratus wrote:1) Lash is never defined as Compulsory movement.

So it is optional?

No. You are wrong. The move must be made. No "up to" or "may" move involved.
Unless you wrote in there yourself.

Well, regardless of who was right or wrong earlier, new developments mean that Democratus is right now.

I also agree with that. ^_^

I daresay that FAQ is relevant where valid - but the Q&A about why doesnt change the text quoted. FAQs are as relevant as the venue they are written for.

Um, that's an official GW errata/FAQ document.

yep.

Don't waste my time.